Neville Chamberlain- unfairly condemned?

[JakeStarkey]

JoeB is fun to read, but if he tried this at university or college history class, the professor would pat him on the head and kick his ass out the door. Too funny.

 

[theliq]

Joe..Trouble was Hitler wanted to GO to WAR,he saw Chamberlain as weak,but he could have not appeased Hitler,Hitler was a better Poker Player and A NAZI ,intent on WAR.


Either way,that history is done and dusted.After 23million had been slaughtered on all sides.

steven

We all got this lesson in history class. Neville Chamberlain went to Munich, and cravenly sold out Czechoslovakia to Hitler. In hindsight, since war inevitably came anyway, it seems that his actions were cowardly.

However, I offer a different view. Chamberlain played the hand he was dealt, and made the only calls he could.

First, it was impossible for the United Kingdom and France to do much of anything to help Prague in case of a war. After the union of Austria and Germany, the western half of the country was surrounded on three sides. France had invested most of its infrastructure into fixed defenses like the ones that got it through World War I, and not tanks and planes. Hungary and Italy's alliances with Germany made it impossible to help Czechoslovakia from the South.

Second, Czechoslovakia itself was a polite fiction. The country was made up of 6 million Czechs, 3 million Germans in the Sudetenland, who really wanted to be part of Germany, and 1.5 million Slovaks who would have preferred independence. There were also large amounts of Hungarians who wanted to be part of Hungary again.

Finally, the united Kingdom wasn't ready for a war. Not yet. They were in the midst of a rearmorment program and the political classes hadn't accepted another war might be needed.

So really, all Neville could do at Munich was keep the peace... because war was an impossible situation.

 

[JoeB131]

JoeB is fun to read, but if he tried this at university or college history class, the professor would pat him on the head and kick his ass out the door. Too funny.

Actually, I have a bachelor's degree in history. University of Illinois at Chicago, 1985.

The leftist view on most universities is that Chamberlain intentionally sold the Czechs out because he wanted Hitler to go after Stalin... which is almost as loopy as anything you've come up with.

 

[editec]

We all got this lesson in history class. Neville Chamberlain went to Munich, and cravenly sold out Czechoslovakia to Hitler. In hindsight, since war inevitably came anyway, it seems that his actions were cowardly.

However, I offer a different view. Chamberlain played the hand he was dealt, and made the only calls he could.

First, it was impossible for the United Kingdom and France to do much of anything to help Prague in case of a war. After the union of Austria and Germany, the western half of the country was surrounded on three sides. France had invested most of its infrastructure into fixed defenses like the ones that got it through World War I, and not tanks and planes. Hungary and Italy's alliances with Germany made it impossible to help Czechoslovakia from the South.

Second, Czechoslovakia itself was a polite fiction. The country was made up of 6 million Czechs, 3 million Germans in the Sudetenland, who really wanted to be part of Germany, and 1.5 million Slovaks who would have preferred independence. There were also large amounts of Hungarians who wanted to be part of Hungary again.

Finally, the united Kingdom wasn't ready for a war. Not yet. They were in the midst of a rearmorment program and the political classes hadn't accepted another war might be needed.

So really, all Neville could do at Munich was keep the peace... because war was an impossible situation.

England and France reluctantly betrayed Czechoslovokia.

Neither of them was ready to go to war.

Czechoslokia was ready to go to war, but not alone.

Had England and France lived up to their treaty with CZ, it is likely that the Blitzkrig would have flattened Prague, but unlikely that the German forces would have overwhelmed CZ.

Damned shame England and France didn't shut down Hitler back when he started rearming.

WWII would not have happened.

Hitler would have been booted from power by the German people.

 

[elvis]

We all got this lesson in history class. Neville Chamberlain went to Munich, and cravenly sold out Czechoslovakia to Hitler. In hindsight, since war inevitably came anyway, it seems that his actions were cowardly.

However, I offer a different view. Chamberlain played the hand he was dealt, and made the only calls he could.

First, it was impossible for the United Kingdom and France to do much of anything to help Prague in case of a war. After the union of Austria and Germany, the western half of the country was surrounded on three sides. France had invested most of its infrastructure into fixed defenses like the ones that got it through World War I, and not tanks and planes. Hungary and Italy's alliances with Germany made it impossible to help Czechoslovakia from the South.

Second, Czechoslovakia itself was a polite fiction. The country was made up of 6 million Czechs, 3 million Germans in the Sudetenland, who really wanted to be part of Germany, and 1.5 million Slovaks who would have preferred independence. There were also large amounts of Hungarians who wanted to be part of Hungary again.

Finally, the united Kingdom wasn't ready for a war. Not yet. They were in the midst of a rearmorment program and the political classes hadn't accepted another war might be needed.

So really, all Neville could do at Munich was keep the peace... because war was an impossible situation.

England and France reluctantly betrayed Czechoslovokia.

Neither of them was ready to go to war.

Czechoslokia was ready to go to war, but not alone.

Had England and France lived up to their treaty with CZ, it is likely that the Blitzkrig would have flattened Prague, but unlikely that the German forces would have overwhelmed CZ.

Damned shame England and France didn't shut down Hitler back when he started rearming.

WWII would not have happened.

Hitler would have been booted from power by the German people.

It's true. If France had challenged the Nazis when they entered the Rheinland, they would have had to retreat.

 

[JoeB131]

We all got this lesson in history class. Neville Chamberlain went to Munich, and cravenly sold out Czechoslovakia to Hitler. In hindsight, since war inevitably came anyway, it seems that his actions were cowardly.

However, I offer a different view. Chamberlain played the hand he was dealt, and made the only calls he could.

First, it was impossible for the United Kingdom and France to do much of anything to help Prague in case of a war. After the union of Austria and Germany, the western half of the country was surrounded on three sides. France had invested most of its infrastructure into fixed defenses like the ones that got it through World War I, and not tanks and planes. Hungary and Italy's alliances with Germany made it impossible to help Czechoslovakia from the South.

Second, Czechoslovakia itself was a polite fiction. The country was made up of 6 million Czechs, 3 million Germans in the Sudetenland, who really wanted to be part of Germany, and 1.5 million Slovaks who would have preferred independence. There were also large amounts of Hungarians who wanted to be part of Hungary again.

Finally, the united Kingdom wasn't ready for a war. Not yet. They were in the midst of a rearmorment program and the political classes hadn't accepted another war might be needed.

So really, all Neville could do at Munich was keep the peace... because war was an impossible situation.

England and France reluctantly betrayed Czechoslovokia.

Neither of them was ready to go to war.

Czechoslokia was ready to go to war, but not alone.

Had England and France lived up to their treaty with CZ, it is likely that the Blitzkrig would have flattened Prague, but unlikely that the German forces would have overwhelmed CZ.

Damned shame England and France didn't shut down Hitler back when he started rearming.

WWII would not have happened.

Hitler would have been booted from power by the German people.

It's true. If France had challenged the Nazis when they entered the Rheinland, they would have had to retreat.

What everyone forgets is that it wouldn't have been CZ and England and France against Germany. Germany would have been aided by Hungary, possibly aided by Italy.

Not to mention- and everyone avoids this- is that the Slovaks were on Germany's side. They wanted independence from the Czechs, and Hitler gave it to them under Father Tiso, the leader of the Slovak nationalists.

You see, when the allies carved up the Hapsburg Empire, they created these artificial countries, Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia, in order to hem Germany in. It didn't work, they were artificial constructs that didn't last. And when Communism fell, they broke apart completely.

 

[JakeStarkey]

JoeB is fun to read, but if he tried this at university or college history class, the professor would pat him on the head and kick his ass out the door. Too funny.

Actually, I have a bachelor's degree in history. University of Illinois at Chicago, 1985.

The leftist view on most universities is that Chamberlain intentionally sold the Czechs out because he wanted Hitler to go after Stalin... which is almost as loopy as anything you've come up with.

The correct view is that Chamberlain was horrified at the possible of a major European war.

JoeB thinks all who disagree with him embraces "leftist" ideology. He can't define what it is other than his version of "I don't like it."

Childish. However, if you did get your BA in history, then you know the game. If you played there the way you do here, you would not have got through your first year in college.

 

[JoeB131]

JoeB is fun to read, but if he tried this at university or college history class, the professor would pat him on the head and kick his ass out the door. Too funny.

Actually, I have a bachelor's degree in history. University of Illinois at Chicago, 1985.

The leftist view on most universities is that Chamberlain intentionally sold the Czechs out because he wanted Hitler to go after Stalin... which is almost as loopy as anything you've come up with.

The correct view is that Chamberlain was horrified at the possible of a major European war.

JoeB thinks all who disagree with him embraces "leftist" ideology. He can't define what it is other than his version of "I don't like it."

Childish. However, if you did get your BA in history, then you know the game. If you played there the way you do here, you would not have got through your first year in college.

Actually, what I found is that a lot of these professors didn't know what they were talking about.

I actually had one respected PolSci professor who made all sorts of incorrect statements, like attributing the phrase "Bread and Circuses" to Adolf Hitler (It actually comes from the Roman Empire.) Another time this same fellow used to say American propaganda was bad because it accused the Japanese of Sneak Attacks. I pointed out that is exactly what Japan did in nearly every war it started.

But like I said, guy, you want to keep talking about me because you can't really defend your positions. You'd tank the GOP's chance of winning by supporting the Android from Kolob just to show people you don't like something.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Thanks, JoeB. You are one of those people, then, who finds the world is out of step with your correct tred. You are the type who finds opposition not only wrong but as evil.

I talk about you because your positions have no merit and have been exploded long ago.

 

[JoeB131]

Thanks, JoeB. You are one of those people, then, who finds the world is out of step with your correct tred. You are the type who finds opposition not only wrong but as evil.

I talk about you because your positions have no merit and have been exploded long ago.

Where did I say anyone was evil other than Mitt Romney.

I don't even think Obama is evil.

 

[editec]

I doubt many Slovaks wanted to become a protectorate of Germany.

I do NOT doubt that many of the Germans living in the SudentenLand wanted to join Germany.

Elvis is right, here, I think.

If France had defended the RhineLand they'd have crushed the Germans. Germany didn't really have a very powerful army back then.

But the WWI generation leading France and England at the time, were all suffering a collective Post Truamaic Stress Syndrome thanks to the horrow of WWI.

They didn't want to go though another European suisidal war.

Sadly, Germany didn't have much to lose and everything to gain by going back to war.

I blame WWII on the English and the French.

First because so screwed the German people in the Treaty of Versailles in 1918, secondly because they failed to stop Hitler when they could have EASILY.

This is one of those historical debates that is never going to die.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Thanks, JoeB. You are one of those people, then, who finds the world is out of step with your correct tred. You are the type who finds opposition not only wrong but as evil.

I talk about you because your positions have no merit and have been exploded long ago.

Where did I say anyone was evil other than Mitt Romney.

I don't even think Obama is evil.

The totality of your tone in your posts give you away.

JoeB, you are in error about Romney. Time will prove it. When he is nominated, get on board and row, or jump overboard because the party is not going to permit any dissent after the nomination without serious consequence.

 

[elvis]

Thanks, JoeB. You are one of those people, then, who finds the world is out of step with your correct tred. You are the type who finds opposition not only wrong but as evil.

I talk about you because your positions have no merit and have been exploded long ago.

Where did I say anyone was evil other than Mitt Romney.

I don't even think Obama is evil.

The totality of your tone in your posts give you away.

JoeB, you are in error about Romney. Time will prove it. When he is nominated, get on board and row, or jump overboard because the party is not going to permit any dissent after the nomination without serious consequence.

He won't support Romney. My guess is he'll vote third party.

 

[JakeStarkey]

That is certainly JoeB's right.

Reagan was correct about not talking evil about other GOP candidates. Somewhere the last fifteen years, that great advice went out the window.

Regan would not even understand the Hard Right other than saying "What a bunch of weirdos." He perhaps would say, "I was warned that associating with weirdos leads to weirdness being splashed on you."

 

[barry1960]

I strongly disagree with this position. I will say that in his incompetence and inability to read Hitler and the political situation Chamberlain was not alone. The French premier Daladier also went along with the Munich agreement even the French, not the British had a treaty with the Czechs. Chamberlain received thunderous aplause in London following the Munich agreement. When Churchill warned on the disasterous consequences of this agreement, he was shouted down.

Exactly. The British people didn't want another war. They were still looking at the maimed people from the last one that actually weakened the Empire.

The biggest fear of war at the time came from an exagerated fear of airpower. There were fears that germany could have lattened Paris and London through bombing when they could not have done so. certainly the British people did not want a war, but Chamberlain should have risen above popular opinion to do the right thing. Bedides without Munich, Hitler would have raged aggressive war on 10/1/38 and the democracies of Europe would have lined up against it.

At the time of the Munich agreement the Czeches could field 35 well trained Divisions behind formidable fortifications in the Sudenland. It is doubtful the Germans could have breached those defensives, their generasl and Hitler said as much when they inspected them after they marched unopposed into the Sudenland.

But there was a big problem with those fortifications. They were build in GERMAN areas. The Sudetenland was ethnically German, and these Germans wanted nothing to do with the Czechs, whom they considered their inferiors. Under the old Hapsburg Regime, they were dominant, but now they were the minority, and they didn't like it much.

The Sudenland was NEVER part of Germany. The Sudenland German were treated well. There was Nazi agitation in the Sudenland directed by Berlin. The fortifications would have been a formidable obstacle, as Hitler admitted when he reviewed them.

The problem with fixed defenses is that you don't need to overcome all of them, just find a few holes.

That is not how Germany initially overcame the Maginot line. Rather than "finding a few holes", they chose to outflank it.I

think you are thinking of the Seigfried Line, which was a little further along. More to the point, these 100 divisions were primarily infantry. They lacked armor and mobile support. Most of the artilery support was fixed in the Maginot line. The French military wasn't thinking in terms of mobile military power. They were still in Trench Warfare thinking, of men fighting for months over mere feet of land.

While the French thinking was not in terms of armored Divisions they actually possessed a greater number and superior quality tanks than Germany. These tanks were interspersed in each division. The German tanks would have been attacking Czechoslovakia, and none would have been available against france. So we have 100 divisions with tanks against 5 divisions with no tanks. Even timid General Gamelin was confident of victory. The German generals themselves were certainly not as confident as you are.

The Siegfried line was built between 1938-40 and was incomplete at the time of Munich. Jodl referred to it as a construction site in October 1938.

And did you ever wonder why the Soviets weren't invited to Munich? This is another part of the calculus. You see, the world was actually more afraid of Stalin than Hitler in 1938, and rightfully so. They look at how the ruling classes were just slaughtered in Russia, how Moscow was funding every communist party in the world, and the last thing they wanted was them a lot further west. (Which is what ended up happening, anyway.)

Absolutely no one was saying "Oh, gee, Stalin will save us!" Not even the Czechs. They were willing to take their chances with Hitler.

There was mistrust of the Soviet Union based on the fear of communism, not Stalin's butchery. Chamberlain was extremely distrustful of the Soviet Union and allowed that distrust to affect his judgment.As it turned out, there much greater immediate danger from Germany than the Soviet Union. If the west was so distrustful of Stalin, why did france have a treaty with the Soviet Union in 1938 to come to the mutual defense of Czechoslovakia.

Beck and his little cabal spent years plotting against Hitler. And plotting. And plotting. And when they finally took their swing at bat in 1944, it failed comically, despite Tom Cruise's attempts to make it look otherwise. Besides that, Chamberlain had no way of really knowing how much resentment there was in the military against Hitler.

The Polish leaders were politically incompetent which makes one wonder why Chamberlain gave them a unilateral guarantee of defense, thus guaranteeing WWII in 9/39. Poland was not plotting against Germany and if you think 1944 is any evidence, it ignores what happened to Poland between 1939 and 1944.Chamberlain was well aware of the general's plot. That is historical fact.

Or Chamberlain might have been voted out. Because to your average Brit, looking at their Uncle Nigel without his legs and screaming nightmares from the last war, were not anxious to send their kids off for a new one over Czechoslovakia, remembering that the last war started because some Archduke got shot by a Serbian.

Munich worsened the position of France and Britain greatly. It also led Stalin towards Germany since France refused to include the Soviets in Munich and did not honor their treaty with the Czechs. After Hitler violated Munich Chamberlain overcompensated by giving a guarantee to Poland that resulted in war with Germany. Poland could not be helped in 1939 as the Czechs could in 1938. In the meantime Germany greatly improved their Panzer forces (30% of the tanks broke down within 30 miles on the unopposed trip into the Sudenland) and built the West Wall to deter the timid French.

The Poles were probably in a better position than the Czechs were. The thing was, after Munich, Czechoslovakia was still a weak country that half the population wanted nothing to do with. The Slovaks couldn't wait to get away from the Czechs. Neither could the Hungarians.

The Poles were in a much worse position militarily in 1939 than the Czechs were in 1938. The Slovaks were unhappy, but they broke away after Munich at tyhe instigation of Berlin. Benes wanted a plebicite to determine if the Czechs favored the Sudenland breaking off. Knowing the the vote would have been against it, Hitler forced Benes to call off the vote under threat of Military invasion.

Chamberlain goes down as a well meaning man and one of the worst diplomats of the 20th century and deservedly so.

Again, he made the best decision he could in an impossible situation. Little did he realize he was arguing with the go-to argument in every losing internet batttle.

The situation was not impossible. Chamberlain folded like a cheap suit when Hitler was holding a pair of Deuces. The decision was poor as history demonstrated.

You have a strong opinion of history, but it is not supported by fact. i could quote the military and political figures from both sides of the WWII, but I am not going to spend the time. Your position sounds a lot like Adolph's at the time.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Very weak?

 

[editec]

The biggest fear of war at the time came from an exagerated fear of airpower

True DAT.

England did not feel (and they wre right, I guess) that they had the air defences. They were still working on the spitfire and I don't think they had it in production, yet.

But there was a big problem with those fortifications. They were build in GERMAN areas. The Sudetenland was ethnically German, and these Germans wanted nothing to do with the Czechs, whom they considered their inferiors. Under the old Hapsburg Regime, they were dominant, but now they were the minority, and they didn't like it much.

That's true enough about the SudentenLand but those defences were formitable and manned by people LOYAL to the Czechoslovak nation.

Germany probably didn't at that time have enough power to take on those forifications. It would have bogged them down and perhaps, France and England cou;d have mobilized in time to mount a second front.

But Germany could have destroyed Prague, anyway. I'm informed that even though CZ was developing a modern air force, they could not have protected Praha from the kind of asswhipping that Warsaw later recieved.

FWIW, two of my distant surnamed relatives stole a CZ military fighter and made it to England where they both fought with the RAF in the battle of Britian.

Had it not been for the Poles flying with the RAF (also people who got out as their nation was falling) and to a lesser extent the Czechs, who flew for the RAF or served on their ground crews, it is highly unlikely that the Britian would have won the battle for airspace over the Channel.

And had THAT happened, Germany would have invaded and probably beaten the English on the ground.

Never before have so many owed so much to do few.​

Winston Churchill​

 

[JoeB131]

The totality of your tone in your posts give you away.

JoeB, you are in error about Romney. Time will prove it. When he is nominated, get on board and row, or jump overboard because the party is not going to permit any dissent after the nomination without serious consequence.

Ooooh, Consequences. Really, Bizarro World?

Romney is scum and he'll lose. And he'll go down with Dole and McCain as people that the GOP just kind of looks embarrassed about.

 

[JoeB131]

[

But there was a big problem with those fortifications. They were build in GERMAN areas. The Sudetenland was ethnically German, and these Germans wanted nothing to do with the Czechs, whom they considered their inferiors. Under the old Hapsburg Regime, they were dominant, but now they were the minority, and they didn't like it much.

That's true enough about the SudentenLand but those defences were formitable and manned by people LOYAL to the Czechoslovak nation.

Germany probably didn't at that time have enough power to take on those forifications. It would have bogged them down and perhaps, France and England cou;d have mobilized in time to mount a second front.

But Germany could have destroyed Prague, anyway. I'm informed that even though CZ was developing a modern air force, they could not have protected Praha from the kind of asswhipping that Warsaw later recieved.

.]

The problem with fixed fortifications are (Patton called them monuments to human stupidity) is that you don't have to defeat the whole line. All you have to do is find a weak point. And Sudeten Germans probably already told the Abwehr (German Military Intelligence) where all the weak points were.

Fixed fortifications like the Sudenten defense or the Maginot Line were designed at a time when people hadn't gotten their heads out of WWI yet. Fixed lines battling long wars of attitrion for months. Armor and Air power made that impractical, as it made battle lines a lot more fluid.

For instance, the SUdenten line was not particularly strong on the Southern border. No reason to. Austria was weak and not really hostile until Germany annexed it in 1937.

 

[hipeter924]

He was naive and Hitler's useful idiot, but he was still a bastard considering he sold out the Czechs and the rest of Europe.