No Prayer in Public Schools !

[Caroljo]

Everyone can pray whenever they want...
I pray several times a day, wherever i am it doesn't matter because i pray in "silence". You don't have to bow your head or get on your knees to do this.

There are many kids in school that pray...many have been able to do the "Meet at the Flagpole" prayers and as far as i know nobody has ever stopped them.
I have heard alot about kids getting in trouble at school for praying though, and are told they can't bring Bibles to school. One young girl at a school near us was praying with another girl in the hallway because the other girl had some family problems. They were both taken to the principal and told if it happened again they would be kicked out. If it's between 2 or more people that WANT to pray and not interrupting or bothering anyone else, they should be allowed, it's their "right".

A few years ago at graduation in our town, the Valedictorian was told she could not say a prayer. So....at the end of her speech, almost ALL of the graduating class started reciting the Lords Prayer. Then almost ALL of the people in the bleachers said it right along with them! That was AWESOME! The looks on the administrations faces were priceless! Lol!

They stopped them at our local elementary school. They were holding prayers around the flag in the morning before school. The flagpole was on a mound in the middle of the parking lot, some parent complained and voila, the volunteer prayer meeting was cancelled for everybody. BTW, only student participated, led by a 6th grader, no teachers or faculty were there.

Local junior high, they had 15 minutes set aside everyday for private reading. They were told they had to bring something from home to read or get something from the library, no textbook reading during that time. A boy brought his Bible and it was taken away from him and he was told he wasn't allowed to read it at school even during their "private" reading time. It took a schoolboard meeting full of angry parents to change that.

I can just picture what would happen if a Muslim boy had his Q'ran taken away from him.

THIS is the type of thing that really upsets me. One or two people complain and it's all over. This is when i get mad about the whole thing, because one non-believer can complain and the schools will back that person all the way. But it would take MANY Christian parents complaining before they would get anywhere with this, and then they still might not!

And the issue with bringing a Bible to school to just sit a read, quietly, by yourself, is another. Some people hate Christianity, or any religion, so much that they can't allow it and they make up their own rules to keep it out. Good for those parents for standing up for this!!

I don't agree with the OP that NO prayer is allowed in schools...because like i said, anyone can pray any time - without anyone else actually knowing it. But it's the blatant hatred some show for our religion in cases like this that really piss me off! And too many times Christians just let it happen. GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!

And we ALL know what would happen if a Muslim child had his Quran taken away ! ! !

 

[daveman]

While simultaneously ignoring the right's hypocrisy.

Want a cookie?

What hypocrisy from the right?

Exactly.


Would like chocolate chip or an oreo?

So, you can't point any out. Okey-dokey.

 

[daveman]

Lots of hypocrisy from some on the left who want no religious expression in the public square (get over it, weirdos) and from some on the right who want government-sanctioned and -directed religious expression (you get over it as well).

Who's that?

 

[JakeStarkey]

caroljo, people hate for whatever and no reasons.

Let the Muslim boy have his Quran, the Christian girl her Bible, any Jewish child a Torah, any child his faith beliefs in writing.

Put all believers together in action and do the right thing at school boards.

Any unbeliever or non-believer or other-believer has no right to interfere with a child's quiet time with faith reading. Period.

 

[Gadawg73]

Everyone can pray whenever they want...
I pray several times a day, wherever i am it doesn't matter because i pray in "silence". You don't have to bow your head or get on your knees to do this.

There are many kids in school that pray...many have been able to do the "Meet at the Flagpole" prayers and as far as i know nobody has ever stopped them.
I have heard alot about kids getting in trouble at school for praying though, and are told they can't bring Bibles to school. One young girl at a school near us was praying with another girl in the hallway because the other girl had some family problems. They were both taken to the principal and told if it happened again they would be kicked out. If it's between 2 or more people that WANT to pray and not interrupting or bothering anyone else, they should be allowed, it's their "right".

A few years ago at graduation in our town, the Valedictorian was told she could not say a prayer. So....at the end of her speech, almost ALL of the graduating class started reciting the Lords Prayer. Then almost ALL of the people in the bleachers said it right along with them! That was AWESOME! The looks on the administrations faces were priceless! Lol!

They stopped them at our local elementary school. They were holding prayers around the flag in the morning before school. The flagpole was on a mound in the middle of the parking lot, some parent complained and voila, the volunteer prayer meeting was cancelled for everybody. BTW, only student participated, led by a 6th grader, no teachers or faculty were there.

Local junior high, they had 15 minutes set aside everyday for private reading. They were told they had to bring something from home to read or get something from the library, no textbook reading during that time. A boy brought his Bible and it was taken away from him and he was told he wasn't allowed to read it at school even during their "private" reading time. It took a schoolboard meeting full of angry parents to change that.

I can just picture what would happen if a Muslim boy had his Q'ran taken away from him.

THIS is the type of thing that really upsets me. One or two people complain and it's all over. This is when i get mad about the whole thing, because one non-believer can complain and the schools will back that person all the way. But it would take MANY Christian parents complaining before they would get anywhere with this, and then they still might not!

And the issue with bringing a Bible to school to just sit a read, quietly, by yourself, is another. Some people hate Christianity, or any religion, so much that they can't allow it and they make up their own rules to keep it out. Good for those parents for standing up for this!!

I don't agree with the OP that NO prayer is allowed in schools...because like i said, anyone can pray any time - without anyone else actually knowing it. But it's the blatant hatred some show for our religion in cases like this that really piss me off! And too many times Christians just let it happen. GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!

And we ALL know what would happen if a Muslim child had his Quran taken away ! ! !

The law has to be respected whether one or one million complain.
If NO ONE complained, what does that have to do with anything concerning what is right and what is wrong?

 

[Caroljo]

They stopped them at our local elementary school. They were holding prayers around the flag in the morning before school. The flagpole was on a mound in the middle of the parking lot, some parent complained and voila, the volunteer prayer meeting was cancelled for everybody. BTW, only student participated, led by a 6th grader, no teachers or faculty were there.

Local junior high, they had 15 minutes set aside everyday for private reading. They were told they had to bring something from home to read or get something from the library, no textbook reading during that time. A boy brought his Bible and it was taken away from him and he was told he wasn't allowed to read it at school even during their "private" reading time. It took a schoolboard meeting full of angry parents to change that.

I can just picture what would happen if a Muslim boy had his Q'ran taken away from him.

THIS is the type of thing that really upsets me. One or two people complain and it's all over. This is when i get mad about the whole thing, because one non-believer can complain and the schools will back that person all the way. But it would take MANY Christian parents complaining before they would get anywhere with this, and then they still might not!

And the issue with bringing a Bible to school to just sit a read, quietly, by yourself, is another. Some people hate Christianity, or any religion, so much that they can't allow it and they make up their own rules to keep it out. Good for those parents for standing up for this!!

I don't agree with the OP that NO prayer is allowed in schools...because like i said, anyone can pray any time - without anyone else actually knowing it. But it's the blatant hatred some show for our religion in cases like this that really piss me off! And too many times Christians just let it happen. GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!

And we ALL know what would happen if a Muslim child had his Quran taken away ! ! !

The law has to be respected whether one or one million complain.
If NO ONE complained, what does that have to do with anything concerning what is right and what is wrong?

I understand that. But what kids do on their own time, it isn't disrupting anyone else, they aren't pushing their religion on other kids, then there's no problem with it. I'm talking about ALL religions, not just Christian. There is nothing in the consititution stating that this is against the law. If ALL religious activities are banned from one religion at schools, it needs to be banned for ALL. But we seem to see alot more tolerance for the Islamic religion than any other. All because they're afraid to upset them, but it's ok to do whatever to Christians.

 

[Dragon]

The Wild Hunt » Buncombe County School Blinks in Pagan Inclusion Test

This is a perfect illustration of the fact that, for many Christians, a desire to have prayer in schools and other Christian religious activity is NOT about religious freedom -- it's about denying the religious freedom of others.

A public school in North Carolina had a policy of allowing Bibles to be offered for distribution to students by a third party, the Gideons. The school was not overtly sponsoring this, but permitted the use of school property to do it. A Pagan parent objected, and received this response:

Jackie Byerly, principal at North Windy Ridge, defended the availability of the Bibles. She said they were not handed out, and students had the option to take them. She checked with Superintendent Tony Baldwin and was given permission to make them available. She said the Bibles arrived Monday morning from a local group of Gideons International, and the box containing the books was opened in the main office. Byerly said the students picked them up during their break time. “If another group wishes to do the same, I plan on handling that the same way as I have handled this,” she said.”

Sounds reasonable enough, right? So the parent and some friends put together Pagan literature and presented them to the school for distribution in the same way as the Bibles. And that, interestingly enough, provoked THIS response:

We were there to deliver the materials that she was assured would be “made available” in the same way the Gideon material was, right before the winter break. No surprise to find that, in consultation with the system’s superintendent Dr. Baldwin, the principal Jackie Byerly and asst principal Danny Fusco couldn’t do that at all because the central office was reviewing its policy regarding religious materials in schools. They suggested that they would “hold onto” the books, in case the school system needed to review them for appropriate content, once the policy was vetted.

And the school went on to declare as follows:

"This whole thing has raised an issue of were we in compliance with any laws or were we not,” Blunt said. “There’s a lot of gray area. Perhaps we were in the wrong, and that’s why we’re going to review.”

Blunt also noted that a group in New York offered to send them 500 Qurans, and that feedback on their policy has been “mixed.”

I'll just bet it has.

And the Pagans who initiated the protest had this to say after all this went down:

The Earth religions community is frankly tired of dealing with this every few years. As long as any child in a public school system is bullied, coerced or ostracized for the spiritual path of their family and themselves, the situation is not fixed and the school environment is not safe. There will be more media, more “good Christian” people threatening violence, more bullying and “othering” before this is settled. But settled it will be. Of this you can be certain.

Can we be done with the pretense, do you think?

 

[JakeStarkey]

Let the children bring their materials, permit their use as long as such use does not disrupe the educational process or infringe on others who want not to hear about it.

This is not hard.

 

[AmericanFirst]

In 1963 the Supreme Court ruled no prayer in public schools.

This has lead to many public schools not allowing Christians to pray at graduation ceremonies, to no prayers at sport events.
The idea is that Public Schools can not sponsor a religion.

But a public high school in Michigan which is 90% Muslim can.
Fordson High School - not a peep about this any where in the news.
No one is taking this on as a public school sponsoring a religion.
CBS: Muslims Students at Public School Pray Before Game - YouTube

Why is it that no one is taking this school to court?

Then people wonder why christians are saying this is war against christianty.

If the coach was leading the prayer, then it's "organized" and that's a "no no".

If the students spontaneously pray, then "so what"?

Did you notice, it was in the boy's locker room? No one was graduating. The right wing wants to turn this into a Christian police state. We can't let any religion do that. We have to fight the "occult".

If you don't want religion in schools then idiots like you need to speak up about muslims allowed to pray and not the one true faith, Christianity. There are plenty of cases of Christians being persecuted and muslims being allowed to practice. The "provide a link" cry when you idiots do not agree doesn't work with me, I know the truth.

 

[Dragon]

If you don't want religion in schools then idiots like you need to speak up about muslims allowed to pray and not the one true faith, Christianity. There are plenty of cases of Christians being persecuted and muslims being allowed to practice. The "provide a link" cry when you idiots do not agree doesn't work with me, I know the truth.

You wouldn't know the truth if it bit you on the ass. I know because I've seen it do so and it hasn't fazed you a bit. That's what dogma does: it closes the mind, locks down thinking, and blinds you to the truth.

Every single alleged instance of "Christians being persecuted" has proven, so far, to be one of Christians being denied the privilege of persecuting others. Which is, of course, exactly what you want to do, you with your "one true faith" garbage.

Dogma is totalitarianism. You are the enemy of freedom.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Christians wanting to "witness" to others in government space is not persecution, ipso facto, dragon, but the insisting they have the right to do to others who would rather not have to tolerate such behavior borders on persecution.

Any who are having problems with private prayer or reflection or faith reading in government space, simply inform the authorities that your child will continue to do so, and if the school authorities interfere, you will indeed go to court and expect to get a very nice settlement from the school.

 

[Dragon]

Christians wanting to "witness" to others in government space is not persecution, ipso facto, dragon, but the insisting they have the right to do to others who would rather not have to tolerate such behavior borders on persecution.

True enough, nevertheless they arise from the same source: an arrogant belief in special divine favor and a contempt for liberty. Given a political climate in which persecution (properly so called) was tolerated, they would engage in it. And fears of being persecuted themselves is pure projection; historically, most persecution of Christians has been done by Christians, not by non-Christians.

Truly, dogma has no use for freedom, and dogmatists see freedom as loathed by God. To a dogmatist -- and in their view, to God -- freedom consists of heresy, apostasy, and sin. Dogmatic religion ranks right up there with fascism and Communism for totalitarian tendencies.

The best thing our founding fathers ever did was to lock these bastards out of power by means of the First Amendment and separation of church and state. We must never, never, never relax our guard about this. They are not to be trusted with power.

 

[daveman]

The Wild Hunt » Buncombe County School Blinks in Pagan Inclusion Test

This is a perfect illustration of the fact that, for many Christians, a desire to have prayer in schools and other Christian religious activity is NOT about religious freedom -- it's about denying the religious freedom of others.

A public school in North Carolina had a policy of allowing Bibles to be offered for distribution to students by a third party, the Gideons. The school was not overtly sponsoring this, but permitted the use of school property to do it. A Pagan parent objected, and received this response:

Jackie Byerly, principal at North Windy Ridge, defended the availability of the Bibles. She said they were not handed out, and students had the option to take them. She checked with Superintendent Tony Baldwin and was given permission to make them available. She said the Bibles arrived Monday morning from a local group of Gideons International, and the box containing the books was opened in the main office. Byerly said the students picked them up during their break time. “If another group wishes to do the same, I plan on handling that the same way as I have handled this,” she said.”

Sounds reasonable enough, right? So the parent and some friends put together Pagan literature and presented them to the school for distribution in the same way as the Bibles. And that, interestingly enough, provoked THIS response:

We were there to deliver the materials that she was assured would be “made available” in the same way the Gideon material was, right before the winter break. No surprise to find that, in consultation with the system’s superintendent Dr. Baldwin, the principal Jackie Byerly and asst principal Danny Fusco couldn’t do that at all because the central office was reviewing its policy regarding religious materials in schools. They suggested that they would “hold onto” the books, in case the school system needed to review them for appropriate content, once the policy was vetted.

And the school went on to declare as follows:

"This whole thing has raised an issue of were we in compliance with any laws or were we not,” Blunt said. “There’s a lot of gray area. Perhaps we were in the wrong, and that’s why we’re going to review.”

Blunt also noted that a group in New York offered to send them 500 Qurans, and that feedback on their policy has been “mixed.”

I'll just bet it has.

And the Pagans who initiated the protest had this to say after all this went down:

The Earth religions community is frankly tired of dealing with this every few years. As long as any child in a public school system is bullied, coerced or ostracized for the spiritual path of their family and themselves, the situation is not fixed and the school environment is not safe. There will be more media, more “good Christian” people threatening violence, more bullying and “othering” before this is settled. But settled it will be. Of this you can be certain.

Can we be done with the pretense, do you think?

You mean the pretense that the actions of a few in one school district represent all conservatives?

Yes, let's be done with that one.

 

[JakeStarkey]

We need to stop labeling a few wacks on far right or far left as representative of everybody in those wings. Daveman and I don't agree on much, but on this one I believe we find common ground.

 

[Gadawg73]

We need to stop labeling a few wacks on far right or far left as representative of everybody in those wings. Daveman and I don't agree on much, but on this one I believe we find common ground.

Same here.

 

[Dragon]

You mean the pretense that the actions of a few in one school district represent all conservatives?

Yes, let's be done with that one.

Dave, "conservatism" is such a nebulous, poorly-defined ideology that there is no set of ideas that can be said to represent all "conservatives."

Plenty of "conservatives" want nothing to do with the religious right. Obviously, the actions of this school district are not representative of THOSE "conservatives." That it is representative of the religious right I maintain nonetheless.

 

[daveman]

You mean the pretense that the actions of a few in one school district represent all conservatives?

Yes, let's be done with that one.

Dave, "conservatism" is such a nebulous, poorly-defined ideology that there is no set of ideas that can be said to represent all "conservatives."

Plenty of "conservatives" want nothing to do with the religious right. Obviously, the actions of this school district are not representative of THOSE "conservatives." That it is representative of the religious right I maintain nonetheless.

You lack the authority to define people and labels.

 

[Dragon]

You lack the authority to define people and labels.

That requires no authority.

 

[daveman]

You lack the authority to define people and labels.

That requires no authority.

It does if you don't want to be ridiculed.

Apparently, you enjoy being ridiculed.

Nnevertheless, if you can't make your argument using the standard accepted meanings of words, your argument isn't worth making.

 

[Dragon]

It does if you don't want to be ridiculed.

You will ridicule me regardless because you ridicule everyone you disagree with. That's just how you roll. Most people won't. Most don't. I can live with you being the odd one who does.

Nnevertheless, if you can't make your argument using the standard accepted meanings of words, your argument isn't worth making.

I made the argument that I was actually making just fine. I didn't make the straw man you assigned to me, namely that all "conservatives" behave like that school, because I neither tried to nor believe in it. That's the point of straw men after all.