No Court Martial for Lt. Col. West

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by DKSuddeth
I don't believe I've ever done that.

"what really pisses me off about it is how many of these insurgents are only doing this because their families are threatened. I remember all too well the stories my uncle used to tell me about his tours in vietnam and how the civilians had to use guerilla warfare against our troops or watch their children die."

I mistakenly read the above and thought you were giving 'understanding' as to why they do what they do.

The point remains the same though, I really don't see any bitching coming from the liberals about what the terrorists over there do, but they are the first ones to speak up if they disagree with something the coalition has done. This has been the case from the beginning of this board. Go back and read, you'll be surprised. Some give 'reasoning and understanding' to why they terrorize, and claim it's our fault - but no condemning being done. Then they jump on the bandwagon at the site of any US wrongdoing.

Reasoning and understanding the enemies position and constantly condemning the USA actions can be misconstrued as supporting the enemy.

 

[Moi]

Originally posted by DKSuddeth
I certainly didn't mean to communicate that idea, my apologies for not making my stance clearer. While I don't feel this rises to war crime level because the individual in question was not physically hurt, it certainly warrants punishment, at least in my eyes.

Agreed, losing your livelihood seems like punishment to me.

Originally posted by DKSuddeth
As a marine, I was taught how to use 'deadly force' as well as other forms of 'force' and the rules for using it. You, or I, would be no more justified in assaulting stone cold steve austin for saying he was going to put the smackdown on us as we would for sticking our boot up peewee hermans ass for saying 'nanabooboo' to us. The threat of physical danger must be real, not perceived, to us or anyone around us.

I don't lose sleep over things like this nor am I going to make this an issue of being ashamed of my country or whatever. Col. West isn't my country nor is he my government.

He did something that saved lives. I am quite sure that in the ordinary course of business he doesn't go around beating up people but truly believed that he was responding to a life threatening situation. I have no idea what most of the above meant, but it seems clear to me that Col. West was indeed a crazed madman who flouted the law, he would have killed this guy or seriously maimed him. He didn't. Perhaps he shouldn't have allowed others to beat the guy up, but there's a big difference between allowing that and putting his foot up their whatevers.

I'm pretty convinced that he saved lives and it seems that most people, especially those in the know, believe so too. So it would seem that he used the exact amount of force for a real, not perceived, threat, saved the lives of his fellow soldiers and possibly Iraqi citizens too, and that he paid a price which allowed for justice.

 

[jon_forward]

the differance here between Lt.Col West and what would have happened had the sides changed is that this POOR IRAQI scumbag is still alive and well. a little deaf in one ear maybe, few bumps and bruises that heal. after getting needed info Lt.Col West stopped , do you think for one second the iraqi would have stopped? sure..right after he puts a cap in the guys head!!!! Lt.Col saved lives...lives on BOTH sides and I feel he should get a fucking medal for having the restraint to NOT cap the scumbag camelshit coward!!! the vast majority of iraqi people are glad we are there...the bad guys that are targeting our people were the same ones that were targeting their own people before we got there.a bad guy is a bad guy, dont make no differance to me wether he is after USA or IRAQI. they need to be stopped by any means nessacery.

 

[Annie]

Jon-
I whole-heartedly agree with you, a medal and a promotion.

Mistreatment of prisoners should never be condoned, in this case though, he wasn't as much a prisoner as an active participant who was witholding information. If regular interrogation isn't working, irregular interrogation needs to be employed.

We need leaders to protect our troops, keep their eye on the mission, and accomplish it asap.

 

[lilcountriegal]

Just for those following this story... the outcome is is a fine.

Lt. Col West fined $5,000

 

[jon_forward]

hope someone sets up a fund for the Lt.Col, is less then or right at one months pay but I dont feel he should be hammered this hard,, a reprimand would have been plenty. the american people will have to give him his well-deserved medal!!!

 

[Johnney]

Shit let him interogate Saddam!!!

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by Johnney
Shit let him interogate Saddam!!!

Now THAT's a great idea!

Sad to say that the liberals would defend him though should he receive less treatment than the ass kicking he deserves.

 

[lilcountriegal]

The Frontline Magazine article is linked as well as this one. Frontline's was a bit too long (IMO) to post, but the link is available for thos who are interested.

I'm pretty happy with Time's choice of the entire U.S. Military. Even with my admiration for Col West and all he's done, I still think naming him "Man of the Year" diminishes the role of every service member currently deployed in our WOT.

However, on the flip side, its nice to see some positive feedback for Col. West given the majority of negative criticism he recently had.

==========================================

Mag names Col. West Man of the Year
FrontPage honors officer 'for protecting the lives of his troops'
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: January 2, 2004
1:00 a.m. Eastern

© 2004 WorldNetDaily.com

While Time honored the U.S. military as the men and women of the year for 2003, online commentary site Frontpage Magazine chose just one of those soldiers for recognition: Col. Allen B. West, the officer who used shock interrogation tactics in Iraq to thwart an impending attack on American troops and who nearly faced a court martial over the incident.

"FrontPage Magazine's Man of the Year has shown true courage, compassion and heroism in the face of battle. … He has been on the frontlines of the War on Terror in the heart of the Iraqi resistance. He undertook extraordinary measures to safeguard the lives of his men, to protect Americans under attack by bloodthirsty Islamist gangleaders," Ben Johnson, associate editor, wrote of West.

As WorldNetDaily reported, under threat of an attack, West took charge of the interrogation of an Iraqi policeman, Yahya Jhodri Hamoody, determined to flush out details as he warned subordinates "it could get ugly." Threatening to kill the Iraqi if he didn't talk, West fired a pistol near the policeman's head.

The scared policeman then immediately disclosed the information, leading to the arrest of two Iraqis last August and cessation of attacks on West's 4th Infantry Division battalion.

At a hearing in November, West was asked by his defense attorney if he would do it again.

"If it's about the lives of my men and their safety, I'd go through hell with a gasoline can," he said.

"But that's what's going on out there in the streets here, and that's how I feel about my boys," he told the hearing, held in one of Saddam Hussein's lavish palaces. "There is not a person in this room I would not sacrifice my life for."

Last month, West accepted Article 15 non-judicial punishment from the commanding general of the 4th Infantry Division and was fined $5,000, sparing him court martial proceedings.

Wrote Johnson: "The disgraceful treatment of Col. Allen B. West by the U.S. Armed Forces is practically unforgivable. In the midst of war, West did what was necessary to keep the troops committed to his charge from becoming the latest headline detailing the Fedayeen's postwar sabotage. His interrogation was not nearly as vicious as the tactics of Saddam's men in 1991, their savaging of POWs and raping of female captives. This level of dedication, this commitment to preserving life, this steadfast commitment to bear any burden to keep his troops safe, shows why West had been so highly decorated in his two decades in the service. For his actions, he should have received high honors; instead, he was deprived of his job, publicly humiliated and disowned by his own superiors."

Link to article

Frontline Magazine article

 

[bamthin]

I am a veteran and I understand the rigors and stresses of what West and his men are subjected to. However, I think to turn things around in Iraq, the US needs to take the extra steps to be as professional and humanitarian as possible. In the end, we need to win the "hearts and minds" of the Iraqis and they are watching all of this. The US needs to regain trust. I think it will actually save US lives in the long run and make a sooner exit more plausible. If we act like the brutal authority that was there before the US came in, what kind of message is that? To you veterans who have posted support, please veiw the following short film and tell me if you agree with the general attitude these men are exhibiting.

LINK


A TRUE soldier respects life and tries to preserve it where and when he/she can. A TRUE soldier takes no joy in ending life. I was disgusted by this.


-Bam

 

[lilcountriegal]

However, I think to turn things around in Iraq, the US needs to take the extra steps to be as professional and humanitarian as possible.

That is exactly what the U.S. is doing. They take extreme precautionary measures to make sure they are not hurting innocent civilians. They are rebuilding schools, police stations, colleges. Many Iraqis are now able to hold a job and/or have the opportunity for an education. Is that not humanitarian as possible?

. I think it will actually save US lives in the long run and make a sooner exit more plausible

What will save US lives in the long run IS a sooner exit. However, doing that prematurely could have devastating consequences. That much, we already know.

Concerning your video... as a "veteran" what was your opinion of the video released by Saddam's military of our POW's? How bout the one where they had thrown all our boys' bodies in a big heap pile, laughing, dancing around the bodies, while you can clearly see the throats were slit on our military guys?

Please. You post a 20 second video clip of our military shooting with no kind of background information. Did you also conveniently overlook this sentence:

CROWLEY: Wounded, another Iraqi writhes on the ground next to his gun. The Marines kill him -- then cheer.

See the part where he was 'lying next to his gun'? Gee... I wonder what he was doing with a gun. Shooting at our military maybe? Nah.. probably just taking it to school.

That video does nothing for me. If he was using that gun to shoot at our guys, then my only response to their shooting him dead is: "Better get another hour of practice target shooting... ya shoulda had him with the first bullet".

 

[bamthin]

Two wrongs do not make a right, and that is especially true in this situation in Iraq. Because of the unilateral nature of the pre-emptive strike, combined with the lack of evidence that was expected to be found (WMD), I beleive the US needs to be especially mindful of it's Ps and Q's. The methods we use to interrogate should be the model of what we expect the next generation of Iraqi police to employ when the US has departed.

Isn't one of the new reasons for invading Iraq the fact that we are appalled at the methods Saddam's henchmen used against insurgents? What example are we setting? If we don't do this right, aren't we going to have to go back in later and fix it?

While I don't beleive that West should have been court martialed, I think any talk of him getting a medal is ridiculous. Condoning West's actions will make the attitudes of the soldiers in that video more acceptable and thus, more widespread. We need to encourage honor, respect and the rule of law. The same things that our soldiers are taught.

-Bam

 

[Johnney]

Originally posted by bamthin
I am a veteran and I understand the rigors and stresses of what West and his men are subjected to. However, I think to turn things around in Iraq, the US needs to take the extra steps to be as professional and humanitarian as possible. In the end, we need to win the "hearts and minds" of the Iraqis and they are watching all of this. The US needs to regain trust. I think it will actually save US lives in the long run and make a sooner exit more plausible. If we act like the brutal authority that was there before the US came in, what kind of message is that? To you veterans who have posted support, please veiw the following short film and tell me if you agree with the general attitude these men are exhibiting.

LINK


A TRUE soldier respects life and tries to preserve it where and when he/she can. A TRUE soldier takes no joy in ending life. I was disgusted by this.


-Bam

Whasts going to save lives is taking off the kid gloves and finding out whose actually in charge over there.

So some jarheads were cheering, big deal. its nothing short of what thoase assholes do to us when one of ours dies. Sure two wrongs dont make a right. but what has happened has happened, your not going to change it. its not going to bring anyof them back on either side. there are worse attrocites out there than some marines cheering becasue someone died.

 

[5stringJeff]

Originally posted by bamthin
I am a veteran and I understand the rigors and stresses of what West and his men are subjected to. However, I think to turn things around in Iraq, the US needs to take the extra steps to be as professional and humanitarian as possible. In the end, we need to win the "hearts and minds" of the Iraqis and they are watching all of this. The US needs to regain trust. I think it will actually save US lives in the long run and make a sooner exit more plausible. If we act like the brutal authority that was there before the US came in, what kind of message is that? To you veterans who have posted support, please veiw the following short film and tell me if you agree with the general attitude these men are exhibiting.

LINK

A TRUE soldier respects life and tries to preserve it where and when he/she can. A TRUE soldier takes no joy in ending life. I was disgusted by this.

-Bam

I also am a veteran. I think that you have been misled by an anti-US propaganda site.

The iraqi is lying on the ground next to a gun. What was he doing before? Was he shooting at American troops? Emplacing an IED? Supporting Iraqi rebels? The video sure doesn't say what was happening beforehand, and it looks like CNN didn't find it important enough do talk about it either (no real surprise there).
I think the Marines in the video were more than likely trying to rid the world of one more supporter of Saddam's failed regime. Hats off to them.

 

[jon_forward]

my bro was over there for 490 days, he has told me a great deal of things that go on over there we are not privy too. the #1 thing after personal safety was the safety of the normal Iraqi people. he had iraqi's coming up to him, old and young thanking him and the rest of the good folks over there for liberating them from saddams murderous regime.

 

[Johnney]

but the media for some reason doenst capitalize on that. they would rather the world see what a few handfulls of shitheads do.

 

[bamthin]

That's wonderful to hear jon_forward. I have no doubt that the majority of the guys over there are doing the right thing. I presented that movie to remind everyone that there are a few loose cannons like West and the guys in that movie that we need to get under control.

Even if the enemy doesn't follow the rules, the US needs to. We have an image to project to win the hearts and minds. Breaking our rules and acting dishonorably will not make us any freinds and we need as many as we can get over there.

West broke the rules, he was fined and it's over.

-Bam

 

[nbdysfu]

If I didn't mishear West was also the one to turn himself in immediately after he successfully extracted the crucial imformation from the recalcitrant militant. Loose cannon in one respect, but in the other respects he reigned himself in, and his actions saved lives.

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by bamthin
That's wonderful to hear jon_forward. I have no doubt that the majority of the guys over there are doing the right thing. I presented that movie to remind everyone that there are a few loose cannons like West and the guys in that movie that we need to get under control.

Even if the enemy doesn't follow the rules, the US needs to. We have an image to project to win the hearts and minds. Breaking our rules and acting dishonorably will not make us any freinds and we need as many as we can get over there.

West broke the rules, he was fined and it's over.

-Bam

Even the everyday Iraqi citizen is smart enough to see that the 'insurgents' need to be manhandled occasionally to get results.

If they bomb a military installation, it's ok to obliterate the insurgents in return. But, it's not ok to scare someone into divulging information that SAVED lives? Personally, I would have shot him between the eyes after I got the info I needed.

 

[bamthin]

Whether the guy had info or not, West and his men didn't know that. In this case the end justified the means, but what of the precedent set for future interrogations of innocents who have no info and are law abiding citizens? It sounds like some of you may think that torturing them may be OK. If that is the case, what is the difference between Saddam's brutal treatment of insurgents and that of the US?


C'mon, we need to show them how great a people we are and how we depend on the rule of law and the respect of civil liberties.

Personally, I would have shot him between the eyes after I got the info I needed.

I find your attitude disturbing.

-Bam