NeoConservatism vs Fascism

[Ravi]

Ravir:

If I post some of this rationale and sources do you intend to respond? The reason I ask is I often find in politics forums as soon as I do something like that, the response is either entirely ad hominem in nature, or the post is ignored entirely because the person doesn't know how to respond to it and doesn't wish to know.

I'm not saying you're that way, but if I actually take the time to provide it can I expect an objective response or an out-of-hand dismissal?

I will do my very best.

 

[BrianH]

Various scholars attribute different characteristics to fascism, but the following elements are usually seen as its integral parts: patriotism, nationalism, statism, militarism, totalitarianism, anti-communism, corporatism, populism, collectivism, autocracy and opposition to political and economic liberalism.

Sure looks like the modern R party to me.

well, we wouldn't very well exist as a nation if it wasn't for patriotism or nationalism. I agree with the rest...however, until you start seeing artists and liberals being killed for their views, or a mass race of people killed for their race, and a group of leading officials that wants to creat an arryan race and assert superiority over the world's races...then we're not involved in any fascism.

 

[jillian]

well, we wouldn't very well exist as a nation if it wasn't for patriotism or nationalism. I agree with the rest...however, until you start seeing artists and liberals being killed for their views, or a mass race of people killed for their race, and a group of leading officials that wants to creat an arryan race and assert superiority over the world's races...then we're not involved in any fascism.

None of those things have anything to do with fascism. Fascism is the joinder of corporations and government. You're confusing terms.

 

[BrianH]

http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761568245/fascism.html

"Fascism, modern political ideology that seeks to regenerate the social, economic, and cultural life of a country by basing it on a heightened sense of national belonging or ethnic identity. Fascism rejects liberal ideas such as freedom and individual rights, and often presses for the destruction of elections, legislatures, and other elements of democracy. Despite the idealistic goals of fascism, attempts to build fascist societies have led to wars and persecutions that caused millions of deaths. As a result, fascism is strongly associated with right-wing fanaticism, racism, totalitarianism, and violence.

Agreed it's radical right-wing, but we're no where near this point as a country and neither is the Republican party.

 

[Shogun]

Umberto Eco

I have Focault's Pendelum sitting in my library but have yet to dive into it.. anyone have a review?

 

[Steerpike]

Umberto Eco

I have Focault's Pendelum sitting in my library but have yet to dive into it.. anyone have a review?

It's a great book, Shogun. Definitely give it a read.

 

[jillian]

http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761568245/fascism.html

"Fascism, modern political ideology that seeks to regenerate the social, economic, and cultural life of a country by basing it on a heightened sense of national belonging or ethnic identity. Fascism rejects liberal ideas such as freedom and individual rights, and often presses for the destruction of elections, legislatures, and other elements of democracy. Despite the idealistic goals of fascism, attempts to build fascist societies have led to wars and persecutions that caused millions of deaths. As a result, fascism is strongly associated with right-wing fanaticism, racism, totalitarianism, and violence.

Agreed it's radical right-wing, but we're no where near this point as a country and neither is the Republican party.

Depends on one's perspective. I've already posted the warning signs and every one of them fit -- IF you were inclined to see it.

 

[BrianH]

Depends on one's perspective. I've already posted the warning signs and every one of them fit -- IF you were inclined to see it.

I'm not debating your warning signs, but we have a long way to go before you can honestly consider our nation (lead by a republican) is a fascist state.

 

[jillian]

I'm not debating your warning signs, but we have a long way to go before you can honestly consider our nation (lead by a republican) is a fascist state.

I didn't say we're a fascist state.. but I do think we shouldn't be compacent about where the repubs took us over the last 6 years. Private mercenary armies?? In THIS country???

 

[BrianH]

I didn't say we're a fascist state.. but I do think we shouldn't be compacent about where the repubs took us over the last 6 years. Private mercenary armies?? In THIS country???

This country used mercenaries to aid China before entrance into WWII...they were called the flying tigers--and were paid for every Japanese aircraft that was downed. (This is not a new thing.) I agree that it's something to look out for, but it's certainly not something that's only taken effect in the last couple of years. Sure it was actually made legal---but then again so was tapping phones. This stuff has been going on for a long time.

 

[jillian]

This country used mercenaries to aid China before entrance into WWII...they were called the flying tigers--and were paid for every Japanese aircraft that was downed. (This is not a new thing.) I agree that it's something to look out for, but it's certainly not something that's only taken effect in the last couple of years. Sure it was actually made legal---but then again so was tapping phones. This stuff has been going on for a long time.

When were there ever mercenaries operating in THIS country?

 

[BrianH]

When were there ever mercenaries operating in THIS country?

What's different than that and say the CIA, or NSA, or the FBI. We've got militant black groups and militant white groups roaming the country. We've got armed militias roaming the country. We've got criminals.

I don't agree with mercenaries or their intentions. Compared to our American soldiers, they have no patriotism, but hunger for war and money. I'm just saying that use of mercenaries by this country is not a new concept. As far as them being used in this country...I'm sure there are no reports that claim to be so. I'm sure there are contracted killers and secret militant groups that operate by control of the U.S. government. But fascism is defined by uniting a country based on many things, among them being ethnic nationality. We have not seen this.

 

[jillian]

What's different than that and say the CIA, or NSA, or the FBI. We've got militant black groups and militant white groups roaming the country. We've got armed militias roaming the country. We've got criminals.

I don't agree with mercenaries or their intentions. Compared to our American soldiers, they have no patriotism, but hunger for war and money. I'm just saying that use of mercenaries by this country is not a new concept. As far as them being used in this country...I'm sure there are no reports that claim to be so. I'm sure there are contracted killers and secret militant groups that operate by control of the U.S. government. But fascism is defined by uniting a country based on many things, among them being ethnic nationality. We have not seen this.

The CIA doesn't operate in this country.

The FBI isn't a paramilitary force.

And I don't believe fascism is about uniting ethnicties... it is about super NATIONALISM, at least in part.

 

[BrianH]

The CIA doesn't operate in this country.

The FBI isn't a paramilitary force.

And I don't believe fascism is about uniting ethnicties... it is about super NATIONALISM, at least in part.

Google the definition of Fascism. I've already posted a definition and a link. What about it aren't you reading. IT include NATIONALISM based on ethnic identity.

"Fascism, modern political ideology that seeks to regenerate the social, economic, and cultural life of a country by basing it on a heightened sense of national belonging or ethnic identity. Fascism rejects liberal ideas such as freedom and individual rights, and often presses for the destruction of elections, legislatures, and other elements of democracy. Despite the idealistic goals of fascism, attempts to build fascist societies have led to wars and persecutions that caused millions of deaths. As a result, fascism is strongly associated with right-wing fanaticism, racism, totalitarianism, and violence. "

The CIA doesn't operate in this country??? WHAT?

THe FBI is not a paramilitary force....??? Agreed they're not as large, but their more armed than a militia.

 

[midcan5]

That's easy to say, but like I said the book is heavily sourced. If you just dismiss it out of hand that's not much to discuss (and not really a substantive evaluation of anything).

"By this point, Goldberg's reasoning has progressed from unconvincing to incoherent. Modern liberalism, he argues, is linked to Nazism because both contain a cult of the organic (Hitler was a vegetarian) and both embrace sexual freedom (Himmler ordered his men "to father as many children as possible without marrying" in order to achieve the Aryan ideal). Eventually, Goldberg backs himself into asserting, in effect, that any government that does more than prevent abortions and provide for the common defense is inherently fascist. Granted, he gives a wide berth to the common defense. In a token criticism of President George W. Bush, Goldberg cites as evidence of fascist influence not the de facto suspension of habeas corpus and refusal to follow the Geneva Conventions, which go unmentioned, but rather Bush's extension of Medicare to cover prescription drugs."

And this is good relevant historical writing? From Slate piece above.

But to simplify this argument to its basic points, liberalism is about the Individual, fascism is about the State, if you can reconcile that contradiction you can reconcile anything. Goldberg does that because he doesn't like being a member of an ideology that is fascist at its extremes. Sorry Jonah, but you may have confused, purposely many, but your basic idea is wrong and actually very stupid.

 

[Taomon]

What's the difference?

Neoconservatism tries to make every evil act they commit to sound benign, while Fascism...oh yeah, nevermind.

 

[AllieBaba]

Liberalism in a nutshell.

 

[Diuretic]

Is Goldberg using Doublespeak? I suspect he is. In a sense he is the manifestation of Orwell's fears, or perhaps warnings, expressed in Nineteen Eighty-Four. Liberalism (US definition) is facism. Those are two contradictory ideas but Goldberg holds them. That's Doublespeak.

Goldberg is either mocking his readers or, if he's serious, is exposing himself as proto-totalitarian.

But it seems his enthusiasts, his defenders, blinded by their hatred of "liberalism" can't see what they're really admiring.

Goldbergers, get your heads out of your collective arse and see what he's really saying. Stop watching FoxNews, it's messing with your minds. Start talking to others who might not share your views but will join with you in polite and respectful discourse. It might tone down the hatred.

 

[jillian]

Google the definition of Fascism. I've already posted a definition and a link. What about it aren't you reading. IT include NATIONALISM based on ethnic identity.

"Fascism, modern political ideology that seeks to regenerate the social, economic, and cultural life of a country by basing it on a heightened sense of national belonging or ethnic identity. Fascism rejects liberal ideas such as freedom and individual rights, and often presses for the destruction of elections, legislatures, and other elements of democracy. Despite the idealistic goals of fascism, attempts to build fascist societies have led to wars and persecutions that caused millions of deaths. As a result, fascism is strongly associated with right-wing fanaticism, racism, totalitarianism, and violence. "

The CIA doesn't operate in this country??? WHAT?

THe FBI is not a paramilitary force....??? Agreed they're not as large, but their more armed than a militia.

The CIA only is authorized to operate overseas. The FBI operates in this country. Theoretically that is their respective spheres of influence. FBI is a police force. There's a difference.

Now ook at your definition... Heightenened nationalism OR ethnic identity. It doesn't require both. So who is it who isn't reading?

Fascism is associated with naziism, hence your confusion. But naziism also had other things wrapped up with it.

 

[Diuretic]

Liberalism in a nutshell.

Stop embarrassing yourself. Try thinking about an issue instead of snapping out stupid phrases.