Netanyahu promises to topple Hamas regime in Gaza if elected

[Andrew2382]

here's the difference...

we aren't selling Israeli Technology to those countries...we are selling AMERICAN tech to them...we can do whatever the hell we want with our own tech. Also, our existence doesn't rely sowly on Israel and we don't get billions of dollars in aid from them for support.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Why does anyone never want to talk about the fact that Isreal sold American Technology to the Chinese. I back Isreal, yet my support for them diminished a great deal when they did this, to the point where I try to avoid discussion about them because I wish for them to exist but they really piss me the fuck off and I could care less about them.

Ok, I'll bite. Exactly what US technology do you believe Israel sold to the Chinese?

there is nothing to bite, its fact.


ISRAEL SELLS ARMS TO CHINA, U.S. SAYS - New York Times

All the way back to 1993



To Recent
http://www.inthenationalinterest.com/Articles/July 2005/July2005Stakelbeck.html

Israel is a strong U.S. ally in the war against terror, a long-time friend, and a confidant on issues pertaining to Middle East peace and security. That unique relationship however, has been recently challenged by Israel's attempted to sell sophisticated unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) or Harpy Killer drones to China. This has led some analysts to speculate that the depth and strength of the Israel-US bilateral relationship is now in question -- with a reformulation almost inevitable



Asia Times - Asia's most trusted news source for the Middle East

For years, the US government has expressed concerns over Israel illegally transferring technology to China. During the Gulf War, the US gave Israel Patriot missiles as protection against Iraqi Scud missiles. In 1992, a US intelligence report revealed that soon after the end of the Gulf War, Israel had sold Patriot anti-missile data to China. Israel denied the intelligence report.

Washington has also alleged on several occasions that Israel violated agreements by exporting restricted US technology it buys with yearly US subsidies. This was the case with the largely US-funded Lavi fighter-plane program. Israel, the Americans believe, passed on technology to Beijing. China's F-10 fighter jet is believed to be almost identical to the Lavi.

First of all, Israel is the world's fourth largest exporter of weapons after the US, Russia and France and produces many very sophisticated systems independent of US technology. It's clear from the articles that the issue is not that Israel sells US technology, but that it sells sophisticated military technology without first consulting our State Department. The argument that some US technology may be in some unspecified way be in the mix seems more a basis for complaining that Israel is selling to China than that the US technology is part of the sale.

The example is the Phalcon system that was developed independent of the US AWACS system and operates in an entirely different way. At the time of the sale, the Phalcon was considered superior to our AWACS system, although later versions of the AWACS are now considered superior to the Phalcon, and the US strongly opposed the sale of Phalcon to any state because if it was a state the US or an ally might have to fight, it was too important a weapons system and if was a state the US had no objections to having such a system, we wanted them to buy the AWACS system both to keep our defense industry fully functioning and to give us leverage over the purchaser.

This is just a small disagreement among allies and for the present, it is all settled. All foreign sales of the f 22 are now banned by Congress, Israel, Australia and Japan are at the top of the list when the ban is lifted and f 35's have already been promised to Israel for delivery in 2013. Much ado about very, very little.

 

[Andrew2382]

dude, they sold china patriot missle tech in the early 90's

They were going to sell them unmanned drones which were developed by the United States and then backed out of the deal because of pressure from us

and the China j-10 fighter when it was being produced was almost an exact replica of the f-16

 

[Agnapostate]

On the other hand, we give weapons technology to Saudi Arabia and gave money to the PA with the knowledge that it's used militarily.

Is that a reference to the AWACS shipment? That simply cannot form an equivalent to the unregulated, unconditional diplomatic, financial and military aid granted to Israel, often at the expense of American interests. Nor can the meager sum that is tossed to the PA compare to the $3 billion (at least) that is forked over annually to Israel, even when they construct settlements in the Occupied Territories, even when they remain in possession of the Golan Heights, and even when they flout countless UN resolutions.

And thanks for the negrep, GHooker. That's cute. Especially considering that you never replied to this.

 

[toomuchtime_]

When the US plane went down in China in 2000 right after bush took office..remember that incident, when the Chinese fighter hit the plane.

US Photos from the plane showed that the Chinese fighter was equipped with replicas of American Sidewinder missles that is believed to have been sold to them by the Israeli's.

Now you're just getting gossipy. Israel has independently developed and sells all the kinds of missiles it buys from US, with the exception of certain smart bombs and bunker busters. It only buys them from the US because we give them credits to buy them from US factories, and we give them credits to buy these things because just like Israel our defense needs are not great enough to keep our defense industries running at a level we might need in case of an emergency.

 

[Andrew2382]

it will also be a very long time b4 anyone gets their hands on the raptor..and Israel was just recently approved (last Jan of 08) for the F-35 program.

They are able to buy 25 and with US permission can buy more and it was sold to them because Saudi Arabia is buying the Typhoon fighter

 

[toomuchtime_]

I know...I stated the initial article was back in 1994 you can see that. Just because it was in 1994 does that mean it was cool to do?

The other 2 articles go back to the mid 2000's.

Regardless also, they sold patriot missle tech to the chinese in 1994...thats all it takes...the chinese can then do their own upgrades based off the foundation of the tech.

its a big deal

Nope, some one accused Israel of selling the Patriot missile data, not technology, to China, but apparently this accusation was never taken seriously by the US.

 

[Andrew2382]

When the US plane went down in China in 2000 right after bush took office..remember that incident, when the Chinese fighter hit the plane.

US Photos from the plane showed that the Chinese fighter was equipped with replicas of American Sidewinder missles that is believed to have been sold to them by the Israeli's.

Now you're just getting gossipy. Israel has independently developed and sells all the kinds of missiles it buys from US, with the exception of certain smart bombs and bunker busters. It only buys them from the US because we give them credits to buy them from US factories, and we give them credits to buy these things because just like Israel our defense needs are not great enough to keep our defense industries running at a level we might need in case of an emergency.

Any weaponry that Israel buys from the US is not suppose to be sold to other countries without our permission.

This includes variations and upgrades to American designs. Yes, Israel sells a lot of military equipment, however it is suppose to disclose all of it to the United States if its based off American Technology, which they weren't doing.

 

[Andrew2382]

I know...I stated the initial article was back in 1994 you can see that. Just because it was in 1994 does that mean it was cool to do?

The other 2 articles go back to the mid 2000's.

Regardless also, they sold patriot missle tech to the chinese in 1994...thats all it takes...the chinese can then do their own upgrades based off the foundation of the tech.

its a big deal

Nope, some one accused Israel of selling the Patriot missile data, not technology, to China, but apparently this accusation was never taken seriously by the US.

That someone would be the pentagon
ummm what do you think data is?

Wasn't taken seriously? It was in pentagon reports and the US reprimanded Israel for it.

 

[toomuchtime_]

dude, they sold china patriot missle tech in the early 90's

They were going to sell them unmanned drones which were developed by the United States and then backed out of the deal because of pressure from us

and the China j-10 fighter when it was being produced was almost an exact replica of the f-16

Wrong on all counts. They were accused of selling Patriot missile data, not technology - in other words, how effective was it not how does it work. The drones contained some US technology but were not developed by the US and the US technology they did contain was not restricted; the US objected to the improvements Israel had added to the drones. The Chinese f 10 is thought to be based on the Israeli developed lavi fighter bomber, not the US f 16, which was largely financed by the US but which was never produced in part because the US had second thoughts about competing with it world wide and pressured Israel to drop it.

 

[toomuchtime_]

When the US plane went down in China in 2000 right after bush took office..remember that incident, when the Chinese fighter hit the plane.

US Photos from the plane showed that the Chinese fighter was equipped with replicas of American Sidewinder missles that is believed to have been sold to them by the Israeli's.

Now you're just getting gossipy. Israel has independently developed and sells all the kinds of missiles it buys from US, with the exception of certain smart bombs and bunker busters. It only buys them from the US because we give them credits to buy them from US factories, and we give them credits to buy these things because just like Israel our defense needs are not great enough to keep our defense industries running at a level we might need in case of an emergency.

Any weaponry that Israel buys from the US is not suppose to be sold to other countries without our permission.

This includes variations and upgrades to American designs. Yes, Israel sells a lot of military equipment, however it is suppose to disclose all of it to the United States if its based off American Technology, which they weren't doing.

No, only certain technologies are protected, and Israel has not be accused of selling those protected technologies. In the case of the UAV's, the US did not object to the sale of the original UAV because the technology was by then available from lots of sources; it objected to the improvements Israel added to the original UAV because, although Israeli developed, it greatly improved the effective of the older model. The fact that the original design contained some US technology was just an excuse for preventing the sale of the Israeli improvements to China.

The US concern is not that Israel has sold vital US military technology to other countries, but that Israel has sold its own very sophisticated technology to countries we don't want to have it and that Israeli companies are sometimes taking business away from US companies. This last is more than just a business matter. We need our defense factories operating at war time levels even in peace time so that we will have emergency capacity always available. That's why losing business to Israel is a national security concern on this basis also. Israel's defense factories are also critical to its national security needs, so naturally there are going to be conflicts of interests between even the closest of allies.

 

[Andrew2382]

dude, they sold china patriot missle tech in the early 90's

They were going to sell them unmanned drones which were developed by the United States and then backed out of the deal because of pressure from us

and the China j-10 fighter when it was being produced was almost an exact replica of the f-16

Wrong on all counts. They were accused of selling Patriot missile data, not technology - in other words, how effective was it not how does it work. The drones contained some US technology but were not developed by the US and the US technology they did contain was not restricted; the US objected to the improvements Israel had added to the drones. The Chinese f 10 is thought to be based on the Israeli developed lavi fighter bomber, not the US f 16, which was largely financed by the US but which was never produced in part because the US had second thoughts about competing with it world wide and pressured Israel to drop it.

sigh

The lavi fighter was manufactured by the Israeli's however it was funded by the US government and the Lavi was based off the F-16 design. After it was dropped the lavi plans were sold to China which also included American secret tech in it based from the F-16.

If Israel Sold Patriot Secrets . . . - New York Times

Israel, of course, has the know-how to produce advanced weapons on its own. It sells many of them to China and other nations to offset the costs of defending itself. But installing U.S. components in such exports would violate its obligations. So would reverse engineering -- taking a U.S. weapon apart to discover its design secrets and then making a copy for sale to others.

Take the Israeli-built Python-3 air-to-air missile. To some U.S. officials it looks suspiciously like a knock-off of an American design, the heat-seeking AIM-9L Sidewinder. Others are persuaded that the Israelis designed it themselves.

Israel sold the Python-3 to China. China in turn designed its own version, called the PL-8, and sold some to Iraq. The Israeli version uses American parts, which it buys with U.S. military aid. But Israel contends it replaced those parts in the version exported to China -- a claim accepted by some U.S. officials. The same U.S. officials don't think that's the case with Patriot technology.

Even when Israel has clearly violated U.S. export controls, American officials have declined to crack down. In a notorious case last fall, an Israeli-owned company exported American ballistic missile components to a South African company and used them in its own Jericho-2 missile.

 

[toomuchtime_]

dude, they sold china patriot missle tech in the early 90's

They were going to sell them unmanned drones which were developed by the United States and then backed out of the deal because of pressure from us

and the China j-10 fighter when it was being produced was almost an exact replica of the f-16

Wrong on all counts. They were accused of selling Patriot missile data, not technology - in other words, how effective was it not how does it work. The drones contained some US technology but were not developed by the US and the US technology they did contain was not restricted; the US objected to the improvements Israel had added to the drones. The Chinese f 10 is thought to be based on the Israeli developed lavi fighter bomber, not the US f 16, which was largely financed by the US but which was never produced in part because the US had second thoughts about competing with it world wide and pressured Israel to drop it.

sigh

The lavi fighter was manufactured by the Israeli's however it was funded by the US government and the Lavi was based off the F-16 design. After it was dropped the lavi plans were sold to China which also included American secret tech in it based from the F-16.

If Israel Sold Patriot Secrets . . . - New York Times

Israel, of course, has the know-how to produce advanced weapons on its own. It sells many of them to China and other nations to offset the costs of defending itself. But installing U.S. components in such exports would violate its obligations. So would reverse engineering -- taking a U.S. weapon apart to discover its design secrets and then making a copy for sale to others.

Take the Israeli-built Python-3 air-to-air missile. To some U.S. officials it looks suspiciously like a knock-off of an American design, the heat-seeking AIM-9L Sidewinder. Others are persuaded that the Israelis designed it themselves.

Israel sold the Python-3 to China. China in turn designed its own version, called the PL-8, and sold some to Iraq. The Israeli version uses American parts, which it buys with U.S. military aid. But Israel contends it replaced those parts in the version exported to China -- a claim accepted by some U.S. officials. The same U.S. officials don't think that's the case with Patriot technology.

Even when Israel has clearly violated U.S. export controls, American officials have declined to crack down. In a notorious case last fall, an Israeli-owned company exported American ballistic missile components to a South African company and used them in its own Jericho-2 missile.

Everything about the lavi, from aeronautics to avionics, was different in the lavi from the f 16, which Israel could already get from the US for much less than it could manufacture it themselves. The lavi was supposed to meet Israel's needs in areas where the f 16 fell short, and it was thought to be one of the world's best fighter bombers at the time, but the scale of production that would have been necessary to make it economically feasible was so great that it would have become a major competitor for the f 16 and the US pressured Israel to drop the lavi and buy f 16's that would be specially designed to meet Israel's needs. Even today, the f 16's Israel flies have Israeli designed avionics that are specific to Israel's needs, and some f 16's US pilots fly also have Israeli designed avionics. There is absolutely no basis for believing Israel could not design a missile or an airplane without copying down a US model.

The article you cite is an opinion piece that speculate about "what if" Israel had sold US technology, not evidence that it actually did. Again, the issue is not that Israel may have sold some small amounts of US technology that was mixed in Israeli designed product, it is that Israeli designed weapons systems are often so advanced that the US is looking for reasons to insist on controlling what countries Israel sells them to.

 

[Xenophon]

Good, i hope he wins.

Appeasement once again was a disaster for them.

 

[Shogun]

the hilarity of the zionist excuses in this thread cracks me up. Again, we could see a picture of the israeli PM physically handing over an American missile and a handshake to China and the blank checkers would INSIST that it's within israels right to do so WHILE insisting that israel is nothing less than our global fucking sidekick and bestest friend in the world..


rich.