New RAND study says what many of us have been saying all along

[maineman]

Sounds like you've no more to say.....
Don't you want to elaborate on that.....enlighten us all a little....

In the midst of the car bombs, murders, and just people in general killing each other.....what exactly do you suggest, other than a large occupying force?

I, for one can't wait to hear your recommendations....

Of course..we all know that you could give a shit about hearing my recommendations...my point here was that NONE of your seven missions cut and pasted from the article is something that should or could or ought to be done by a large standing occupying army.

and you exhibit typical moronic alpha1 thinking....when your current strategy is not working, what else is there to do but continue it and assume that it will start working tomorrow...right? write?

The RAND study - which I just ordered this afternoon and cannot wait to read - suggests that "American military forces can't keep up with training local militaries to match the growth of Muslim insurgent groups. Police should be trained by professional police trainers." - (ergo: not soldiers)

and...

American military prowess should focus "on border and coastal surveillance, technical intelligence collection, air mobility, large-scale logistics, and special operations against high-value targets."

I have suggested long ago that pulling our troops to the border where they could interdict the supply of weapons from Iran and Syria would be a great first step.

But you think: Let's SURGE some more! right? write?

 

[maineman]

Casually accepted collateral damage and humanitarian mission don't really belong together.....?

Thats taking the high and moral road.....simplistic, unrealistic, and just plain disingenuous, but its the high road.

When Clinton was flinging 45 or 50 Cruise missles on their 4 or 5 hour journey into the darkness of Afghanistan, was that targeting casual...alot can change in 4 or 5 hours....
How about the factories of the Sudan? was that not casually accepting collateral damage?

I even remember the crack Arianna Huffington made about that....

"THE decision to send Tomahawk cruise missiles against the El Shifa factory in Sudan turns out to have been based on evidence so flimsy that even James Bond would have refrained from acting on it."

Was Bosnia a humanitarian mission?
Remember any high altitude bombing there?
Think anybody wearing a dress or holding a kids hand might have been at the wrong place at the wrong time.....

So lets our collective heads out of the clouds and face reality.....war is ugly...even with precision bombs, but not as ugly as we could make it ....if thats our aim....

it seems that the sum total of your argument in support of Bush's horrible war boils down to: "well... gee... Clinton kinda did the same thing".


Who gives a shit? Bubba can't be reelected. This war was the concoction of President Bush. America doesn't CARE if Bill Clinton has some old dried dogshit on his shoe...Bush is waste deep in wet cow manure right now. Pointing a finger at Clinton will not make the mistakes of this administration any less egregious. sorry.

 

[Alpha1]

it seems that the sum total of your argument in support of Bush's horrible war boils down to: "well... gee... Clinton kinda did the same thing".

But that is what it boils down to....Bush is doing what we have done for a thousand years....use our might to fight an enemy....the same way Clinton approached the problem.....you don't condemn Clinton for doing the same things and yet badger Bush for the same approach....did you expect GW to invent some new and provocative way of dealing with these problems....if you did, you're an ass....and while you bash Bush and remain mum on the same things from Clinton, you're still an ass....THAT is the sum total of my argument....

Who gives a shit? Bubba can't be reelected. This war was the concoction of President Bush. America doesn't CARE if Bill Clinton has some old dried dogshit on his shoe...Bush is waste deep in wet cow manure right now. Pointing a finger at Clinton will not make the mistakes of this administration any less egregious. sorry.

I don't point a finger at Clinton and accuse him of mistakes....nor Bush....
they are fighting the way we have fought for centuries.....and the fact that WE as a country have discovered no better way is just too fuckin' bad....but that the way it is.....

 

[maineman]

I don't point a finger at Clinton and accuse him of mistakes....nor Bush....
they are fighting the way we have fought for centuries.....and the fact that WE as a country have discovered no better way is just too fuckin' bad....but that the way it is.....

Your unwillingness to look at our current strategy and even think to envision any better way is sad, and a bit scary. Do you really not think that our enemies are envisioning better ways to beat us? To suggest that we are destined to fight wars one way because that is how we have always done it is... stunningly stupid, in my estimation.

 

[Alpha1]

Your unwillingness to look at our current strategy and even think to envision any better way is sad, and a bit scary. Do you really not think that our enemies are envisioning better ways to beat us? To suggest that we are destined to fight wars one way because that is how we have always done it is... stunningly stupid, in my estimation.

LOL...guess thats why I didn't become a General....
I know of no other way to fight people that are intent on killing me .....these people.....blowing up civilians,.... women, children,...trying explosives to their sons and daughters?
Its too irrational for me....

I can't imagine sitting down and trying to use reason with people that exhibit no reason at all, from my cultural perspective....

If you or they expect me to accept stoning women to death, honor killing, or even living as if it was the year 1256...it just ain't gonna happen....

If your or they expect this country to flee Middle East Countries because some of them can't stand to see infidels mingle with Muslims, it ain't gonna happen...
OBL governs no country....he has no right to demand the US leave Saudi Arabia, or any other we visit with that countries permission....

So I'm fine killing every fuckin' one of them, if thats what it takes.....
I sure ain't gonna convert to please them....

So what do you suggest, O smart one.....

 

[maineman]

LOL...guess thats why I didn't become a General....
I know of no other way to fight people that are intent on killing me .....these people.....blowing up civilians,.... women, children,...trying explosives to their sons and daughters?
Its too irrational for me....

I can't imagine sitting down and trying to use reason with people that exhibit no reason at all, from my cultural perspective....

If you or they expect me to accept stoning women to death, honor killing, or even living as if it was the year 1256...it just ain't gonna happen....

If your or they expect this country to flee Middle East Countries because some of them can't stand to see infidels mingle with Muslims, it ain't gonna happen...
OBL governs no country....he has no right to demand the US leave Saudi Arabia, or any other we visit with that countries permission....

So I'm fine killing every fuckin' one of them, if thats what it takes.....
I sure ain't gonna convert to please them....

So what do you suggest, O smart one.....

Like I said, let's not kid ourselves that you really have any interest in what I suggest. And.... on the topics of islam and the middle east and the military, I AM smarter than you. You have always had a tough time with that which makes you out to tear everything I say apart and care naught for any intelligent dialog. It seems to me that we had a brief evening once maybe two years ago where we talked about golf, perhaps, but other than that... it has been you playing gotcha and me responding. I guess I am just bored with that. sorry.

 

[Alpha1]

Like I said, let's not kid ourselves that you really have any interest in what I suggest. And.... on the topics of islam and the middle east and the military, I AM smarter than you. You have always had a tough time with that which makes you out to tear everything I say apart and care naught for any intelligent dialog. It seems to me that we had a brief evening once maybe two years ago where we talked about golf, perhaps, but other than that... it has been you playing gotcha and me responding. I guess I am just bored with that. sorry.

Ahhh...don't be sorry.....I imagine getting schooled day after day is no fun....

Hey ...If you can't respond with any intelligent remarks that speak to the topic ....thats ok....maybe DCD will come along an carry the load for you as he sometimes does...Yeah....YOU AM SMARTER...this post alone confirms that....
Pat yourself on the back with one hand a scratch your balls with other...and calibrate your imaginary superiority .....
You know as well as I do that there is no reasonable way to combat an unreasonable enemy....

 

[maineman]

You know as well as I do that there is no reasonable way to combat an unreasonable enemy....

knowing that should lead you to think of new and "unreasonable" strategies then.

and if it makes your e-penis get chubby by thinking that you "school" me on anything...go for it, write.

As I have said many times, if we think that the only way to get muslims to stop wanting to kill us is by killing muslims, then we need to be prepared to kill all 1.6 billion of them.

I do not think that is a viable solution, but clearly you do....

I would suggest that you go get your cudgel, head on down to the local mosque in your nearest large metropolitan area, and start today. 1.6 billion ragheads won't just get dead all by themselves.

 

[Zoomie1980]

Knowing what we know now? Of course it seems like a bad decision. You can't justifiably hold people accountable for their actions based on what you now know in hindsight, however. I am also a righty who believes that the U.S. being in Iraq simply is no longer worth it.

Several reason have been given as to why we should stay. It's in our best interests and we are liberating a country. The problem is I'm not sure the U.S. can morally claim both of those things at the same time. We may be doing what we think is in our best interest (where the war on terror is concerned it probably isn't the best option) and at the same time we're trying to couch that by saying we're liberating a country. We can't claim a lot of moral high ground when we only liberate those countries that our in our best interests to do so.

We did the right thing, not because we deposed a dictator but because we needed large bases closer to Iran and Central Asia, especially since we left our main base in Saudi Arabia, so we can protect the free flow of oil (not steal it) and keep Iran (the real long term target) pinned in and surrounded. Claiming "moral highground" and such is simply countries couching their strategic aims in terms the mostly clueless populace can understand and accept, but it seldom has a whole lot to do with the real motive.

Back in the late 1930's and on to Pearl Harbor, Roosevelt desperately wanted us in WWII, not so much because Japan and Germany were the long term goals, but he knew, as early as 1939 that Stalin and the Soviet Union was the long term enemy we had to get position against. We could not under ANY circumstances allow Stalin to swallow the whole of continental Europe AND Japan and much of China....He knew Russia would likely eventually bleed Germany dry even without the UK and USA in the war and China would do the same to Japan, over time, leaving a vacuum Stalin would have simply occupied.

Countries and their leaders usually think in these broader terms because the career leadership (the long term civil service, not elected, temporary caretakers) hammer it into them day after day after day from the day they take office until the day they leave it, and the politicians primary job is to find ways to get the public to swallow it.

 

[actsnoblemartin]

I think alot of conservatives and general anyone who supported the war has had atleast some reservations about it

thank you, it's very honest of you to admit that, in hindsight, the invading iraq was a huge and tragic mistake. I appreciate that honesty.

It's why I'm willing to forgive politicians like Chuck Hagel or John Edwards. Even though they voted for the war, they at least have the intellectual honesty to admit it was a mistake to invade given hindsight.

 

[Alucard]

I agree completely. If Iraq, the country, had attacked us, shock and awe for three days would have been entirely appropriate.... perhaps understated!

So.... If the 9-11 attacks were carried out by Iraqi extemists 3 days or more of shock and awe bombings on innocent civilian men women and children would of been perfectly acceptable.... but if we did it for humanitarian reasons you consider it barbaric and hypocritical...

OK Sure!

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Knowing what we know now, and given the cost in blood and treasure, did we make a mistake in invading Iraq? Yes or no? It's really a very simple question that everyone has an opinion on.

A Mistake? NO. I doubt if I were President I would have invaded though.

 

[maineman]

So.... If the 9-11 attacks were carried out by Iraqi extemists 3 days or more of shock and awe bombings on innocent civilian men women and children would of been perfectly acceptable.... but if we did it for humanitarian reasons you consider it barbaric and hypocritical...

OK Sure!

did you read the phrase , "If Iraq, the country, had attacked us..."????

apparently not.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

did you read the phrase , "If Iraq, the country, had attacked us..."????

apparently not.

The point remains. It is ok to do what you claim we shouldn't have IF YOU happen to agree with the policy. In other words killing civilians and shock and awe are not the problem at all.

 

[midcan5]

RGS, idle speculation. Who can judge what would happen given another set of circumstances. Sorta presumptuous on your part and not relevant to what happened. Some things are real.

 

[Shogun]

So, are we ever going to start brainstorming new ideas for iraq regardless of how we feel about it's justification? Making this the republican version of a blowjob scandal for the next 20 years probably won't solve our problems in the mid east.

 

[CSM]

So, are we ever going to start brainstorming new ideas for iraq regardless of how we feel about it's justification? Making this the republican version of a blowjob scandal for the next 20 years probably won't solve our problems in the mid east.

Wow...the turn of phrase is sure going to invite a cooperative effort, isn't it!

However, I agree with the sentiment expressed.

 

[Shogun]

agreeing on a solution hardly requires that we all be friends. Indeed, it's more honest to acknowledge that we all disagree about how we got here while agreeing on the need for a viable solution. Also, it would be nice to keep my side from kicking the same kind of dead horse that we all hear about each time the monica reference comes around this skipping record.


I've posted my three step solution to Iraq. what do you think are such an idea's strengths and weaknesses and, if you don't mind, would you elaborate on a suggestion of your own.

 

[maineman]

So, are we ever going to start brainstorming new ideas for iraq regardless of how we feel about it's justification? Making this the republican version of a blowjob scandal for the next 20 years probably won't solve our problems in the mid east.

taking the keys away from the republican party is a high priority new idea from my perspective. My guess is that other ideas will flow more freely from an administration that is not invested in, and responsible for, the current debacle.

 

[Shogun]

taking the keys away from the republican party is a high priority new idea from my perspective. My guess is that other ideas will flow more freely from an administration that is not invested in, and responsible for, the current debacle.

Im not asking for their ideas. Im asking for your ideas. Clearly, handing keys to dems is as much a gamble as the 04 republicans have learned about Bush's ability to scrap RvW. I want to believe in Barack too. But, i'm not asking you to wear a team jersey, i'm asking for ideals about solutions intead of another 4 years of kicking the same ole dead horse.

I've posted my thought. have you?