New Swiftvets ad hits the airwaves.

[insein]

way to run away, busch2008.

 

[Avatar4321]

In my humble opinion, Bush should denounce the ads. It may benefit his poll numbers in the short term, it might be good slander for his cause, but it will come back to bite him if he doesn't.
Bush’s own Service Record is quite vulnerable, and if ABC News is correct, the Kerry folks and his surrogates will soon unleash a relentless attack on Bush’s questionable service during the Vietnam period. What comes around goes around as they say.

President Bush already denounced all of those type ads. He cant however, stop them from saying what they are saying because then he would be violating campaign finance reform. stinking law.

Regardless, Bush's record isnt vulnerable. if it was the Democrats exploited that vulnerability months ago.

 

[busch2008]

Really? Where does it say that moveon.org isn't nonpartisan? They seem to think they are right down the middle.

http://moveon.org/about/

What did you expect? To see a message on Moveon.org that says "We are officially non nonpartisan?" They don't claim to be nonpartisan, the SBVT do.

 

[busch2008]

Slander??? The truth, no matter how unpleasant or inconvenient cannot be redefined - even by inventive liberals - as slander or libel.

And other than one statement which is open to interpretation, you have failed to show where ANY statement by the Swift Boat Vet group is false.

"Open to interpretation" is putting it kindly. He misled everyone by suggesting he served with Kerry.

 

[busch2008]

Slander??? The truth, no matter how unpleasant or inconvenient cannot be redefined - even by inventive liberals - as slander or libel.

And other than one statement which is open to interpretation, you have failed to show where ANY statement by the Swift Boat Vet group is false.

George Elliott was Kerry's commanding officer who recommended him for his highest decoration for valor, the Silver Star, awarded for events of Feb. 28, 1969, when Kerry beached his boat in the face of an enemy ambush and then pursued and killed an enemy soldier on the shore.

George Elliott (Globe account): It was a terrible mistake probably for me to sign the affidavit with those words. I'm the one in trouble here. . . . I knew it was wrong . . . In a hurry I signed it and faxed it back. That was a mistake.

In his second affidavit, however, Elliott downgraded that "terrible mistake" to an "immaterial clarification." He said in the second affidavit:

Elliott (second affidavit): I do not claim to have personal knowledge as to how Kerry shot the wounded, fleeing Viet Cong.

Elliott also said he now believes Kerry shot the man in the back, based on other accounts including a book in which Kerry is quoted as saying of the soldier, "He was running away with a live B-40 (rocket launcher) and, I thought, poised to turn around and fire it." (The book quoted by Elliott is John F. Kerry, The Complete Biography, By The Reporters Who Know Him Best.)

Elliott also says in that second affidavit, "Had I known the facts, I would not have recommended Kerry for the Silver Star for simply pursuing and dispatching a single, wounded, fleeing Viet Cong." That statement is misleading, however. It mischaracterizes the actual basis on which Kerry received his decoration.

The official citations show Kerry was not awarded the Silver Star "for simply pursuing and dispatching" the Viet Cong. In fact, the killing is not even mentioned in two of the three versions of the official citation (see "supporting documents" at right.) The citations - based on what Elliott wrote up at the time - dwell mostly on Kerry's decision to attack rather than flee from two ambushes, including one in which he led a landing party.

There's two swiftboat vets now with little credibility left. John O'Neill, Nixon stooge claims he served with Kerry when he didn't.

George Elliot, gets his memories for a book written by reporters and also was not under fire with Kerry.

 

[insein]

What did you expect? To see a message on Moveon.org that says "We are officially non nonpartisan?" They don't claim to be nonpartisan, the SBVT do.

Basically yes. Thats the definition of being partisan and having an opinion. they don't officially say our views lean to the left. In fact when asked they say that they are a non-partisan group.

http://www.moveon.org/unitednotdivided/volunteer.html?id=

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Yep they sure tell you front and center that they are bi-partisan.

 

[busch2008]

Slander??? The truth, no matter how unpleasant or inconvenient cannot be redefined - even by inventive liberals - as slander or libel.

And other than one statement which is open to interpretation, you have failed to show where ANY statement by the Swift Boat Vet group is false.

The most serious allegation in the ad is that Kerry received both the Bronze Star, his second-highest decoration, and his third purple heart, which allowed him to be sent home early, under false pretenses. But that account is flatly contradicted by Jim Rassmann, the former Army Lieutenant whom Kerry rescued that day.

Van O'Dell, a former Navy enlisted man who says he was the gunner on another Swift Boat, states in his affidavit that he was "a few yards away" from Kerry's boat on March 13, 1969 when Kerry pulled Rassman from the water. According to the official medal citations, Kerry's boat was under enemy fire at the time, and Kerry had been wounded when an enemy mine exploded near his own boat. O'Dell insists "there was no fire" at the time, adding: "I did not hear any shots, nor did any hostile fire hit any boats" other than his own, PCF-3.

Others in the ad back up that account. Jack Chenoweth, who was a Lieutenant (junior grade) commanding PCF-3, said Kerry's boat "fled the scene" after a mine blast disabled PCF-3, and returned only later "when it was apparent that there was no return fire." And Larry Thurlow, who says he commanded a third Swift Boat that day, says "Kerry fled while we stayed to fight," and returned only later "after no return fire occurred."

A serious discrepancy in the account of Kerry's accusers came to light Aug. 19, when the Washington Post reported that Navy records describe Thurlow himself as dodging enemy bullets during the same incident, for which Thurlow also was awarded the Bronze Star.

Thurlow's citation - which the Post said it obtained under the Freedom of Information Act - says that "all units began receiving enemy small arms and automatic weapons fire from the river banks" after the first explosion. The citation describes Thurlow as leaping aboard the damaged PCF-3 and rendering aid "while still under enemy fire," and adds: "His actions and courage in the face of enemy fire . . . were in keeping with the highest traditions of the United States Naval Service."

A separate document that recommended Thurlow for that decoration states that all Thurlow's actions "took place under constant enemy small arms fire." It was signed by Elliott.

The Post quoted Thurlow as saying he had lost his citation years earlier and had been under the impression that he received the award for aiding the damaged boat and its crew, and that his own award would be "fraudulent" if based on his facing enemy fire. The Post reported that, after hearing the citation read to him, Thurlow said: "It's like a Hollywood presentation here, which wasn't the case. . . My personal feeling was always that I got the award for coming to the rescue of the boat that was mined. This casts doubt on anybody's awards. It is sickening and disgusting. . . . I am here to state that we weren't under fire."

None of those in the attack ad by the Swift Boat group actually served on Kerry's boat. And their statements are contrary to the accounts of Kerry and those who served under him.


And that's four Swiftboat Vets for Bush down, Van O'Dell,
and Larry Thurlow. Not to mention none of the men really served with Kerry on Kerry's boat. Though they suggest they did.

 

[insein]

Its lovely how this newfound love for Veterans that the Democrats have is only if said veterans support their cause. Anyone that opposes their views is outright dismissed as a Right-wing hate-monger.

250 veterans have given some sort of quote or portion or approval for the book. 60 Vets have given personal affidavits contradicting Kerry's ever changing war stories. Everyone of them is a Right-wing hate monger?

Kerry can end all this yesterday if he simply releases ALL of his records and proves to the world that the Vets are lieing. If his records show that his story matches up, then he has nothing to worry about. Perhaps that is the reason he will not release them though.

Im not sure which side to take on this situation because its he said/he said. Im more inclined to believe 60 eye witnesses who havent changed their story in 30 years compared to 1 man who has changed many aspects of his story over the course of 30 years.

Furthermore, what Kerry did when he got back is reprehensible. These men never committed atrocities. Yet Kerry accused them of such. He ruined many of their lives because of his anti-soldier sentiment during the Vietnam era. Yet liberals never acknowledge that part. These poor guys had their lives torn inside out because of baseless accusations about, murder, rape and carnage. People spit on them, called them baby killers, mentally and physically abused them all because of the notion that they had done the things that Kerry said. For that alone, Kerry is a despicable human being.

 

[musicman]

What did you expect? To see a message on Moveon.org that says "We are officially non nonpartisan?" They don't claim to be nonpartisan, the SBVT do.

Your thinking is ass-backwards. The fact that John Kerry doesn't come off well in the harsh glare of the truth doesn't make the SBVT partisan.

 

[Merlin1047]

And that's four Swiftboat Vets for Bush down, Van O'Dell,
and Larry Thurlow. Not to mention none of the men really served with Kerry on Kerry's boat. Though they suggest they did.

Ah yes, you pick a few nits out of 35 year old accounts and puff out your chest and declare victory. How pathetic. The statement "I served on kerry's boat" was never intended as a claim that he served WITH kerry on the same boat. That was seized upon by those like you whose purpose it is to discredit these vets by falsely characterizing them as liars. As far as the minor differences between recollections, the confusion inherent in any action is bound to result in some minor discrepancies. That does not make the entire account false.

But there is really no point in refuting your argument because it is not your purpose to find the truth. Your purpose is simply to muddy the water and to discredit honorable men. You do this in a vain attempt to silence the voices of truth. But the harder you and your hero kerry try, the more credence you lend to those voices.

They can't be silenced by petty pickers of nits like you.
They can't be silenced by sleazy politicians and lawyers.
And they certainly can't be silenced by kerry's lawsuit.