New York Times: Europe Socialists Suffering

[Ame®icano]

They were. Recent waves of immigrants is turning them towards right.

Then they will become worse countries because of it. Netherlands actually has to shut down prisons due to a lack of prisoners. That's how progressive they are.

Certainly not because of immigrants, but due to their laws, culture and different lifestyle.

Their immigrants actually respect rule of law, otherwise they are being deported.

And they wont close those prisons, they will import prisoners from other countries instead.

 

[Ame®icano]

Spare me, and name all the "successes". I guarantee they're figments of your imagination.

And Netherland...they're so progressive they kill off babies and old folks. That's what I call CIVILIZED.

Care to back up your vague bullshit with evidence?

And these successes are many of the policies that you don't want here in the United States.

Netherland's Health Care System is 62% Government funded and is better than ours.

If you pay taxes in range 30-50 percent, plus 19% VAT taxes, you would expect more then 62% government health care funding. At least, I would.

 

[Modbert]

"The table shows 101,143 violent crimes and 919,262 property crimes in 2001. With a population of 16,171,520 (September 2002), this works out as 625.4 violent crimes per 100,000 people and 5684.4 proprety crimes. Or, to put it differently, the violent crime rate in the Netherlands in 24% higher than in the US, and the property crime rate is 55% higher."

DILACERATOR: Guns and crime in the Netherlands

That's cute but those statistics are from eight years ago. Would you not say the United States is different than eight years ago?

Also, I noticed you only used the statistics which helped your case. You ignored your own link.

How does this compare to America? The FBI's Uniform Crime Reports provide the answer. The UCR keeps track of gun use in three kinds of crime: murder, robbery and aggravated assault. There are 5.6 murders per 100,000 people in the US (page 19 of the linked PDF) with 63.4% involving firearms (table 2.9, page 23). Robberies run at 148.5 per 100,000 (p.32) with 42.0% involving guns (table 2.22, p.35). Aggravated assault occurs at a rate of 318.5 (p.36) with 18.3% gun use (table 2.24, p.38). This means that gun-related crime in the US runs at 124 per 100,000 people.

This is substantially higher than the 30 reported for the Netherlands, although the 72 rate in Amsterdam comes rather closer.

124 to 30.

Besides, I'd rather see more recent statistics. And also, those are just violent crime and property crime, not all crime.

Even the article's author says this in the comments:

I do agree with much of what you say. The numbers I have presented certainly don't even come close to proving any causal link between the two, either way. There is a widespread perception here in Europe that America is an extremely violent place, and that this is due to in no small part to gun ownership.

The high crime rate here in the Netherlands is also partly due to pathetic law enforcement as the problems that you listed. However, the British experience with completely banning hand guns and the subsequent rapid rise in gun crime does point to the futility of trying to keep guns out of the hands of criminals. The high rate of gun ownership in Switzerland for instance has not resulted in high gun crime, although the type of military weapon the Swiss reservists keep in their homes is not something you'd be able to carry around.

Therefore, you fail, epic.

 

[Modbert]

Certainly not because of immigrants, but due to their laws, culture and different lifestyle.

Their immigrants actually respect rule of law, otherwise they are being deported.

And they wont close those prisons, they will import prisoners from other countries instead.

That is correct. They are importing prisoners from Belgium.

 

[Modbert]

If you pay taxes in range 30-50 percent, plus 19% VAT taxes, you would expect more then 62% government health care funding. At least, I would.

I'm not sure about the taxes in Netherlands. However the VAT taxes is more for tourists than anything. However, one can agree the VAT tax is a toss-up on whether it's good or not.

 

[Ame®icano]

If you pay taxes in range 30-50 percent, plus 19% VAT taxes, you would expect more then 62% government health care funding. At least, I would.

I'm not sure about the taxes in Netherlands. However the VAT taxes is more for tourists than anything. However, one can agree the VAT tax is a toss-up on whether it's good or not.

I lived and worked in several European countries.

VAT is a tax on goods and services. Lowest is in Switzerland, 7.5%, and highest are around 22%, several countries.

You're wrong about tourists. Actually, tourists are only group that is getting refund on VAT taxes. It's similar to Canadian GST and PST taxes, you can have them refunded.

 

[Modbert]

I lived and worked in several European countries.

VAT is a tax on goods and services. Lowest is in Switzerland, 7.5%, and highest are around 22%, several countries.

You're wrong about tourists. Actually, tourists are only group that is getting refund on VAT taxes. It's similar to Canadian GST and PST taxes, you can have them refunded.

I do know that Switzerland has a tax at 7.5%. Personally, VAT is something I do wish to know more about. We're not far off from having something similar here considering our system. Though if we had to have it implemented, I'd rather see it below Switzerland's than at some of the others.

 

[Ame®icano]

I lived and worked in several European countries.

VAT is a tax on goods and services. Lowest is in Switzerland, 7.5%, and highest are around 22%, several countries.

You're wrong about tourists. Actually, tourists are only group that is getting refund on VAT taxes. It's similar to Canadian GST and PST taxes, you can have them refunded.

I do know that Switzerland has a tax at 7.5%. Personally, VAT is something I do wish to know more about. We're not far off from having something similar here considering our system. Though if we had to have it implemented, I'd rather see it below Switzerland's than at some of the others.

I am against all unconstitutional taxes.

If VAT is implemented, it would be on federal level (unconstitutional), at the top of state sales taxes.

American people wouldn't be happy with more taxes. If you take a look at liberal states (i.e. CA, NY), they already have highest taxes and biggest deficits. In the same states, when shit hits the fan, instead of cutting the budget, they raise taxes. It could work only for so long...

I think that true democrats today realized that, running more deficits wont fix the problem.

Voters in Europe realized it, and American will too. Soon.

 

[AllieBaba]

I would like to take this opportunity to point out that The Netherlands no longer has Hollandaise inmates because they have made every illegal activity LEGAL....

 

[Modbert]

I would like to take this opportunity to point out that The Netherlands no longer has Hollandaise inmates because they have made every illegal activity LEGAL....

Really? Murder is legal there? Rape is legal there?

Care to be a little more specific there you liar? At least Americano is honest in his arguments, you're a lying bitch about yours.

 

[Modbert]

I am against all unconstitutional taxes.

If VAT is implemented, it would be on federal level (unconstitutional), at the top of state sales taxes.

American people wouldn't be happy with more taxes. If you take a look at liberal states (i.e. CA, NY), they already have highest taxes and biggest deficits. In the same states, when shit hits the fan, instead of cutting the budget, they raise taxes. It could work only for so long...

I think that true democrats today realized that, running more deficits wont fix the problem.

Voters in Europe realized it, and American will too. Soon.

And what about if it's on the state level? American People are never happy with any taxes, that's nothing new.

 

[Ame®icano]

I am against all unconstitutional taxes.

If VAT is implemented, it would be on federal level (unconstitutional), at the top of state sales taxes.

American people wouldn't be happy with more taxes. If you take a look at liberal states (i.e. CA, NY), they already have highest taxes and biggest deficits. In the same states, when shit hits the fan, instead of cutting the budget, they raise taxes. It could work only for so long...

I think that true democrats today realized that, running more deficits wont fix the problem.

Voters in Europe realized it, and American will too. Soon.

And what about if it's on the state level? American People are never happy with any taxes, that's nothing new.

Most states have sales taxes and they are pretty much the same as VAT, just different name. For instance, if you buy a car in US and you ship it to Europe, you can ask for refund, although you will pay import/custom and VAT taxes in Europe.

You're right, we don't like taxes, but we rather see them on the state level then on federal. At least I do. Federal government is out of control, and only way to put a leash on them is to limit their size and funding.

 

[AllieBaba]

I would like to take this opportunity to point out that The Netherlands no longer has Hollandaise inmates because they have made every illegal activity LEGAL....

Really? Murder is legal there? Rape is legal there?

Care to be a little more specific there you liar? At least Americano is honest in his arguments, you're a lying bitch about yours.

Wow, Doggie, the condescending, urbane mask is slipping a little there, fella. You might want to adjust yourself. It seems something might be pinching you.

 

[Ame®icano]

Today, American Democrats finally stud up against liberal socialism and hopefully returned to their path.

At the sound of moderate democrats turning back from far left, the same far left liberal socialists strike back and demand health care for illegals. They came out clean...

Twenty-nine Democrats signed on to the letter on legal immigrants, while 21 signed the letter on covering illegal immigrants. Although the leadership of the Congressional Black Caucus signed the legal-immigrant letter in their capacity as CBC officials, they signed the other letter as individual members of Congress. If Obama fall for this, it will be very very very bad... In a few weeks or months, when health care reform happens, and it will, no matter how shitty reform will be, millions of poor, non-English speaking, illegals will suddenly and overnight become "almost Americans" and will have full access to taxpayer funded "free" health care.

Europe is slowly turning from left to right, while American communists hidden behind "liberalism" having a blast. WTF?

 

[Polk]

Just one day after socialists in Germany suffered defeat, American democrats turned against democrats and killed the public option. European turn to the right gave signal to American left that, if they continue with their socialist agenda, they will share the same fate.

Even in the midst of one of the greatest challenges to capitalism in 75 years, involving a breakdown of the financial system due to “irrational exuberance,” greed and the weakness of regulatory systems, European Socialist parties and their left-wing cousins have not found a compelling response, let alone taken advantage of the right’s failures.

German voters clobbered the Social Democratic Party on Sunday, giving it only 23 percent of the vote, its worst performance since World War II.

Europe’s Socialists Suffering Even in Downturn

Just six months ago, the same New York Times asked Obama if he was a socialist, and get reply from him: "The answer would be no". - March 7, 2009. Today, American Democrats finally stud up against liberal socialism and hopefully returned to their path.

The argument that this represents a turn to the right across Europe has already been shot to pieces. Furthermore, it's been known for a while that the public option couldn't pass Finance. The idea is either to place it in the bill on the floor or in conference committee.

 

[Polk]

Actually, if one uses common sense (I know you may have a tough time of it) the reason that the specific people in Europe lost is because they were the ones in office during the economic collapses in the respective countries. It has little to do with beliefs, rather to vote out the ones in charge during the crisis.

Socialists in France lost elections before the economic collapse, Sarcozy won in 2007.

Facing a fragmented French left that still gained seats in the legislature.

 

[Polk]

@ Dogbert

True, but I mentioned him as an argument to your statement:

...reason that the specific people in Europe lost is because they were the ones in office during the economic collapses in the respective countries

Instead of France, I could mention Belgium or Netherlands, my argument would still be correct.

Both of which had their last general elections before the crash. Conservatives won the Belgian election, but I don't see how you figure conservatives fared well in the Dutch elections. The conservative parties overall gained two seats, but the largest gainer was Socialist Party (gained 16 seats).