New Coal Regulations Will Kill Jobs, Boost Energy Bills

[martybegan]

Ha! I see our far right posters are doing their predictable slamming of anything that might enhance life in their own country because,,,because,, because it's a REGULATION!
Let's look at the US's biggest economic competitor on the world stage is doing.

China Outpaces U.S. in Cleaner Coal-Fired Plants

TIANJIN, China — China’s frenetic construction of coal-fired power plants has raised worries around the world about the effect on climate change. China now uses more coal than the United States, Europe and Japan combined, making it the world’s largest emitter of gases that are warming the planet.
But largely missing in the hand-wringing is this: China has emerged in the past two years as the world’s leading builder of more efficient, less polluting coal power plants, mastering the technology and driving down the cost.
While the United States is still debating whether to build a more efficient kind of coal-fired power plant that uses extremely hot steam, China has begun building such plants at a rate of one a month.
<snip>
Western countries continue to rely heavily on coal-fired power plants built decades ago with outdated, inefficient technology that burn a lot of coal and emit considerable amounts of carbon dioxide. China has begun requiring power companies to retire an older, more polluting power plant for each new one they build.
<snip>
With greater efficiency, a power plant burns less coal and emits less carbon dioxide for each unit of electricity it generates. Experts say the least efficient plants in China today convert 27 to 36 percent of the energy in coal into electricity. The most efficient plants achieve an efficiency as high as 44 percent, meaning they can cut global warming emissions by more than a third compared with the weakest plants.
China Far Outpaces U.S. in Building Cleaner Coal-Fired Plants - NYTimes.com
=================
So while China moves forwards, the "we hate any regulation" crowd want the US to stand pat or in essence, fall behind.

One has to take the Times story with a grain of salt. Remember that China has a lack of environmental groups, lawyers and regulations that make upgrading in the US a nightmare. Also remember that in China the government basically gets what it wants without and hassle from either compaines or the people.

If a US company wanted to grandfather out an old coal plant and replace it with a new one, it would have to do a massive environmental impact statement, then it would have to comply with all of the new regulations, then it would probably have to fight all sorts of groups who would perfer a renewable source of power instead of a new coal plant. So a 5% increase in efficiency would end up costing so much that the required rate increase to cover said cost would never be approved by the regulatoy agency covering the rates they can charge.

Also holding China up as a paragon of environmental compliance is a bit short sighted.

 

[bripat9643]

The EPA is the only thing holding up construction of new coal fired power plants, moron.

Ha! I see our far right posters are doing their predictable slamming of anything that might enhance life in their own country because,,,because,, because it's a REGULATION!
Let's look at the US's biggest economic competitor on the world stage is doing.

China Outpaces U.S. in Cleaner Coal-Fired Plants

TIANJIN, China — China’s frenetic construction of coal-fired power plants has raised worries around the world about the effect on climate change. China now uses more coal than the United States, Europe and Japan combined, making it the world’s largest emitter of gases that are warming the planet.
But largely missing in the hand-wringing is this: China has emerged in the past two years as the world’s leading builder of more efficient, less polluting coal power plants, mastering the technology and driving down the cost.
While the United States is still debating whether to build a more efficient kind of coal-fired power plant that uses extremely hot steam, China has begun building such plants at a rate of one a month.
<snip>
Western countries continue to rely heavily on coal-fired power plants built decades ago with outdated, inefficient technology that burn a lot of coal and emit considerable amounts of carbon dioxide. China has begun requiring power companies to retire an older, more polluting power plant for each new one they build.
<snip>
With greater efficiency, a power plant burns less coal and emits less carbon dioxide for each unit of electricity it generates. Experts say the least efficient plants in China today convert 27 to 36 percent of the energy in coal into electricity. The most efficient plants achieve an efficiency as high as 44 percent, meaning they can cut global warming emissions by more than a third compared with the weakest plants.
China Far Outpaces U.S. in Building Cleaner Coal-Fired Plants - NYTimes.com
=================
So while China moves forwards, the "we hate any regulation" crowd want the US to stand pat or in essence, fall behind.

 

[Bfgrn]

Toxic Air: Time to Clean Up Coal-fired Power Plants _______________________________________________
Did you know that the coal-fired power plants, found across the country, emit health-threatening toxins into our air every day? Toxins like arsenic, mercury, acid gases and lead. The American Lung Association’s new report Toxic Air: The Case for Cleaning Up Coal-fired Power Plants, reveals the hazardous air pollution emitted from power plants and why now is the time to clean them up and protect ou health.

The report highlights the long list of uncontrolled pollutants from these plants including dangerous pollutants such as arsenic, mercury, dioxins, formaldehyde, acid gases and PAHs, just to name a few. The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) is required on March 16 to issue a proposal to finally clean up these hazardous air pollutants. This comes more than twenty years after Congress added requirements to the Clean Air Act—with strong bipartisan support—that these toxic emissions must be stopped.

Hazards revealed

The Lung Association’s report reveals the real public health threat from coal-fired power plants.

>> Coal-fired power plants that sell electricity to the grid produce more hazardous air pollution in the U.S. than any other industrial pollution sources.

>> More than 400 coal-fired power plants located in 46 states across the country release more that 386,000 tons of hazardous air pollutants into the atmosphere each year.

>> Particle pollution from power plants is estimated to kill approximately 13,000 people a year.

“Power plant pollution kills people,” said Charles D. Connor, President and CEO of the American Lung Association. “It threatens the brains and nervous system of children. It can cause cancer, heart attacks and strokes.

“It’s time that we end the ‘toxic loophole’ that has allowed coal-burning power plants to operate without any federal limits on emissions of mercury, arsenic, dioxin, acid gases such as hydrogen chloride and other dangerous pollutants,” said Charles D. Connor, president and CEO of the American Lung Association.

“People living closest to these plants, especially children, seniors, pregnant women and those with chronic disease face the greatest risk, but it doesn’t stop there. Pollution from coal-fired power plants takes flight and travels far into other states—threatening public health.”

Time for EPA to act

The Clean Air Act requires that hazardous air pollutants from coal-fired power plants be controlled. Because EPA is overdue in delivering its proposal for cleaning up these plants, the agency is under a court order to propose these regulations by March 16. Without the new rules, no national standards exist to limit these pollutants from these plants.

The Lung Association report identifies modern pollution control technologies that that are currently in use in some plants, which are readily available for installation at other plants. The law sets the cleanup requirements based on actual performance facilities, but each power plant will select the specific pollution control strategies to reduce their emissions.

“The American public has waited long enough—more than two decades. We are counting on EPA to protect all Americans from the health risks imposed by these dangerous pollutants once and for all.”

More

 

[hboats]

coal mining distruction - Bing Videos

We're really supposed to take a video seriously when they can't even spell the title correctly?

Rick

 

[ba1614]

coal mining distruction - Bing Videos

We're really supposed to take a video seriously when they can't even spell the title correctly?

Rick

But they is collage gradutes!

 

[kiwiman127]

Ha! I see our far right posters are doing their predictable slamming of anything that might enhance life in their own country because,,,because,, because it's a REGULATION!
Let's look at the US's biggest economic competitor on the world stage is doing.

China Outpaces U.S. in Cleaner Coal-Fired Plants

TIANJIN, China — China’s frenetic construction of coal-fired power plants has raised worries around the world about the effect on climate change. China now uses more coal than the United States, Europe and Japan combined, making it the world’s largest emitter of gases that are warming the planet.
But largely missing in the hand-wringing is this: China has emerged in the past two years as the world’s leading builder of more efficient, less polluting coal power plants, mastering the technology and driving down the cost.
While the United States is still debating whether to build a more efficient kind of coal-fired power plant that uses extremely hot steam, China has begun building such plants at a rate of one a month.
<snip>
Western countries continue to rely heavily on coal-fired power plants built decades ago with outdated, inefficient technology that burn a lot of coal and emit considerable amounts of carbon dioxide. China has begun requiring power companies to retire an older, more polluting power plant for each new one they build.
<snip>
With greater efficiency, a power plant burns less coal and emits less carbon dioxide for each unit of electricity it generates. Experts say the least efficient plants in China today convert 27 to 36 percent of the energy in coal into electricity. The most efficient plants achieve an efficiency as high as 44 percent, meaning they can cut global warming emissions by more than a third compared with the weakest plants.
China Far Outpaces U.S. in Building Cleaner Coal-Fired Plants - NYTimes.com
=================
So while China moves forwards, the "we hate any regulation" crowd want the US to stand pat or in essence, fall behind.

One has to take the Times story with a grain of salt. Remember that China has a lack of environmental groups, lawyers and regulations that make upgrading in the US a nightmare. Also remember that in China the government basically gets what it wants without and hassle from either compaines or the people.

If a US company wanted to grandfather out an old coal plant and replace it with a new one, it would have to do a massive environmental impact statement, then it would have to comply with all of the new regulations, then it would probably have to fight all sorts of groups who would perfer a renewable source of power instead of a new coal plant. So a 5% increase in efficiency would end up costing so much that the required rate increase to cover said cost would never be approved by the regulatoy agency covering the rates they can charge.

Also holding China up as a paragon of environmental compliance is a bit short sighted.

Do a Google search using "china clean coal technology", you'll find "About 2,750,000 results". It's a fact.

 

[martybegan]

Ha! I see our far right posters are doing their predictable slamming of anything that might enhance life in their own country because,,,because,, because it's a REGULATION!
Let's look at the US's biggest economic competitor on the world stage is doing.

China Outpaces U.S. in Cleaner Coal-Fired Plants

TIANJIN, China — China’s frenetic construction of coal-fired power plants has raised worries around the world about the effect on climate change. China now uses more coal than the United States, Europe and Japan combined, making it the world’s largest emitter of gases that are warming the planet.
But largely missing in the hand-wringing is this: China has emerged in the past two years as the world’s leading builder of more efficient, less polluting coal power plants, mastering the technology and driving down the cost.
While the United States is still debating whether to build a more efficient kind of coal-fired power plant that uses extremely hot steam, China has begun building such plants at a rate of one a month.
<snip>
Western countries continue to rely heavily on coal-fired power plants built decades ago with outdated, inefficient technology that burn a lot of coal and emit considerable amounts of carbon dioxide. China has begun requiring power companies to retire an older, more polluting power plant for each new one they build.
<snip>
With greater efficiency, a power plant burns less coal and emits less carbon dioxide for each unit of electricity it generates. Experts say the least efficient plants in China today convert 27 to 36 percent of the energy in coal into electricity. The most efficient plants achieve an efficiency as high as 44 percent, meaning they can cut global warming emissions by more than a third compared with the weakest plants.
China Far Outpaces U.S. in Building Cleaner Coal-Fired Plants - NYTimes.com
=================
So while China moves forwards, the "we hate any regulation" crowd want the US to stand pat or in essence, fall behind.

One has to take the Times story with a grain of salt. Remember that China has a lack of environmental groups, lawyers and regulations that make upgrading in the US a nightmare. Also remember that in China the government basically gets what it wants without and hassle from either compaines or the people.

If a US company wanted to grandfather out an old coal plant and replace it with a new one, it would have to do a massive environmental impact statement, then it would have to comply with all of the new regulations, then it would probably have to fight all sorts of groups who would perfer a renewable source of power instead of a new coal plant. So a 5% increase in efficiency would end up costing so much that the required rate increase to cover said cost would never be approved by the regulatoy agency covering the rates they can charge.

Also holding China up as a paragon of environmental compliance is a bit short sighted.

Do a Google search using "china clean coal technology", you'll find "About 2,750,000 results". It's a fact.

I can type in "obama fake birth certificate" and get 4,300,000 results, and type in "cows can fly" and get 14,200,000 results.

Although a flying cow would be cool.

 

[bripat9643]

Do a Google search using "china clean coal technology", you'll find "About 2,750,000 results". It's a fact.

Anyone who thinks a count of Google hits proves something is a certified moron. If I do a Google search on "martians," it returns 4,140,000 results. Does that prove martians are real?

 

[Bfgrn]

Do a Google search using "china clean coal technology", you'll find "About 2,750,000 results". It's a fact.

Anyone who thinks a count of Google hits proves something is a certified moron. If I do a Google search on "martians," it returns 4,140,000 results. Does that prove martians are real?

You know bripat, I have seen many of your posts. I would tell you to chill, but you probably lost the recipe for ice.

 

[kiwiman127]

I'd bet that neither Marty or Bripat even read or more so, went to see what articles were posted and by whom. So they resorted to the ever popular far right technique, demonize the messenger.
Hell, I could copy & paste thousands of articles for them to ponder and demonize (because they are experts, you know).
Bottom-line, per the Chinese authoritarian government, China is converting to clean coal technology, now why would they do that?

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

Ken Lay.
Bernie Maddoff.
Michael Milken.
Scott Sullivan.
Ivan Boesky.
David Myers.
Jeff Skilling.
Dennis Kozlowski.
Mark Swartz.
Frank Walsh.
Richard Fuld.
Neil Bush.

Honest to a fault those guys. Only cost billions..no big whoop.

That's a pretty small list. Now consider anyone who was ever elected to Congress. Everyone one of them is less honest than everyone on your list.

Yeah, they spent way more of my money than those thugs in Congress, right? $4 trillion a year is pocket change!

You have to be positively stupid to trust the government.

You name one politician that pulled out 20 billion dollars from the economy for personal profit.

One.

Barack Obama

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

They are generally about 1000 times more honest than the government. To understand why no one believes the later, just consider the recent example of Anthony Weiner.

Ken Lay.
Bernie Maddoff.
Michael Milken.
Scott Sullivan.
Ivan Boesky.
David Myers.
Jeff Skilling.
Dennis Kozlowski.
Mark Swartz.
Frank Walsh.
Richard Fuld.
Neil Bush.

Honest to a fault those guys. Only cost billions..no big whoop.

That's a pretty small list. Now consider anyone who was ever elected to Congress. Everyone one of them is less honest than everyone on your list.

Yeah, they spent way more of my money than those thugs in Congress, right? $4 trillion a year is pocket change!

You have to be positively stupid to trust the government.

There is corruption in the government and there is corruption in corporate America. In both fields, the players will get away with what ever they can get away with until they're exposed to the public.

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

Well Monica for the elite, you must be projecting, because someone paid me 6 figures to sell Caterpillar construction equipment.

Oh, that was me because it was 100% commission...

That is not true. The lack of intellect you bring to this forum is evidence enough that you couldn't sell a bag of dog shit to a swarm of hungry flies.

 

[martybegan]

I'd bet that neither Marty or Bripat even read or more so, went to see what articles were posted and by whom. So they resorted to the ever popular far right technique, demonize the messenger.
Hell, I could copy & paste thousands of articles for them to ponder and demonize (because they are experts, you know).
Bottom-line, per the Chinese authoritarian government, China is converting to clean coal technology, now why would they do that?

Clean as in more efficent maybe, but are they adding on the post exhaust treatment processes that are required in the west?

I have a Chem.E degree so i know about this type of stuff.

You still used a google search count as a backup to your argument, which is just silly.

Again, if it is just an efficency increase that comes from the plants being new. Also the environmental benefit is a side effect of more efficiency, not the main reason.

Edit:

From the article you listed:

"Only half the country&#8217;s coal-fired power plants have the emissions control equipment to remove sulfur compounds that cause acid rain, and even power plants with that technology do not always use it. China has not begun regulating some of the emissions that lead to heavy smog in big cities.

Even among China&#8217;s newly built plants, not all are modern. Only about 60 percent of the new plants are being built using newer technology that is highly efficient, but more expensive. "

From my read they are using the new tech not out of any green desires, but more for the fact the techs use less coal per KW, and they need as much power as they can get from their availible reserves.

 

[shintao]

Kill people, save jobs...the new GOP slogan.

The jobs saved...morticians

You've never had a legitimate job in your life. No wonder youre a Democrat.

You simple fuck. The only job your ever had was a receptacle for a cock. No wonder you are an Asshole.

Now how you doing on that lie of yours, I have no money? LMAO!!

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

I'd bet that neither Marty or Bripat even read or more so, went to see what articles were posted and by whom. So they resorted to the ever popular far right technique, demonize the messenger.
Hell, I could copy & paste thousands of articles for them to ponder and demonize (because they are experts, you know).
Bottom-line, per the Chinese authoritarian government, China is converting to clean coal technology, now why would they do that?

A buddy of mine just returned from China this past weekend. He was there for ten days. It is a disgustingly polluted country.

 

[WillowTree]

People die of all sorts of things.

So in your mind it's okay to let them die of cold? Really?

That guy died because they stopped paying him his pension.

A-Okay..in the minds of Conservatives.

Like Jan Brewer.

too chicken shit to answer the question?

 

[shintao]

I'd bet that neither Marty or Bripat even read or more so, went to see what articles were posted and by whom. So they resorted to the ever popular far right technique, demonize the messenger.
Hell, I could copy & paste thousands of articles for them to ponder and demonize (because they are experts, you know).
Bottom-line, per the Chinese authoritarian government, China is converting to clean coal technology, now why would they do that?

Clean as in more efficent maybe, but are they adding on the post exhaust treatment processes that are required in the west?

I have a Chem.E degree so i know about this type of stuff.

You still used a google search count as a backup to your argument, which is just silly.

Again, if it is just an efficency increase that comes from the plants being new. Also the environmental benefit is a side effect of more efficiency, not the main reason.

Edit:

From the article you listed:

"Only half the country’s coal-fired power plants have the emissions control equipment to remove sulfur compounds that cause acid rain, and even power plants with that technology do not always use it. China has not begun regulating some of the emissions that lead to heavy smog in big cities.

Even among China’s newly built plants, not all are modern. Only about 60 percent of the new plants are being built using newer technology that is highly efficient, but more expensive. "

From my read they are using the new tech not out of any green desires, but more for the fact the techs use less coal per KW, and they need as much power as they can get from their availible reserves.

So why would a new plant produce less emissions than an old plant?

Why would we use a coal plant to kill people, over other forms of energy sources that don't?

 

[asaratis]

...some of you are not yet aware of Obama's goal to ruin the economy of the United States and bring it into a more fair position of "average" among the nations of the world. He doesn't give a tinker's damn about the health of American citizens. His main goals are to create government jobs, cause the cost of living to rise, diminish the quality of life and for all lazy, unemployed, mooching welfare whores to continue to vote him and his ilk into power so more of the wealth can be re-distributed...to his supporters. He is an enemy of the capitalism and free enterprise that have made this country great.

One term may be all he needs. God forbid he should be given a second chance!

 

[shintao]

I'd bet that neither Marty or Bripat even read or more so, went to see what articles were posted and by whom. So they resorted to the ever popular far right technique, demonize the messenger.
Hell, I could copy & paste thousands of articles for them to ponder and demonize (because they are experts, you know).
Bottom-line, per the Chinese authoritarian government, China is converting to clean coal technology, now why would they do that?

A buddy of mine just returned from China this past weekend. He was there for ten days. It is a disgustingly polluted country.

Funny, they don't list China. ((ASK)

What country in the world produces the most pollution
CO2 Emissions (per capita) (most recent) by country
#1 Qatar: 40.6735 per 1,000 people
#2 United Arab Emirates: 28.213 per 1,000 people
#3 Kuwait: 25.0499 per 1,000 people
#4 Bahrain: 20.0253 per 1,000 people
#5 United States: 19.4839 per 1,000 people
Waste generation (most recent) by country
#1 Denmark: 560 kgs per person per year
#2 Netherlands: 530 kgs per person per year
#3 United Kingdom: 480 kgs per person per year
#4 United States: 460 kgs per person per year
#5 Belgium: 450 kgs per person per year

Pollution > Carbon dioxide 1999 (most recent) by country
#1 United States: 1,499,850
#2 Russia: 392,287
#3 Japan: 315,274
#4 India: 293,938
#5 Germany: 216,213

Pollution > Nuclear waste (most recent) by country
#1 United States: 2,100
#2 Canada: 1,340
#3 France: 1,130
#4 Japan: 964
#5 United Kingdom:

And here the countries that work on being green the most..

Environmental agreement compliance (most recent) by country

Rank Countries Amount (top to bottom)
#1 Finland: 6.72
#2 Denmark: 6.67
#3 Sweden: 6.54
#4 Austria: 6.33
#5 Germany: 6.27

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