NJ Supreme Court claims more $ = better education

chanel

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Jun 8, 2009
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People's Republic of NJ
Gov. Chris Christie's deep cuts to state school aid last year left New Jersey's schools unable to provide a "thorough and efficient" education to the state's nearly 1.4 million school children, a Superior Court judge found today.

Gov. Chris Christie's office said that Judge Doyne himself acknowledged that the Supreme Court limited his inquiry by excluding consideration of the state's budget crisis.

"Critically, he also noted that, despite the fact New Jersey meets or exceeds all other states in spending for 'at-risk' students, many of those students continue to fail to meet basic educational proficiency," said spokesman Michael Drewniak. "The Supreme Court should at last abandon the failed assumption of the last three decades that more money equals better education, and stop treating our state’s fiscal condition as an inconvenient afterthought."Christie slashed state aid by $820 million last year, and Doyne found that altogether, the state would have needed twice that much — $1.6 billion — to fully fund the School Funding Reform Act formula.

The state Attorney General's Office argued that the cuts were necessary because of New Jersey's dire financial situation. Doyne acknowledged that, but still found against the state.

Christie's budget cuts left N.J. schools unable to provide 'thorough and efficient' education, judge rules | NJ.com

Big blow for Christie. And the taxpayers of NJ. It's not just the unions folks. Here in NJ, every out of control spending program has been legislated by the bench.
 
"The difficulty in addressing New Jersey's fiscal crisis and its constitutionally mandated obligation to educate our children requires an exquisite balance not easily attained," Doyne wrote. "Something need be done to equitably address these competing imperatives. That answer, though, is beyond the purview of this report. For the limited question posed to the Master, it is clear the State has failed to carry its burden." from OP

Interesting dilemma. New Jersey has some of the nicest schools and parks and outrageous property taxes. Princeton is beautiful, Camden a disaster. But Reagan raised taxes in lots of areas, why can't republicans today do the same.
 
"The difficulty in addressing New Jersey's fiscal crisis and its constitutionally mandated obligation to educate our children requires an exquisite balance not easily attained," Doyne wrote. "Something need be done to equitably address these competing imperatives. That answer, though, is beyond the purview of this report. For the limited question posed to the Master, it is clear the State has failed to carry its burden." from OP

Interesting dilemma. New Jersey has some of the nicest schools and parks and outrageous property taxes. Princeton is beautiful, Camden a disaster. But Reagan raised taxes in lots of areas, why can't republicans today do the same.

You do realize that this is basically just the money above and beyond local property taxes that the state has to provide? How much more can you raise taxes in a state that is already swamped by them? At what point to people just start leaving Joisey?

Keep remembering that if you raise taxes on a person by say $2,000 and that is enough for them to leave, you dont just lose the $2k, you lose thier whole tax payment.
 
I don't know where they will get an extra 2 billion dollars. As many of you know, I am a member of the NJEA and a Republican. I expect the teachers to be celebrating today. What they won't realize is that it is likely the teachers who will be making up a significant part of the shortfall. I fear a WI type battle soon.
 
A multi-million dollar school and highly paid teachers do not guarantee a better education.

Tell me why do children who are home schooled at a kitchen table out perform children who attend a "modern" school and are taught by "professionals"?

Academic Achievement and Demographic Traits of Homeschool Students: A Nationwide Study » Academic Leadership Journal

Some thoughts (in random order)...

Public Schools exist as a "safety net" net for homeschoolers. If homeschooling doesn't work for the parents, then the kids can be enrolled in Public Schools. Those failed cases then would show up in public school scores. In other words homeschool is a self-selection for success process, parents select it and if it works they continue. If the situation fails then those students (in most cases) end up in public schools.

By definition, homeschooling parents are going to be much more engaged with their children and that child's education. Parental involvement is probably one of the biggest factors in raising an educated child.

Teacher:Student ratios have a huge impact on on student performance. In a homeschool you have basically a 1:1 ratio on the subject being taught. That ensures maximum engagement between the teacher and the student. Much more difficult for students to get off task when total engagement occurs. On the other hand public schools in elementary have 20-30 students, in the high schools classes may be about the same size but will rotate through so a teacher there might be trying to work with 100-150 students per day. Take unprepared "amateurs" used to dealing with 1:1 ratios and put them in a room with 20-30 students or in a rotating class schedule where they have 100-150 students per day and then compare their performance with "professionals". Personally I doubt they (the students) will do as well.

Homeschool students, when compared on an individual basis, do not always outperform public school counterparts. Homeschool students performance compares favorably with public school performance when comparing populations. As previously mentioned homeschool success tends to be a self-selection process, public schools have no option - they must take all comers. I think a more accurate comparison might occur if you compare self-selection process to self-selection process. Compare homeschool middle and high school student to self-selecting public school students in advanced, honors, AP, and IB curriculum, in such an apples to apples comparison my premise is that the difference would not be as pronounced.​





[DISCLAIMER: I am not downplaying the importance or effectiveness of homeschooling. I'm simplying trying to point out some logical, analytic, non-emotion driven, non-partisan reasons for why homeschoolers (as a population) may perform better on standard measurements then public school students (as a general population). And no this isn't being written to defend public school teachers.]


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"The difficulty in addressing New Jersey's fiscal crisis and its constitutionally mandated obligation to educate our children requires an exquisite balance not easily attained," Doyne wrote. "Something need be done to equitably address these competing imperatives. That answer, though, is beyond the purview of this report. For the limited question posed to the Master, it is clear the State has failed to carry its burden." from OP

Interesting dilemma. New Jersey has some of the nicest schools and parks and outrageous property taxes. Princeton is beautiful, Camden a disaster. But Reagan raised taxes in lots of areas, why can't republicans today do the same.

Could it be that Republicans actually learned that raising taxes does not reduce the deficit? Even you should understand that because the deficit went up under Reagan, despite the fact that he raised taxes.
 
A multi-million dollar school and highly paid teachers do not guarantee a better education.

Tell me why do children who are home schooled at a kitchen table out perform children who attend a "modern" school and are taught by "professionals"?

Academic Achievement and Demographic Traits of Homeschool Students: A Nationwide Study » Academic Leadership Journal

Some thoughts (in random order)...
Public Schools exist as a "safety net" net for homeschoolers. If homeschooling doesn't work for the parents, then the kids can be enrolled in Public Schools. Those failed cases then would show up in public school scores. In other words homeschool is a self-selection for success process, parents select it and if it works they continue. If the situation fails then those students (in most cases) end up in public schools.

By definition, homeschooling parents are going to be much more engaged with their children and that child's education. Parental involvement is probably one of the biggest factors in raising an educated child.

Teacher:Student ratios have a huge impact on on student performance. In a homeschool you have basically a 1:1 ratio on the subject being taught. That ensures maximum engagement between the teacher and the student. Much more difficult for students to get off task when total engagement occurs. On the other hand public schools in elementary have 20-30 students, in the high schools classes may be about the same size but will rotate through so a teacher there might be trying to work with 100-150 students per day. Take unprepared "amateurs" used to dealing with 1:1 ratios and put them in a room with 20-30 students or in a rotating class schedule where they have 100-150 students per day and then compare their performance with "professionals". Personally I doubt they (the students) will do as well.

Homeschool students, when compared on an individual basis, do not always outperform public school counterparts. Homeschool students performance compares favorably with public school performance when comparing populations. As previously mentioned homeschool success tends to be a self-selection process, public schools have no option - they must take all comers. I think a more accurate comparison might occur if you compare self-selection process to self-selection process. Compare homeschool middle and high school student to self-selecting public school students in advanced, honors, AP, and IB curriculum, in such an apples to apples comparison my premise is that the difference would not be as pronounced.​



[DISCLAIMER: I am not downplaying the importance or effectiveness of homeschooling. I'm simplying trying to point out some logical, analytic, non-emotion driven, non-partisan reasons for why homeschoolers (as a population) may perform better on standard measurements then public school students (as a general population). And no this isn't being written to defend public school teachers.]


>>>>

I agree with most of what you said above. I will, however, point out that there is no real evidence that the student/teacher ratio has a significant impact on anything. That is nothing more than a myth perpetrated by teachers unions and teachers. Homeschooling works best when the parent does not restrict learning to the assignment, but engages their child throughout the day, no matter what they are doing. They can use a shopping trip to teach math skills, a trip to the cleaners to discuss chemistry, and turn walking the dog into a lesson on biology and ecology.

Homeschooling gives practical and applied lessons to reinforce the books. This means that more than one way of learning is engaged, and the lesson is reinforced. That will never happen in a school environment, no matter how much money, or how many teachers, we hire. It is not a function of the student/teacher ratio at all.
 
I would imagine that the New Jersey Supreme Court is far to the left, so this ruling isn't surprising. Supporters of the education status quo can't be bothered with facts.
 
Yes they are. And I don't want to bore anyone with the stories of waste and corruption at the 30 "poor districts" whose per pupil costs are over 20K. But I am curious to know if other states operate this way. Can the courts overrule the governor and legislature without any concern for the budget? When school, mental health, or other entitlements are cut, can the court unilaterally reinstate them? Seems like a dangerous precedent doesn't it?
 
I do not see how more money is better. We put more money into our education system then many other nations. Sometimes I do not see how the philosophy of throwing more money at it makes any sense.

Efficiency is the key. If one nation has 1,000,000.00 dollars, and they can put 90% of it to real use, and another has 1,500,000.00 dollars, and they can only put 60% to real use, their both doing the same amount of use, but one is saving 500,000.00 out of pure efficiency.

Sorry if that is a bad example, just trying to explain how I think the "throw money" idea, is wrong.
 
The state of New York spends the most money on education per pupil in the country.
They are in the lower 10 in test scores.
 
Gov. Chris Christie's deep cuts to state school aid last year left New Jersey's schools unable to provide a "thorough and efficient" education to the state's nearly 1.4 million school children, a Superior Court judge found today.

Gov. Chris Christie's office said that Judge Doyne himself acknowledged that the Supreme Court limited his inquiry by excluding consideration of the state's budget crisis.

"Critically, he also noted that, despite the fact New Jersey meets or exceeds all other states in spending for 'at-risk' students, many of those students continue to fail to meet basic educational proficiency," said spokesman Michael Drewniak. "The Supreme Court should at last abandon the failed assumption of the last three decades that more money equals better education, and stop treating our state’s fiscal condition as an inconvenient afterthought."Christie slashed state aid by $820 million last year, and Doyne found that altogether, the state would have needed twice that much — $1.6 billion — to fully fund the School Funding Reform Act formula.

The state Attorney General's Office argued that the cuts were necessary because of New Jersey's dire financial situation. Doyne acknowledged that, but still found against the state.

Christie's budget cuts left N.J. schools unable to provide 'thorough and efficient' education, judge rules | NJ.com

Big blow for Christie. And the taxpayers of NJ. It's not just the unions folks. Here in NJ, every out of control spending program has been legislated by the bench.

So let me see if I understand.

The liberals hate NJ so much that even after defeated by VOTE, they go to court, get a judge to use partial info, then LIE, to get the economical destruction they want so bad.

Is that correct, is that what these idiots champion?

oh, and before anyone accuses me of not loving children, please show me where more money has improved grades.
 
This is what scares me. I do not agree with Christie on a few important issues, but I respect what he is trying to do. This state is mess and I honestly believe his intentions are good. The pension changes he has proposed are being litigated. The affordable housing requirements he's abolished are being challenged. He hasn't touched illegal immigration yet, but it may because he's got too many other battles going on. I think the Court wants him to fail. And they may succeed in that.
 

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