No Evidence

[CrusaderFrank]

1. There is not a single piece of observed, measured evidence which supports the AGW hypothesis over natural variability.

2. There is not a single piece of observed, measured evidence which establishes a coherent link between the absorption of infrared radiation by a gas and warming in the atmosphere.

3. The hypothesized warming due to mankind's burins of hydrocarbon fuels, which is the foundation of the anthropogenic global warming hypothesis has never been empirically measured, quantified, and then attributed to so called green house gasses.


I have been asking for just a single piece of observed, measured evidence which supports the claims of climate alarmists for decades now and have never received the first piece.

I see alarmists claiming that such evidence exists all the time...sometimes they even post what passes for evidence in their minds like THIS. There is certainly observed, and measured data there, but none of it supports the AGW hypothesis over natural variability, and none of it even begins to establish a coherent relationship between the absorption of infrared radiation by a gas and warming in the atmosphere...those things are certainly assumed in the example linked to, but there certainly is no evidence to support the assumption. And there is no paper there in which the hypothesized warming due to our production of CO2 has been empirically measured, quantified, and then attributed to so called greenhouse gasses. Again, it is assumed, but assumptions based on lose correlation over a very short period of geological time are less than worthless in any scientific examination of an entity as large, variable, and chaotic as the global climate.

So there you go...I have stuck my chin out...I have made 3 very deliberate, and concise statements regarding the state of climate science and the evidence that mankind is having an effect on the global climate.

It is the complete absence of evidence challenging the 3 statements above that explain why I am a skeptic.

Prove me wrong. Don't tell me about the evidence that exists......don't tell me about the evidence you might believe you have produced...Step up to the plate and produce the evidence that I have quite clearly declared does not exist...

And when you can't, ask yourself why it is that you believe what you do regarding man made climate change.

This OP demonstrates the willful ignorance that cannot possibly be overcome to offset the acceleration of climate change. Somebody will have to come up with an idea or new technology to address the climate if it becomes necessary.

Um how come you didn't post any evidence?

 

[SSDD]

I haven’t researched the subject in depth sonim asking you. Have you looked into where exactly the trillion dollars have gone? Specifically. If you are going to call it a waste then shouldn’t you know what it was getting wasted on?

I thought I made that clear...I don't know where the money is going...paper after paper based on the same old set of models are published...people are traveling about attending conferences...billions are being spent upon creating a sense of anxiety and fear. Millions more are being spent bringing this non existing problem into schools to create fear among the young so as to keep up a steady stream of adults who fear man made climate change. None of those things can rightly be called science..they seen to be more closely related to political activism.

What isn't being done is actual research into how our climate works, the factors that bring on changes in the climate and how much those individual factors effect the climate and how much they may interact with each other and how those interactions may alter the client...

What isn't being done is a systematic approach towards gathering observed, measured evidence regarding an observable, measurable entity to further understand how it works and what does and does not have an effect on it.

And isn't the very nature of waste within large organizations, by definition, money going down a hole with no appreciable results in return? Where does the massive amount of money wasted in other government enterprises go? For the most part, we don't know...it is gone....someone spent it...we didn't see any real return for the money...ergo, it was wasted. Every once in a while, some special report, or investigation will enlighten us on some small aspect of the staggering amount of money wasted by government and other large organizations, but for the most part...the money is just gone.

If it is being spent in actual scientific endeavor, should not the return be self evident? Shouldn't I be able to ask for a single piece of observed, measured evidence and the be deluged from every direction with such evidence? Shouldn't we see some benefit to humanity...at least something that most of us should be able to name that has been a benefit. I mean, if you look at past government funded scientific endeavors, like say, the space program, you can't swing a dead cat without hitting something in your life that is either a direct spin off from the program, or very closely related to it.

The fact that neither you, nor I nor anyone else can point to any actual observed, measured evidence, real knowledge, or benefit to humanity from the incredible amount of money that has been spent should make waste self evident.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Are you not able to grasp what spontaneous means?

You're the one who said when matter absorbs outside energy, it doesn't emit spontaneously.
So explain how it emits.

I can see that you have lost what tenuous grasp you had on the thread of this conversation....Were we not talking about energy moving from the surface of the sun to the corona? What energy are you claiming that the sun is absorbing than emitting?

What work is done on the Sun's surface to allow it to emit toward the hotter corona?

As I have said...alven waves are the latest hypothesis.. sorry you are having such a hard time reading.

What work is done on the Earth's surface to allow it to emit toward the hotter thermosphere?

The thermosphere is mostly empty....as I said...it is like spraying water through a chicken wire fence...what is there in the thermosphere that you think would block off all radiation, or even a significant portion of radiation from a cooler object? Radiation moves through empty space just fine...and the thermosphere is almost entirely empty space.

Alfven waves aren't the Sun's surface emitting.

But they are thought to be the work that moves the energy from the surface to the corona...you seem to be the only one who thinks that the sun is just spontaneously emitting energy from its cooler surface to the warmer corona...or the only one who can't grasp the concept of work moving energy from the cooler surface to the warmer corona. In either case, you apparently don't have a clue.

And now we're back to smart photons, picking their way through hotter matter.

"Picking" their way? Really? Exactly what sort of picking is required to move through a space that is mostly empty vacuum...again...you don't seem to have a clue.

Is the Earth's entire atmosphere a hard vacuum?

Were you not talking about the thermosphere? Now that that notion has lost, you want to try something else? Typical.

Is that why CMB can reach the Earth's surface?

CMB didn't reach the earth's surface....a resonant radio frequency did..they measured it with a radio telescope remember...not a microwave dish, or an infrared telescope...but that topic is so far over your head that you have already made it perfectly clear that you never will get it.

Only those photons that can avoid every atom and molecule in the atmosphere,

Don't have any idea what you are bleating about.,

were emitted billions of years ago, destined to only hit a cooled receiver?

I didn't make up the notion of photons....or the rules by which they theoretically exist...but I gave an accurate description of what they do within the rules that theoretical science made up...don't like them...talk to theoretical science...they are the ones who said that time is a meaningless concept to photons..and that distance is a meaningless concept to photons, and that photons exist everywhere along their path simultaneously....don't like the ramifications? Sorry....not my fault...if you are going to accept photons as real, then you are obliged to accept the properties those who made them up say they have.

Were we not talking about energy moving from the surface of the sun to the corona?

We are talking about energy moving from the cooler surface through the hotter corona.
No one gives a shit WHY the corona is hotter only THAT the corona is hotter.
According to your unique misinterpretation of the 2nd Law, cooler matter is never allowed to emit toward hotter matter. Despite the violations of causality and entropy that would entail.

What work is done on the Sun's surface to allow it to emit toward the hotter corona?

As I have said...alven waves are the latest hypothesis.. sorry you are having such a hard time reading.​

Alfven waves are not the hypothesis for the surface emitting toward the hotter corona. Sorry you have such a hard time comprehending.​

​

But they are thought to be the work that moves the energy from the surface to the corona.​

The Sun's magnetic field is thought to be heating the corona, and that's significantly different than photons from the cooler surface heating the much hotter corona. What an embarrassing slip on your part.​

​

"Picking" their way? Really? ​

Yes, that's what smart photons have to do to avoid hotter matter. Right?

Is the Earth's entire atmosphere a hard vacuum?
​

Were you not talking about the thermosphere? ​

We're talking about your claim that "cooler photons" can't hit warmer matter.
CMB "picking it's way down though the atmosphere only during those brief times when something
on Earth is cooled enough?​

​

CMB didn't reach the earth's surface....a resonant radio frequency did..​

CMB hits the Earth non-stop. Since the planet was formed.​

​

they measured it with a radio telescope remember...not a microwave dish, or an infrared telescope...​

Different telescopes capture different waves. They all operate in the same manner.
They all detect photons that hit the receiver.
They don't detect photons that skip past the planet.​

​

Don't have any idea what you are bleating about.,​

About your claim that photons know they aren't allowed to hit the Earth, because it's too warm.

Now, back to the question you keep running away from.

You said when matter absorbs outside energy, it doesn't emit spontaneously.
So explain how it emits.





​

 

[SSDD]

Were we not talking about energy moving from the surface of the sun to the corona?

We are talking about energy moving from the cooler surface through the hotter corona.
No one gives a shit WHY the corona is hotter only THAT the corona is hotter.
According to your unique misinterpretation of the 2nd Law, cooler matter is never allowed to emit toward hotter matter. Despite the violations of causality and entropy that would entail.

I will post this one more time...and if you can't understand it I am finished talking to you. This isn't that difficult and if you aren't bright enough to grasp the concept, then you really aren''t worth talking to. I will bold the pertinent phrase to try and help you grasp this...and will bookmark this post so if you ever make the claim again, I can easily point out your abject dishonesty.

Second law of thermodynamics. It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow. Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object.

Even the simplest of idiots should be able to grasp that the second law is saying that energy can be made to move from cool to warm, if work is being done to make it happen....I have pointed that out over and over to you but you don't seem bright enough to grasp what is being said. That being the case, what credibility do you think you have when talking on scientific topics? This is very basic stuff.

What work is done on the Sun's surface to allow it to emit toward the hotter corona?

Again, read up on alfven waves and the other hypotheses out there seeking to determine what form the work is taking that moves the energy to the hotter corona...No one is saying that it gets there spontaneously...

Alfven waves are not the hypothesis for the surface emitting toward the hotter corona. Sorry you have such a hard time comprehending.

​

Alfvén Waves in the Solar Corona

clip: Alfvén waves, transverse incompressible magnetic oscillations, have been proposed as a possible mechanism to heat the Sun's corona to millions of degrees by transporting convective energy from the photosphere into the diffuse corona.

You really don't have a clue do you?

Alfvén waves, transverse incompressible magnetic oscillations, have been proposed as a possible mechanism to heat the Sun's corona to millions of degrees by transporting convective energy from the photosphere into the diffuse coronaThe Sun's magnetic field is thought to be heating the corona, and that's significantly different than photons from the cooler surface heating the much hotter corona. What an embarrassing slip on your part.[/quote]

The key word there, you buffoon, is "thought" as I have pointed out, there are lots of hypotheses out there for what sort of work is being done to make the corona so much hotter than the surface...no one is suggesting spontaneous movement of energy from the surface to the corona.

Yes, that's what smart photons have to do to avoid hotter matter. Right?

Who, besides you ever said "avoid"? I certainly didn't but since you are such a liar I am not surprised that you would suggest that I did...I said that they don't even emit towards warmer objects.

The rest of your post, is just more stuff that you have already been schooled on at other threads...just rehash of arguments you have already lost...not interested in going over it with you again....if you get some thrill out of it, go re read the stuff that is already there...my argument isn't going to change by going over it again.


​

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Were we not talking about energy moving from the surface of the sun to the corona?

We are talking about energy moving from the cooler surface through the hotter corona.
No one gives a shit WHY the corona is hotter only THAT the corona is hotter.
According to your unique misinterpretation of the 2nd Law, cooler matter is never allowed to emit toward hotter matter. Despite the violations of causality and entropy that would entail.

I will post this one more time...and if you can't understand it I am finished talking to you. This isn't that difficult and if you aren't bright enough to grasp the concept, then you really aren''t worth talking to. I will bold the pertinent phrase to try and help you grasp this...and will bookmark this post so if you ever make the claim again, I can easily point out your abject dishonesty.

Second law of thermodynamics. It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow. Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object.

Even the simplest of idiots should be able to grasp that the second law is saying that energy can be made to move from cool to warm, if work is being done to make it happen....I have pointed that out over and over to you but you don't seem bright enough to grasp what is being said. That being the case, what credibility do you think you have when talking on scientific topics? This is very basic stuff.

What work is done on the Sun's surface to allow it to emit toward the hotter corona?

Again, read up on alfven waves and the other hypotheses out there seeking to determine what form the work is taking that moves the energy to the hotter corona...No one is saying that it gets there spontaneously...

Alfven waves are not the hypothesis for the surface emitting toward the hotter corona. Sorry you have such a hard time comprehending.

​

Alfvén Waves in the Solar Corona

clip: Alfvén waves, transverse incompressible magnetic oscillations, have been proposed as a possible mechanism to heat the Sun's corona to millions of degrees by transporting convective energy from the photosphere into the diffuse corona.

You really don't have a clue do you?

Alfvén waves, transverse incompressible magnetic oscillations, have been proposed as a possible mechanism to heat the Sun's corona to millions of degrees by transporting convective energy from the photosphere into the diffuse coronaThe Sun's magnetic field is thought to be heating the corona, and that's significantly different than photons from the cooler surface heating the much hotter corona. What an embarrassing slip on your part.​

The key word there, you buffoon, is "thought" as I have pointed out, there are lots of hypotheses out there for what sort of work is being done to make the corona so much hotter than the surface...no one is suggesting spontaneous movement of energy from the surface to the corona.

Yes, that's what smart photons have to do to avoid hotter matter. Right?

Who, besides you ever said "avoid"? I certainly didn't but since you are such a liar I am not surprised that you would suggest that I did...I said that they don't even emit towards warmer objects.

The rest of your post, is just more stuff that you have already been schooled on at other threads...just rehash of arguments you have already lost...not interested in going over it with you again....if you get some thrill out of it, go re read the stuff that is already there...my argument isn't going to change by going over it again.


​

Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object.

Then what is allowing photons from the Sun's surface to move toward the hotter corona?

Tell me about the work done to allow this movement.


Who, besides you ever said "avoid"?

I don't think photons avoid warmer matter, must have been based on your claim.

I said that they don't even emit towards warmer objects.

Of course, smart emitters. DURR.

You said when matter absorbs outside energy, it doesn't emit spontaneously.
So explain how it emits.

 

[SSDD]

[

Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object.

Then what is allowing photons from the Sun's surface to move toward the hotter corona?

Tell me about the work done to allow this movement.

Already did...and suggested that you do some research into the multiple hypotheses regarding the work being done to transport that energy...you apparently aren't up to doing it and so will remain ignorant.

[I don't think photons avoid warmer matter, must have been based on your claim.

Nope...I never said anything like that...it is just one more example of you making up arguments to rail against...

If you don't have anything new...We are done. You are a waste of time.

 

[SSDD]

So show of hands...

It has been a couple of days...85 posts and pretty clear that my original claim holds and that there is no observed, measured evidence as stated in claims 1 and 2 and no peer reviewed published paper as stated in claim 3.

How many of you who believe in man made climate change are having second thoughts? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller? Bueller?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

[

Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object.

Then what is allowing photons from the Sun's surface to move toward the hotter corona?

Tell me about the work done to allow this movement.

Already did...and suggested that you do some research into the multiple hypotheses regarding the work being done to transport that energy...you apparently aren't up to doing it and so will remain ignorant.

[I don't think photons avoid warmer matter, must have been based on your claim.

Nope...I never said anything like that...it is just one more example of you making up arguments to rail against...

If you don't have anything new...We are done. You are a waste of time.

Already did.

Nope. You never did. Not even once. You said absorbing and emitting isn't work.
Since there is no fusion on the surface, you must have a secret, 3rd way.

Nope...I never said anything like that...

Right. You said photons won't be emitted if they would hitter warmer matter, billions of light years away, billions of years in the future. Like that's less ridiculous.

You also said that matter hit by outside energy can never emit spontaneously.

 

[skookerasbil]

Still no evidence s0ns!!

 

[SSDD]

Still no evidence s0ns!!

Never will be. What amazes me is that those who believe will continue to believe. It is perfectly clear evidence that their position is political and not science based.

 

[Wuwei]

I will post this one more time...and if you can't understand it I am finished talking to you. This isn't that difficult and if you aren't bright enough to grasp the concept, then you really aren''t worth talking to. I will bold the pertinent phrase to try and help you grasp this...and will bookmark this post so if you ever make the claim again, I can easily point out your abject dishonesty.

Second law of thermodynamics. It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow. Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object.

Every time you cite that definition you leave out a clarification that explains the law refers to net energy. This is at
Second Law of Thermodynamics

It is important to note that when it is stated that energy will not spontaneously flow from a cold object to a hot object, that statement is referring to net transfer of energy. Energy can transfer from the cold object to the hot object either by transfer of energetic particles or electromagnetic radiation, but the net transfer will be from the hot object to the cold object in any spontaneous process. Work is required to transfer net energy to the hot object.
​

So, Tod is right about the corona and you are are the one with abject dishonesty.

​

 

[SSDD]

I will post this one more time...and if you can't understand it I am finished talking to you. This isn't that difficult and if you aren't bright enough to grasp the concept, then you really aren''t worth talking to. I will bold the pertinent phrase to try and help you grasp this...and will bookmark this post so if you ever make the claim again, I can easily point out your abject dishonesty.

Second law of thermodynamics. It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow. Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object.

Every time you cite that definition you leave out a clarification that explains the law refers to net energy. This is at
Second Law of Thermodynamics

It is important to note that when it is stated that energy will not spontaneously flow from a cold object to a hot object, that statement is referring to net transfer of energy. Energy can transfer from the cold object to the hot object either by transfer of energetic particles or electromagnetic radiation, but the net transfer will be from the hot object to the cold object in any spontaneous process. Work is required to transfer net energy to the hot object.
​

So, Tod is right about the corona and you are are the one with abject dishonesty.

​

Don't you think that if net energy were actually observed and measured, that the law would say it? The law doesn't....some people add their opinion that it means net energy, some people refer to unobservable, unmeasurable untestable models and say that they indicate net energy...but the law itself still doesn't state anything whatsoever about net energy..the law still speaks in absolute terms...not possible...will not...those terms don't contain any wiggle room.

So we are back to the lack of any physical evidence and your insistence that I believe in your unobservable, unmeasurable, untestable models...Sorry, but I don't...it is the belief in models that has put post modern science in the position it finds itself...

 

[Wuwei]

I will post this one more time...and if you can't understand it I am finished talking to you. This isn't that difficult and if you aren't bright enough to grasp the concept, then you really aren''t worth talking to. I will bold the pertinent phrase to try and help you grasp this...and will bookmark this post so if you ever make the claim again, I can easily point out your abject dishonesty.

Second law of thermodynamics. It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow. Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object.

Every time you cite that definition you leave out a clarification that explains the law refers to net energy. This is at
Second Law of Thermodynamics

It is important to note that when it is stated that energy will not spontaneously flow from a cold object to a hot object, that statement is referring to net transfer of energy. Energy can transfer from the cold object to the hot object either by transfer of energetic particles or electromagnetic radiation, but the net transfer will be from the hot object to the cold object in any spontaneous process. Work is required to transfer net energy to the hot object.
​

So, Tod is right about the corona and you are are the one with abject dishonesty.

​

Don't you think that if net energy were actually observed and measured, that the law would say it? The law doesn't....some people add their opinion that it means net energy, some people refer to unobservable, unmeasurable untestable models and say that they indicate net energy...but the law itself still doesn't state anything whatsoever about net energy..the law still speaks in absolute terms...not possible...will not...those terms don't contain any wiggle room.

So we are back to the lack of any physical evidence and your insistence that I believe in your unobservable, unmeasurable, untestable models...Sorry, but I don't...it is the belief in models that has put post modern science in the position it finds itself...

You are lying as usual. The CMB, luminescence, radioactivity, the corona, etc. are all measured and observed. Not mathematical models. Those observations show you are wrong at your own game.

The popular website hyperphysics is now opinion? Well, it's just another lie on your part because you know the SLoT refers to net energy. Your attempt to reinvent physics is simply ignorant. Of course that is to be expected when you disparage observed and measured science as "fairy dust".

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

In any event, the cooler body does not warm the warmer one. SSDD's position is backed by empirical observation. I can do the math and see how the objects are affecting each other and their respective decay rates, but the physical process (exchange) has not been seen by empirical observation. We hypothesize and we reason that this is what is happening, but we do not know factually.

Most of the bickering is pointless on this. This is primarily semantics and circular BS...

Post modernism on the whole is an abject failure. ..go off half cocked believing in unobservable, unmeasurable, untestable models and you can find yourself so wrong that there really isn't a scale upon which to measure how far wrong you were.

Nature Is the Enemy of Man

This is how far wrong they are, and those opponents who refuse to realize this have been trapped by refusing to consider that even the basic original dogmas of the early Enviros are dead wrong. Over the decades since the bitter and vindictive lies of Silent Spring, whose author knew she was dying of incurable cancer, this revenge of the unfit has grown more and more powerful because no one has called them out on their attacks on pollution, which is antiseptic.

Natural "clean" air is toxic. It is full of deadly bacteria, viruses, and insects—All of Which Pollution Kills. If we ever went totally to alternate energy, expect holocausts from plague after plague after plague, which was the natural (pun intended) condition of mankind before industrialism created these beneficial byproducts. It is the difference between driving down a rocky "polluted" road and driving down one lined by natural-born killers throwing heavy jagged rocks at you.

 

[skookerasbil]

Still no evidence.....this is getting ghey. These people fold like a cheap wallet when pressed. The regulars in here always ignore the "show me the evidence" questions.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Still no evidence.....this is getting ghey. These people fold like a cheap wallet when pressed. The regulars in here always ignore the "show me the evidence" questions.

Still no evidence...

What type of evidence are you looking for?

 

[SSDD]

You are lying as usual. The CMB, luminescence, radioactivity, the corona, etc. are all measured and observed. Not mathematical models. Those observations show you are wrong at your own game.

Sorry guy.....none are examples of energy moving spontaneously from cool (low energy) objects to warm (higher energy) objects...

I know you wish you had some actual observed, measured evidence but all you seem to be able to provide is evidence that you are easily fooled.

 

[skookerasbil]

Still no evidence.....this is getting ghey. These people fold like a cheap wallet when pressed. The regulars in here always ignore the "show me the evidence" questions.

Still no evidence...

What type of evidence are you looking for?

Some that displays proof that CO2 is the only factor in a changing climate@

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Still no evidence.....this is getting ghey. These people fold like a cheap wallet when pressed. The regulars in here always ignore the "show me the evidence" questions.

Still no evidence...

What type of evidence are you looking for?

Some that displays proof that CO2 is the only factor in a changing climate@

Well, shit, that doesn't exist.

Are you satisfied with the evidence that back radiation exists?

 

[Wuwei]

You are lying as usual. The CMB, luminescence, radioactivity, the corona, etc. are all measured and observed. Not mathematical models. Those observations show you are wrong at your own game.

Sorry guy.....none are examples of energy moving spontaneously from cool (low energy) objects to warm (higher energy) objects...

I know you wish you had some actual observed, measured evidence but all you seem to be able to provide is evidence that you are easily fooled.

Nope, you are lying. The CMB, luminescence, radioactivity, the corona are measured observed evidence. You know that is accepted verified science and you are lying about it.

Sorry guy.....none are examples of energy moving spontaneously from cool (low energy) objects to warm (higher energy) objects...

I know you wish you had some actual observed, measured evidence but all you seem to be able to provide is evidence that you are easily fooled.

Easily fooled? You are essentially saying the entire body of science is easily fooled. Let's see some documented links that say that CMB, luminescence, radioactivity, the corona are not spontaneous emission. You don't have any links do you.