No 'Deals' With Israel, Unless We Get Everything We Want

[docmauser1]

And your point is what?

Arabs are losers, of course.

 

[Billo_Really]

Israel would not have been as large if not for the arabs attacking them.

Arabs would not have attacked if Zionists had respected the rights of indigenous arabs.

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Land acquisition is a real estate issue. Sovereignty is a matter of governmental institutions and political control.

Israel claims borders on land that it has never legally acquired.

(COMMENT)

What is "legally acquired?" Are you speaking of "sovereignty?" What is it that the contemporary Palestinian (a territorial name given by the Ottoman and passed on by the Allied Powers and the Mandatory for the indigenous population within an arbitrary boundary) acquired, or think they acquired?

Israel claims to get Palestinian borders by treaties with third parties.

(COMMENT)

Israel was established IAW the recommendation made by the UN. The attempt by the Arab Palestinian and Arab League to thwart the Partition Plan ended badly for the Arabs and resulted in the lost of territorial control.

The Palestinians did not have a "state" until 1988. Therefore, they are the third party and had no capacity to enter into a Treaty. After 1988, the Palestinian made no peace overtures as a principle party. The West Bank had been Occupied and then annexed by Jordan. Similarly, the Gaza Strip fell under the control of Egypt. By 1967, the principle parties to the conflict were Israel 'vs' Egypt and Jordan.

Oddly enough, under Arab League control, the Palestinians of the West Bank and Gaza Strip had no right to self-determination. They only acquire the right after the defeat of Egyptian and Jordanian forces by Israel.

Most Respectfully,
R

Horsefeathers!

1001 excuses why the Palestinians do not have the same rights as everyone else.

 

[Hollie]

By dawn of the 15th Israel was engaged with the Jordanian forces. 5am Tel Aviv was being bomb by air.

The declaration of independence made not claim of territorial limits, no stated boundaries, that came with the end of the war, they were simply ceasefire lines.

And your point is what?

Israel has no land or borders.

Indeed, the Arab crusaders have learned otherwise, repeatedly, since 1948.

Indeed.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

I don't believe I said that.

Horsefeathers!

1001 excuses why the Palestinians do not have the same rights as everyone else.

(COMMENT)

Palestinians have the exact same rights as everyone else. But they don't have more rights than anyone else.

Remember, it was the Palestinian that rejected the offer of sovereignty of an Arab State in GA/RES/181(II); and, it was then --- "Pursuant to the resolutions of the Arab Summit Conferences and on the basis of the international legitimacy embodied in the resolutions of the United Nations since 1947, and --- Through the exercise by the Palestinian Arab people of its right to self-determination, political independence and sovereignty over its territory: --- The Palestine National Council hereby declares, in the Name of God and on behalf of the Palestinian Arab people, the establishment of the State of Palestine in the land of Palestine with its capital at Jerusalem" --- 40 years later. (See: Palestinian Declaration of Independence A/43/827 S/20278 18 November 1988)

The Hostile Arab Palestinian opted for war and conflict for 40 years, declared independence, and then pursued a policy of war and conflict for another 25 years (until the present day).

They exercised their right of self-determination at a place and time of their own choosing. They declared independence at a place and time of their own choosing, and they pursue a policy Jihad and armed Fedayeen action in places and times of their own choosing.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

I don't believe I said that.

Horsefeathers!

1001 excuses why the Palestinians do not have the same rights as everyone else.

(COMMENT)

Palestinians have the exact same rights as everyone else. But they don't have more rights than anyone else.

Remember, it was the Palestinian that rejected the offer of sovereignty of an Arab State in GA/RES/181(II); and, it was then --- "Pursuant to the resolutions of the Arab Summit Conferences and on the basis of the international legitimacy embodied in the resolutions of the United Nations since 1947, and --- Through the exercise by the Palestinian Arab people of its right to self-determination, political independence and sovereignty over its territory: --- The Palestine National Council hereby declares, in the Name of God and on behalf of the Palestinian Arab people, the establishment of the State of Palestine in the land of Palestine with its capital at Jerusalem" --- 40 years later. (See: Palestinian Declaration of Independence A/43/827 S/20278 18 November 1988)

The Hostile Arab Palestinian opted for war and conflict for 40 years, declared independence, and then pursued a policy of war and conflict for another 25 years (until the present day).

They exercised their right of self-determination at a place and time of their own choosing. They declared independence at a place and time of their own choosing, and they pursue a policy Jihad and armed Fedayeen action in places and times of their own choosing.

Most Respectfully,
R

Palestinians have the exact same rights as everyone else. But they don't have more rights than anyone else.

Remember, it was the Palestinian that rejected the offer of sovereignty of an Arab State in GA/RES/181(II);

They did not reject an offer of sovereignty.

They rejected giving most of their country to foreigners.

Resolution 181 was a partition plan not a sovereignty plan.

 

[Hossfly]

P F Tinmore, et al,

I don't believe I said that.

Horsefeathers!

1001 excuses why the Palestinians do not have the same rights as everyone else.

(COMMENT)

Palestinians have the exact same rights as everyone else. But they don't have more rights than anyone else.

Remember, it was the Palestinian that rejected the offer of sovereignty of an Arab State in GA/RES/181(II); and, it was then --- "Pursuant to the resolutions of the Arab Summit Conferences and on the basis of the international legitimacy embodied in the resolutions of the United Nations since 1947, and --- Through the exercise by the Palestinian Arab people of its right to self-determination, political independence and sovereignty over its territory: --- The Palestine National Council hereby declares, in the Name of God and on behalf of the Palestinian Arab people, the establishment of the State of Palestine in the land of Palestine with its capital at Jerusalem" --- 40 years later. (See: Palestinian Declaration of Independence A/43/827 S/20278 18 November 1988)

The Hostile Arab Palestinian opted for war and conflict for 40 years, declared independence, and then pursued a policy of war and conflict for another 25 years (until the present day).

They exercised their right of self-determination at a place and time of their own choosing. They declared independence at a place and time of their own choosing, and they pursue a policy Jihad and armed Fedayeen action in places and times of their own choosing.

Most Respectfully,
R

Palestinians have the exact same rights as everyone else. But they don't have more rights than anyone else.

Remember, it was the Palestinian that rejected the offer of sovereignty of an Arab State in GA/RES/181(II);

They did not reject an offer of sovereignty.

They rejected giving most of their country to foreigners.

Resolution 181 was a partition plan not a sovereignty plan.

The Palestine Question was instrumental in giving the world a new word term in the '40s. SNAFU. At least that's what I heard.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

You are too close to the forest to see the trees.

They did not reject an offer of sovereignty.

(COMMENT)

Resolution 181(II) offered the Arab Palestinian the opportunity to establish an Arab State.

They rejected giving most of their country to foreigners.

(COMMENT)

The Israeli's were not foreigners. Calling the Israeli's foreigners is an example of the xenophobia

The right to self-determination was an integral element of basic human rights and fundamental freedoms, the Third Committee (Social, Humanitarian and Cultural) heard today as it concluded its general discussion on that subject, and on the elimination of racism, racial discrimination, xenophobia and related intolerance.

Unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers or of that which is foreign or strange.

SOURCE: GA/SHC/4085

Resolution 181 was a partition plan not a sovereignty plan.

(COMMENT)

Yes, it is a "Partition Plan, and much, much more:

3. Independent Arab and Jewish States and the Special International Regime for the City of Jerusalem, set forth in part III of this plan, shall come into existence in Palestine two months after the evacuation of the armed forces of the mandatory Power has been completed but in any case not later than 1 October 1948. The boundaries of the Arab State, the Jewish State, and the City of Jerusalem shall be as described in parts II and III below.

4. The period between the adoption by the General Assembly of its recommendation on the question of Palestine and the establishment of the independence of the Arab and Jewish States shall be a transitional period.​

SOURCE: A/RES/181(II) 29 November 1947

The fact is that the Hostile Arab Palestinians, did not get the entire remainder of the territory, so they tried to take it by force. Failing that, they will make any complaint, alter any history, perform any act of terrorism, and play the part of the perpetual victim.

The Plan was, in addition to the TERMINATION OF MANDATE, PARTITION AND INDEPENDENCE of the two proposed states, was ALSO and kick start for an economic union.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

You are too close to the forest to see the trees.

They did not reject an offer of sovereignty.

(COMMENT)

Resolution 181(II) offered the Arab Palestinian the opportunity to establish an Arab State.

They rejected giving most of their country to foreigners.

(COMMENT)

The Israeli's were not foreigners. Calling the Israeli's foreigners is an example of the xenophobia

​

Resolution 181 was a partition plan not a sovereignty plan.

(COMMENT)

Yes, it is a "Partition Plan, and much, much more:

3. Independent Arab and Jewish States and the Special International Regime for the City of Jerusalem, set forth in part III of this plan, shall come into existence in Palestine two months after the evacuation of the armed forces of the mandatory Power has been completed but in any case not later than 1 October 1948. The boundaries of the Arab State, the Jewish State, and the City of Jerusalem shall be as described in parts II and III below.

4. The period between the adoption by the General Assembly of its recommendation on the question of Palestine and the establishment of the independence of the Arab and Jewish States shall be a transitional period.​

SOURCE: A/RES/181(II) 29 November 1947

The fact is that the Hostile Arab Palestinians, did not get the entire remainder of the territory, so they tried to take it by force. Failing that, they will make any complaint, alter any history, perform any act of terrorism, and play the part of the perpetual victim.

The Plan was, in addition to the TERMINATION OF MANDATE, PARTITION AND INDEPENDENCE of the two proposed states, was ALSO and kick start for an economic union.

Most Respectfully,
R

Unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers or of that which is foreign or strange.

Not unreasonable at all. Those criminals went to Palestine to take over the country.

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

You are too close to the forest to see the trees.

They did not reject an offer of sovereignty.

(COMMENT)

Resolution 181(II) offered the Arab Palestinian the opportunity to establish an Arab State.

They rejected giving most of their country to foreigners.

(COMMENT)

The Israeli's were not foreigners. Calling the Israeli's foreigners is an example of the xenophobia

​

Resolution 181 was a partition plan not a sovereignty plan.

(COMMENT)

Yes, it is a "Partition Plan, and much, much more:

3. Independent Arab and Jewish States and the Special International Regime for the City of Jerusalem, set forth in part III of this plan, shall come into existence in Palestine two months after the evacuation of the armed forces of the mandatory Power has been completed but in any case not later than 1 October 1948. The boundaries of the Arab State, the Jewish State, and the City of Jerusalem shall be as described in parts II and III below.

4. The period between the adoption by the General Assembly of its recommendation on the question of Palestine and the establishment of the independence of the Arab and Jewish States shall be a transitional period.​

SOURCE: A/RES/181(II) 29 November 1947

The fact is that the Hostile Arab Palestinians, did not get the entire remainder of the territory, so they tried to take it by force. Failing that, they will make any complaint, alter any history, perform any act of terrorism, and play the part of the perpetual victim.

The Plan was, in addition to the TERMINATION OF MANDATE, PARTITION AND INDEPENDENCE of the two proposed states, was ALSO and kick start for an economic union.

Most Respectfully,
R

The mandate was going to leave Palestine anyway. Their stupid plan was blowing up in their face.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Well, this is a subjective call on a hypothetical.

The mandate was going to leave Palestine anyway. Their stupid plan was blowing up in their face.

(COMMENT)

Your statement implies that there were no provisions made for the withdrawal of the Mandatory. While it is true that the UK, as the Mandatory, was leaving, there was a follow-on administration. First, the General Assembly pre-designated (1947) the UNPC to follow-on after the termination of the UK Mandate, and second the UK announced the hand-off to the successor government.

2. The administration of Palestine shall, as the mandatory Power withdraws its armed forces, be progressively turned over to the Commission; which shall act in conformity with the recommendations of the General Assembly, under the guidance of the Security Council. The mandatory Power shall to the fullest possible extent co-ordinate its plans for withdrawal with the plans of the Commission to take over and administer areas which have been evacuated.

The Government of the United Kingdom, in a memorandum on the "Legal Meaning of the Termination of the Mandate", has advised the United Nations Palestine Commission that so fas the Mandatory Power is concerned the United Nations Commission will be the Government of Palestine after 15 May 1948.

... ... ... ... ...

"After the 15th May, 1948, Palestine will continue to be a legal entity but it will still not be a sovereign state because it will not be immediately self-governing. The authority responsible for its administration will, however, have changed.

SOURCE: PAL/138 27 February 1948

SOURCE: A/RES/181(II) 29 November 1947

Difficulty arose when the Arab League, began the infiltration effort in April and March, with Jordan prepositioning forces as the external interference to the implementation process. See Post #270 (No Deal, Unless We Get What We Want) with document links.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[aris2chat]

Within a few hour of the mandate ending Tel Aviv was being bombed by Jordanian planes.
Arab forces and Israelis engaged since dawn.
Most of Israel's planes were being held together with chewing gum wrappers, paperclips and duct tape (I seen quite a few makeshift temp repair of aircraft that miraculously worked) basically. Planes were borrowing part just to get in the air.
All of the last 65+ years did not have to happen.

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Well, this is a subjective call on a hypothetical.

The mandate was going to leave Palestine anyway. Their stupid plan was blowing up in their face.

(COMMENT)

Your statement implies that there were no provisions made for the withdrawal of the Mandatory. While it is true that the UK, as the Mandatory, was leaving, there was a follow-on administration. First, the General Assembly pre-designated (1947) the UNPC to follow-on after the termination of the UK Mandate, and second the UK announced the hand-off to the successor government.

2. The administration of Palestine shall, as the mandatory Power withdraws its armed forces, be progressively turned over to the Commission; which shall act in conformity with the recommendations of the General Assembly, under the guidance of the Security Council. The mandatory Power shall to the fullest possible extent co-ordinate its plans for withdrawal with the plans of the Commission to take over and administer areas which have been evacuated.

The Government of the United Kingdom, in a memorandum on the "Legal Meaning of the Termination of the Mandate", has advised the United Nations Palestine Commission that so fas the Mandatory Power is concerned the United Nations Commission will be the Government of Palestine after 15 May 1948.

... ... ... ... ...

"After the 15th May, 1948, Palestine will continue to be a legal entity but it will still not be a sovereign state because it will not be immediately self-governing. The authority responsible for its administration will, however, have changed.

SOURCE: PAL/138 27 February 1948

SOURCE: A/RES/181(II) 29 November 1947

Most Respectfully,
R

Are you saying that Israel stole Palestine from the UN.

BTW, all that verbosity did not address my post.

After the 15th May, 1948, Palestine will continue to be a legal entity...

What does "legal entity" mean?

 

[docmauser1]

P F Tinmore, et al,

I don't believe I said that.

Horsefeathers!

1001 excuses why the Palestinians do not have the same rights as everyone else.

(COMMENT)

Palestinians have the exact same rights as everyone else. But they don't have more rights than anyone else.

Remember, it was the Palestinian that rejected the offer of sovereignty of an Arab State in GA/RES/181(II); and, it was then --- "Pursuant to the resolutions of the Arab Summit Conferences and on the basis of the international legitimacy embodied in the resolutions of the United Nations since 1947, and --- Through the exercise by the Palestinian Arab people of its right to self-determination, political independence and sovereignty over its territory: --- The Palestine National Council hereby declares, in the Name of God and on behalf of the Palestinian Arab people, the establishment of the State of Palestine in the land of Palestine with its capital at Jerusalem" --- 40 years later. (See: Palestinian Declaration of Independence A/43/827 S/20278 18 November 1988)

The Hostile Arab Palestinian opted for war and conflict for 40 years, declared independence, and then pursued a policy of war and conflict for another 25 years (until the present day).

They exercised their right of self-determination at a place and time of their own choosing. They declared independence at a place and time of their own choosing, and they pursue a policy Jihad and armed Fedayeen action in places and times of their own choosing.

Most Respectfully,
R

Palestinians have the exact same rights as everyone else. But they don't have more rights than anyone else.

Remember, it was the Palestinian that rejected the offer of sovereignty of an Arab State in GA/RES/181(II);

They did not reject an offer of sovereignty.

Indeed, they rejected the sovereignty of others.

They rejected giving most of their country to foreigners.

The country, arabs didn't have in the first place, of course.

 

[docmauser1]

What does "legal entity" mean?

It means "all claims about "state of palestine" and international borders thereof are illegal", of course.