No One Has a Right to Health Care

What Are Our "Rights"?

You hear an awful lot about our "rights" these days. And justly so-- our rights, in this country, are our most valuable possession, outside of life itself. And some people say that our basic rights, are even more important than life. When Patrick Henry defiantly told the British government during colonial times, "Give me liberty or give me death!", he was stating that he considered a life without liberty, to be worse than no life at all (death).

So, what are our rights?

The Declaration of Independence mentions a few, and implies that there are others. So does the Constitution-- in fact, it names many, and categorically states that those aren't the only rights people have.

The Declaration says that among our rights, are "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness". It also says that these were given to us "by [our] Creator". Take that as you will, depending on whatever religious outlook you hold. But one of the implications is that, wherever our rights came from, they were NOT granted us by government, or by our fellow men at all. We had them long before government existed. And these various government documents simply say that government cannot take them away or interfere with them.

Here we refer, of course, only to normal law-abiding citizens. The Constitution contains the phrase "except by due course of law" in many places. If you rob someone, assault him, destroy his property, murder him etc., then you can legitimately be deprived of liberty (you go to jail), property (you get fined), or even life in some extreme cases (Death Penalty). Outside of such lawbreaking, your rights are held inviolate.

But today, our "rights" seem to be multiplying without end. This is not necessarily bad-- as we said, rights are extremely valuable. But, are we getting ahead of ourselves, granting to ourselves so many things under the name of "rights"?

"Old Rights"

Some are pretty indisputable, such as the ones mentioned in the Declaration. The ones mentioned in the Constitution, especially in the first ten Amendments (which was even called the "Bill of Rights" by its authors), are similarly vital... though they seem to be undergoing a methodical erosion. Freedom of religion, right to peaceably assemble, freedom of speech and of the press, the right to keep and bear arms, etc. all are very basic, and it is scary to think of trying to exist in a country in which any of these do not exist.

New "rights"

But lately we have heard about other "rights", such as the right to work, the right to decent medical treatment, the right to a decent standard of living. These all sound salutary-- what kind of society would we have, if working for a living were forbidden, decent health care were forbidden, etc.?

But there is a big gap between "forbidden" and "compulsory". The rights found in the country's founding documents, are compulsory, to the extent that we all have them whether we want them or not (who wouldn't want them?), and no one can take them away.

What about, say, the right to decent medical treatment? Those who favor this "right", point out that they don't necessarily mean the rare, exotic, super-expensive treatments; nor "elective" procedures such as cosmetic liposuction or a luxury suite in the hospital. They usually mean that, if you get sick or injured, you have the "right" to have a doctor look at you, make sure the problem isn't unusually dangerous, and administer the routine treatments needed to help you on the way back to good health. An absence of such routine treatment, could occasionally put your life in peril, obviously-- a simple broken bone could lead to infection if untreated, and possibly far more. But there are differences between the "Old Rights", as we've called the ones in the founding documents, and these "New 'Rights'".

Your "right to life" protects something that no man gave you-- you simply had it, from the day you were born. Nobody had to go to extraordinary effort to create it for you, outside of natural processes that move forward on their own without deliberate effort or guidance by humans, government, etc.

Same with the "right to liberty". You were your own man, as it were, the day you were born. Nobody had to go to special effort to create that status for you. In fact, they would have had to go to considerable effort to take those things away, by deliberately coming to you and killing you; or by building a jail and imprisoning you etc. If they leave you alone, you have life and liberty, and can pursue happiness. They have to work at it to deprive you of those things.

The Difference in the "New 'Rights'"

But this isn't the case with what we've called "New 'Rights'". In order for you to get the kind of routine medical treatment its advocates describe, somebody has to stop what he is doing and perform work for you-- the doctor who examines you, the clerk who sets up your appointment, the people who built the office or hospital where you get treatment.

If this routine medical treatment is to be called a "right" on par with our "Old Rights", doesn't that mean that you must be given it when needed? And doesn't it follow, then, that others must be compelled to do the normal things needed to treat you?

Uh-oh.

How does this compulsion upon those others (doctors, clerks etc.) fit in with THEIR rights? They "have" to treat you? What if their schedules are full-- do they have to bump another patient to make room for you? What if they were spending precious quality time with their families-- do they have to abandon their own kids, to fulfill your "right" to treatment that only they can give? Doesn't this fit the description of "involuntary servitude"?

This is an important difference between the rights envisioned by the country's founders, and the new "rights" advocated by more modern pundits. In order to secure your "old rights", people merely had to leave you alone... do nothing to bother you. in fact, they were required to. But these new so-called "rights", required that people go out of their way to actively contribute to you.

And that "requirement", in fact violates THEIR rights-- specifically, their right to liberty. They must be left free to live their lives as THEY chose-- free from compulsion to come and help you out. If they want to help you, that's fine-- often it's the decent and moral thing to do. But they cannot be forced to help you, no matter how much you need the help.

These new "rights", are in fact not rights at all. They are obligations upon others, imposed on them without their agreement or consent.

Beware of announcements that you have the "right" to this or that. Ask yourself if this "right", forces someone else to do something for you, that he didn't previously agree to. If it does, it's not a "right" possessed by you. It's an attempt by the announcer, to force others into servitude... an attempt, in fact, to violate the others' rights.
 
Even prior to the ACA nobody was denied access to healthcare. If you walked into a publicly funded hospital with a stab wound or drug overdose they were required to take care of you.
An E.R. charges a thousand dollars for a visit, where people with pneumonia, gastroenteritis, panic attacks, etc. go when a doctor's visit would be vastly less expensive, if they had the insurance coverage. Who's really paying?
I am paying for it, as are other taxpayers. Nonetheless, I have no interest in paying for your "preventative care", rubbers, or cock enhancement surgery. However, since I have no desire to move elsewhere to live with Muslims and other trash I am stuck having to pay for YOUR healthcare, aren't I?
And I pay for yours. Where's the unfairness in that?
 
Even prior to the ACA nobody was denied access to healthcare. If you walked into a publicly funded hospital with a stab wound or drug overdose they were required to take care of you.
An E.R. charges a thousand dollars for a visit, where people with pneumonia, gastroenteritis, panic attacks, etc. go when a doctor's visit would be vastly less expensive, if they had the insurance coverage. Who's really paying?

Since more people have insurance now, those costs are dropping. Again, plenty of information about that in the ObamaCare forum (see Greenbeard's posts/threads in particular).

As for why people go to the ER for those things, they very often become critical after the doctor's gone home for the day; the ER is open 24/7. If you're struggling to breathe on a Friday evening because of pneumonia or asthma, it's a little inconvenient to wait until Monday morning.

There are walk-in clinics in some places, but they too keep "business hours." When the walk-in clinic and your doctor's office are closed, who ya gonna call?
I agree. I was replying to ZackB's ridiculous statement that publicly funded hospitals have to treat you. There are a lot of uninsured people using the ER for their medical complaints because they can't afford a doctor's visit. And that ends up costing tax payers a lot more.
You are not very well informed, sweet cheeks.
Whatever, Zack. I'm sure you're vastly better informed than I am.
 
What Are Our "Rights"?

You hear an awful lot about our "rights" these days. And justly so-- our rights, in this country, are our most valuable possession, outside of life itself. And some people say that our basic rights, are even more important than life. When Patrick Henry defiantly told the British government during colonial times, "Give me liberty or give me death!", he was stating that he considered a life without liberty, to be worse than no life at all (death).

So, what are our rights?

The Declaration of Independence mentions a few, and implies that there are others. So does the Constitution-- in fact, it names many, and categorically states that those aren't the only rights people have.

The Declaration says that among our rights, are "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness". It also says that these were given to us "by [our] Creator". Take that as you will, depending on whatever religious outlook you hold. But one of the implications is that, wherever our rights came from, they were NOT granted us by government, or by our fellow men at all. We had them long before government existed. And these various government documents simply say that government cannot take them away or interfere with them.

Here we refer, of course, only to normal law-abiding citizens. The Constitution contains the phrase "except by due course of law" in many places. If you rob someone, assault him, destroy his property, murder him etc., then you can legitimately be deprived of liberty (you go to jail), property (you get fined), or even life in some extreme cases (Death Penalty). Outside of such lawbreaking, your rights are held inviolate.

But today, our "rights" seem to be multiplying without end. This is not necessarily bad-- as we said, rights are extremely valuable. But, are we getting ahead of ourselves, granting to ourselves so many things under the name of "rights"?

"Old Rights"

Some are pretty indisputable, such as the ones mentioned in the Declaration. The ones mentioned in the Constitution, especially in the first ten Amendments (which was even called the "Bill of Rights" by its authors), are similarly vital... though they seem to be undergoing a methodical erosion. Freedom of religion, right to peaceably assemble, freedom of speech and of the press, the right to keep and bear arms, etc. all are very basic, and it is scary to think of trying to exist in a country in which any of these do not exist.

New "rights"

But lately we have heard about other "rights", such as the right to work, the right to decent medical treatment, the right to a decent standard of living. These all sound salutary-- what kind of society would we have, if working for a living were forbidden, decent health care were forbidden, etc.?

But there is a big gap between "forbidden" and "compulsory". The rights found in the country's founding documents, are compulsory, to the extent that we all have them whether we want them or not (who wouldn't want them?), and no one can take them away.

What about, say, the right to decent medical treatment? Those who favor this "right", point out that they don't necessarily mean the rare, exotic, super-expensive treatments; nor "elective" procedures such as cosmetic liposuction or a luxury suite in the hospital. They usually mean that, if you get sick or injured, you have the "right" to have a doctor look at you, make sure the problem isn't unusually dangerous, and administer the routine treatments needed to help you on the way back to good health. An absence of such routine treatment, could occasionally put your life in peril, obviously-- a simple broken bone could lead to infection if untreated, and possibly far more. But there are differences between the "Old Rights", as we've called the ones in the founding documents, and these "New 'Rights'".

Your "right to life" protects something that no man gave you-- you simply had it, from the day you were born. Nobody had to go to extraordinary effort to create it for you, outside of natural processes that move forward on their own without deliberate effort or guidance by humans, government, etc.

Same with the "right to liberty". You were your own man, as it were, the day you were born. Nobody had to go to special effort to create that status for you. In fact, they would have had to go to considerable effort to take those things away, by deliberately coming to you and killing you; or by building a jail and imprisoning you etc. If they leave you alone, you have life and liberty, and can pursue happiness. They have to work at it to deprive you of those things.

The Difference in the "New 'Rights'"

But this isn't the case with what we've called "New 'Rights'". In order for you to get the kind of routine medical treatment its advocates describe, somebody has to stop what he is doing and perform work for you-- the doctor who examines you, the clerk who sets up your appointment, the people who built the office or hospital where you get treatment.

If this routine medical treatment is to be called a "right" on par with our "Old Rights", doesn't that mean that you must be given it when needed? And doesn't it follow, then, that others must be compelled to do the normal things needed to treat you?

Uh-oh.

How does this compulsion upon those others (doctors, clerks etc.) fit in with THEIR rights? They "have" to treat you? What if their schedules are full-- do they have to bump another patient to make room for you? What if they were spending precious quality time with their families-- do they have to abandon their own kids, to fulfill your "right" to treatment that only they can give? Doesn't this fit the description of "involuntary servitude"?

This is an important difference between the rights envisioned by the country's founders, and the new "rights" advocated by more modern pundits. In order to secure your "old rights", people merely had to leave you alone... do nothing to bother you. in fact, they were required to. But these new so-called "rights", required that people go out of their way to actively contribute to you.

And that "requirement", in fact violates THEIR rights-- specifically, their right to liberty. They must be left free to live their lives as THEY chose-- free from compulsion to come and help you out. If they want to help you, that's fine-- often it's the decent and moral thing to do. But they cannot be forced to help you, no matter how much you need the help.

These new "rights", are in fact not rights at all. They are obligations upon others, imposed on them without their agreement or consent.

Beware of announcements that you have the "right" to this or that. Ask yourself if this "right", forces someone else to do something for you, that he didn't previously agree to. If it does, it's not a "right" possessed by you. It's an attempt by the announcer, to force others into servitude... an attempt, in fact, to violate the others' rights.

Where does the Constitution say you have a right to polio vaccine? Oh, right; it doesn't.
 
Even prior to the ACA nobody was denied access to healthcare. If you walked into a publicly funded hospital with a stab wound or drug overdose they were required to take care of you.
An E.R. charges a thousand dollars for a visit, where people with pneumonia, gastroenteritis, panic attacks, etc. go when a doctor's visit would be vastly less expensive, if they had the insurance coverage. Who's really paying?
I am paying for it, as are other taxpayers. Nonetheless, I have no interest in paying for your "preventative care", rubbers, or cock enhancement surgery. However, since I have no desire to move elsewhere to live with Muslims and other trash I am stuck having to pay for YOUR healthcare, aren't I?
And I pay for yours. Where's the unfairness in that?
I have a grandfathered individual policy, the premiums on which have more than doubled since the enactment of the ACA. I suspect that I am footing more of my medical bills than you are of mine, honey.
 
jmo but I think its a valid political discussion about whether Bernie is correctly saying there's some "right," and their ain't.
That's true. Healthcare is not a right under our Constitution. When the Declaration of Independence was written, going to a doctor didn't get you very far, anyway. He might bleed you or give you a concoction that would kill you or at best do nothing to harm you but not help you, either. Now, in 2016, there are medicines and diagostic tests and amazing surgery that save and improve lives. But they are astronomically expensive, and we can no longer pay the doctor with a chicken or a dozen eggs or a face cord of firewood, like people did in the good old days. No, it is not a right, but it is a moral imperative, imo, to give everyone--rich or poor--access to the medical care which now does save lives and frequently gift us with an improved quality of life, as well. ACA isn't working because it is a chopped up, watered down mess thanks to the Republican fight against universal health care.
Those people who have no compassion for their fellow man can go live in the third world shit hole of their choice and keep their grubby money. Good riddance.

What about the compassion of selfish fucks who do nothing with their lives and demand that we take care of them? Doesn't sound very compassionate to me now does it? Isn't the compassionate thing to do to be self-reliant?
Selfish fucks shouldn't throw stones, NOLA.

I'm selfish? I take care of me and my own.... that is what responsible adults do.. how am I selfish?
 
Even prior to the ACA nobody was denied access to healthcare. If you walked into a publicly funded hospital with a stab wound or drug overdose they were required to take care of you.
An E.R. charges a thousand dollars for a visit, where people with pneumonia, gastroenteritis, panic attacks, etc. go when a doctor's visit would be vastly less expensive, if they had the insurance coverage. Who's really paying?

Since more people have insurance now, those costs are dropping. Again, plenty of information about that in the ObamaCare forum (see Greenbeard's posts/threads in particular).

As for why people go to the ER for those things, they very often become critical after the doctor's gone home for the day; the ER is open 24/7. If you're struggling to breathe on a Friday evening because of pneumonia or asthma, it's a little inconvenient to wait until Monday morning.

There are walk-in clinics in some places, but they too keep "business hours." When the walk-in clinic and your doctor's office are closed, who ya gonna call?
I agree. I was replying to ZackB's ridiculous statement that publicly funded hospitals have to treat you. There are a lot of uninsured people using the ER for their medical complaints because they can't afford a doctor's visit. And that ends up costing tax payers a lot more.
You are not very well informed, sweet cheeks.

I wonder if she understand the taxpayers are now supporting the exchanges or that most of the people doing this, aren't buying health insurance.
 
No One Has a Right to Health Care
by Jacob G. Hornberger February 3, 2016

Democratic Presidential candidate Bernie Sanders says that everyone has a right to health care. Unfortunately, none of his presidential opponents, Democrat or Republican, is going to challenge him on the point. They’re too scared that they’d lose votes by challenging a standard socialist shibboleth in America.

Sanders’ assertion only goes to show how American socialists (i.e., progressives) have warped and perverted the concept of rights within the minds of the American people. The fact is that no one has a right to health care any more than he has a right to a home, a car, food, spouse, or anything else.

The correct concept of rights was enunciated by Thomas Jefferson in the Declaration of Independence, the document that Americans ironically celebrate every Fourth of July. Jefferson observed that people have been endowed with certain unalienable rights, among which are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
Where does the right to life fit in with healthcare
 
jmo but I think its a valid political discussion about whether Bernie is correctly saying there's some "right," and their ain't.
That's true. Healthcare is not a right under our Constitution. When the Declaration of Independence was written, going to a doctor didn't get you very far, anyway. He might bleed you or give you a concoction that would kill you or at best do nothing to harm you but not help you, either. Now, in 2016, there are medicines and diagostic tests and amazing surgery that save and improve lives. But they are astronomically expensive, and we can no longer pay the doctor with a chicken or a dozen eggs or a face cord of firewood, like people did in the good old days. No, it is not a right, but it is a moral imperative, imo, to give everyone--rich or poor--access to the medical care which now does save lives and frequently gift us with an improved quality of life, as well. ACA isn't working because it is a chopped up, watered down mess thanks to the Republican fight against universal health care.
Those people who have no compassion for their fellow man can go live in the third world shit hole of their choice and keep their grubby money. Good riddance.

What about the compassion of selfish fucks who do nothing with their lives and demand that we take care of them? Doesn't sound very compassionate to me now does it? Isn't the compassionate thing to do to be self-reliant?
Selfish fucks shouldn't throw stones, NOLA.

I'm selfish? I take care of me and my own.... that is what responsible adults do.. how am I selfish?

Responsible adults also do what they can to ensure that their families have access to health care, including immunizations, regular checkups, and urgent care when needed. It's interesting that the majority of anti-vaxxers are upper middle-class. Just a sidebar, but an intriguing one.
 
No One Has a Right to Health Care
by Jacob G. Hornberger February 3, 2016

Democratic Presidential candidate Bernie Sanders says that everyone has a right to health care. Unfortunately, none of his presidential opponents, Democrat or Republican, is going to challenge him on the point. They’re too scared that they’d lose votes by challenging a standard socialist shibboleth in America.

Sanders’ assertion only goes to show how American socialists (i.e., progressives) have warped and perverted the concept of rights within the minds of the American people. The fact is that no one has a right to health care any more than he has a right to a home, a car, food, spouse, or anything else.

The correct concept of rights was enunciated by Thomas Jefferson in the Declaration of Independence, the document that Americans ironically celebrate every Fourth of July. Jefferson observed that people have been endowed with certain unalienable rights, among which are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
Where does the right to life fit in with healthcare


YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO THE HEALTHCARE YOU CAN AFFORD.

YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO PURSUE LIFE , LIBERTY AND PURSUE HAPPINESS AND HOPEFULLY THAT INCLUDES BUYING A HEALTH INSURANCE POLICY.


THAT DOES NOT MEAN YOUR TAXPAYING NEIGHBOR IS REQUIRED TO BUY ONE FOR YOU.

IF AFFORDABLE HEALTHCARE INSURANCE IS IMPORTANT TO YOU BECOME GAINFULLY EMPLOYED AND TELL THE BUREAUCRATS TO KEEP THEIR HANDS OFF..


.
 
I wonder if she understand the taxpayers are now supporting the exchanges or that most of the people doing this, aren't buying health insurance.

The second part of your sentence contradicts the first. Can you clarify?

Taxpayers will continue to support these folks... more to the point, people clogging up the ER's or on Medicaid aren't going to miraculously start filing tax returns and reporting that they are uninsured. They will continue to fly under the radar and do t he Medicaid thingy or go to the ER.
 
I wonder if she understand the taxpayers are now supporting the exchanges or that most of the people doing this, aren't buying health insurance.

The second part of your sentence contradicts the first. Can you clarify?

Taxpayers will continue to support these folks... more to the point, people clogging up the ER's or on Medicaid aren't going to miraculously start filing tax returns and reporting that they are uninsured. They will continue to fly under the radar and do t he Medicaid thingy or go to the ER.

Huh? So taxpayers are paying the subsidies of people who don't have insurance? People on Medicaid are uninsured (Hint: Medicaid is coverage for health-related issues, i.e., insurance)? I asked you to clarify, not obfuscate.
 
Even prior to the ACA nobody was denied access to healthcare. If you walked into a publicly funded hospital with a stab wound or drug overdose they were required to take care of you.
An E.R. charges a thousand dollars for a visit, where people with pneumonia, gastroenteritis, panic attacks, etc. go when a doctor's visit would be vastly less expensive, if they had the insurance coverage. Who's really paying?
I am paying for it, as are other taxpayers. Nonetheless, I have no interest in paying for your "preventative care", rubbers, or cock enhancement surgery. However, since I have no desire to move elsewhere to live with Muslims and other trash I am stuck having to pay for YOUR healthcare, aren't I?

I have no interest in paying for YOUR wars or corporate bailouts.
 
OP is young and naive and listens to too much talk radio.

First. I agree. Nobody has a right to anything, save that which is conferred by law.

Exxon - a huge financier for the right - doesn't have a right to have their Iraqi oil fields protected by the Pentagon on the public's dime. In 2008, private corporations didn't have a right to the Bush/Paulson TARP, which bailed them out for their corruption. Private corporations like Boeing don't have the right to have over 50% of their costs subsidized by the government. The Private Sector doesn't have a right to have their global trade routes and access to resources stabilized by the US Military.

Indeed, corporations don't have a right to welfare anymore than citizens do, but here is what the OP consistently misses: nations decide to allocate resources across the economic spectrum. This is why government has delivered an advanced satellite system to profit makers. [Yup, I'm actually trying to educate a Republican on the advanced industrial infrastructure that came out of the Cold War/NASA budget - seeded to our corporations who happily and quietly deferred the cost to the public].

When a government provides vital infrastructure to profit makers, society wins. When government ensures that consumers aren't bankrupted by health care, the result is that Main Street wins (because people have more dollars to spend).

We tried "free market" health care starting with Reagan, after which the industry transformed itself into a lobbying nightmare of government protected monopolies which divided the country into fixed no-compete zones, so that Blue Cross could raise premiums & decrease services without losing customers to Cigna. We watched as premiums were raised at 5x inflation. We watched our citizens pay into the world's most expensive health care system, a dysfunctional monopoly that protected Republican-friendly Pharma Cartels. [Do you think the OP knows how lobbying works, and how much the supposed private sector gets from Uncle Sucker?]

Regardless, nations allocate resources to the supply and demand side of the economy. This has nothing to do with rights. Bernie's language is as frustratingly ideological as Cruz's. Some day the Republican Party will shut down talk radio and tell its low information hordes to go to a library.
 
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I don't give a crap whether it is a "right". I don't care if some people think it is "moral".

Providing at least preventive, diagnostic and basic health care services identifies problems early and saves money in the long run. It's good economics.

Expand the current, already-working personal Medicare/Medicare Supplement/Medicare Advantage program to all.

Take a massive cost/administration monkey off the backs of American business. Take a massive cost/administration monkey off the backs of insurers by relieving them of paying for the lower-end services. Rid us of the SEVEN (7) different delivery/payment systems we have right now, none of which coordinate directly with the other. Maintain a robust, dynamic, competitive insurance environment.

Both parties have completely failed us on this.
.

Providing at least preventive, diagnostic and basic health care services identifies problems early and saves money in the long run, it's not good economics if taxpayers and producers are required to pay for them under penalty of law.

Hopefully , you will agree that when those taxpayers and producers violently oppose your scheme that you will agree that its a good defensive mechanism


.
I just want what's best for the country. Both in terms of its people and its economy. What's good for the country is good for me.

If some people want to be angered because the fact they may be paying a bit for a healthier populace is somehow ruining their "freedom" and "liberty" -- which seems a bit selfish -- there's not much I can do about it.
.
 
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