Nam greybeards

[The Gadfly]

Read what I wrote a bit more closely, please. I recommended reading Robert McNamara's book as a primary source of information and Chomsky's on-line compendium as a secondary source for those who reading a whole book is too daunting a task.

So read the excerpted quote again, this time being mindful that it is McNamara's quote. Not Chomsky's. The quote tells the whole tale. What Chomsky has to say is redundant. You can agree with it if you wish to or reject it if you choose. It doesn't change a thing.

I did, McNamara is a self serving prick, responsible for the needless deaths of thousands of GI's due to his incompetent micro management.

That is not the major point of McNamara's contrition
Robert McNamara - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"[h]e concluded well before leaving the Pentagon that the war was futile, but he did not share that insight with the public until late in life. In 1995, he took a stand against his own conduct of the war, confessing in a memoir that it was 'wrong, terribly wrong.'" In return, he faced a "firestorm of scorn" at that time

Typical McNamara-even after all these years, that so-called "genius" knows he fucked up Vietnam, but STILL does not know how he did it! Well, here's a hint, Bob-IF you and those other civilian "whiz kids" on your staff could have removed your heads from your arrogant, elitist arses long enough to figure out whatever the hell it was you wanted us to do, things might have turned out differently. As it was, what we have here is a failure of leadership. NOW, you're sorry? Go look for your absolution elsewhere; you can start at the Wall.....

 

[AnonymousIV]

"values and intentions" and "judgment and capabilities"? ~ I understand values and intentions cause judgement to be wrong. I have to stop and honor the VietNam veteran. Thank-you for your service to our country and thanks for leading us through the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and having our backs at the same time.

What you fail to understand is your patronizing expression of gratitude tends to perpetuate the mistaken notion that the fighting in Vietnam somehow served the interests of our Nation when in fact the opposite is true. You might as well thank Robert McNamara for his "service to our country." After all, if it weren't for him we might never have had the opportunity to kill 58,000 of our young men and cripple tens of thousands more -- for no good reason.

While Vietnam veterans deserve our sympathy for being exploited by a corrupt and incompetent government the only entity who has a valid reason to express gratitude for the unnecessary ordeal our troops suffered in Vietnam is the Military Industrial Complex. The problem with assuming a subjectively grateful public posture is it enables repetitions of the same kind of unnecessary military aggressions like Iraq and Afghanistan.

Try examining the situation objectively and see it for what it is, not what you'd like it to be.

Your sympathy for the poor Communists oppressed by America is more convincing that your sympathy for American veterans.

Are
all VietNam vets sympathy hounds? That's always you're reply, when anyone shows graditude. I understand what it perpetuates(sp?), everybody's not the same, and frankly,
your unswerving attitude, makes me think, it's hollow.

 

[daveman]

What you fail to understand is your patronizing expression of gratitude tends to perpetuate the mistaken notion that the fighting in Vietnam somehow served the interests of our Nation when in fact the opposite is true. You might as well thank Robert McNamara for his "service to our country." After all, if it weren't for him we might never have had the opportunity to kill 58,000 of our young men and cripple tens of thousands more -- for no good reason.

While Vietnam veterans deserve our sympathy for being exploited by a corrupt and incompetent government the only entity who has a valid reason to express gratitude for the unnecessary ordeal our troops suffered in Vietnam is the Military Industrial Complex. The problem with assuming a subjectively grateful public posture is it enables repetitions of the same kind of unnecessary military aggressions like Iraq and Afghanistan.

Try examining the situation objectively and see it for what it is, not what you'd like it to be.

Your sympathy for the poor Communists oppressed by America is more convincing that your sympathy for American veterans.

Are
all VietNam vets sympathy hounds?

I can't think of any Vietnam vets who are sympathy hounds.

That's always you're reply, when anyone shows graditude. I understand what it perpetuates(sp?), everybody's not the same, and frankly,
your unswerving attitude, makes me think, it's hollow.

It's my reply when it's merited. If Mike weren't showing more sympathy for Communists than he is for our veterans, I wouldn't have said it.

 

[AnonymousIV]

Sorry, Dave, I thought your statement, was aimed @ me. Imaginary slights, a part of DD.

 

[daveman]

Sorry, Dave, I thought your statement, was aimed @ me. Imaginary slights, a part of DD.

No worries.

 

[The Gadfly]

What you fail to understand is your patronizing expression of gratitude tends to perpetuate the mistaken notion that the fighting in Vietnam somehow served the interests of our Nation when in fact the opposite is true. You might as well thank Robert McNamara for his "service to our country." After all, if it weren't for him we might never have had the opportunity to kill 58,000 of our young men and cripple tens of thousands more -- for no good reason.

While Vietnam veterans deserve our sympathy for being exploited by a corrupt and incompetent government the only entity who has a valid reason to express gratitude for the unnecessary ordeal our troops suffered in Vietnam is the Military Industrial Complex. The problem with assuming a subjectively grateful public posture is it enables repetitions of the same kind of unnecessary military aggressions like Iraq and Afghanistan.

Try examining the situation objectively and see it for what it is, not what you'd like it to be.

Your sympathy for the poor Communists oppressed by America is more convincing that your sympathy for American veterans.

Are
all VietNam vets sympathy hounds? That's always you're reply, when anyone shows graditude. I understand what it perpetuates(sp?), everybody's not the same, and frankly,
your unswerving attitude, makes me think, it's hollow.

Since you asked....NO, we are not! The same thing goes for ginscpy's comment about us "grandstanding". Speaking for myself, I am not a victim nor a villain; I am not a demon, nor a saint; not a hero nor a sucker; not anything else people who want to use our service to advance their own political agenda have called us, or made us out to be. I am a man, a survivor, an American who proudly did his duty to this nation. I am an individual, not a stereotype or a caricature. I am not broken, nor ashamed, nor defeated; not a whipped dog begging for the scraps from the permanent civilian's table.

I do not want or need your sympathy or your pity; you can save that, for the families of 58, 272 of my brothers and sisters whose names are on the Wall, for those of my brothers disabled as a result of their service, for those still waiting (after 40 years!) for their agent orange compensation; for my brothers lost, forgotten, and alone on the streets.

I do not want your apologies for how we were treated; if you were not one of those who abused us, no apology is needed; and if you were, it is over, it is done, and dealing with how YOU feel now about what YOU did, is YOUR problem, not mine.

All I want from you, is to be treated with the same respect due to any American combat veteran; no more, no less. As for any of you who want to judge my war, or how I fought it, I suggest you learn to play the game, before you attempt to coach it.

 

[High_Gravity]

Your sympathy for the poor Communists oppressed by America is more convincing that your sympathy for American veterans.

Are
all VietNam vets sympathy hounds? That's always you're reply, when anyone shows graditude. I understand what it perpetuates(sp?), everybody's not the same, and frankly,
your unswerving attitude, makes me think, it's hollow.

Since you asked....NO, we are not! The same thing goes for ginscpy's comment about us "grandstanding". Speaking for myself, I am not a victim nor a villain; I am not a demon, nor a saint; not a hero nor a sucker; not anything else people who want to use our service to advance their own political agenda have called us, or made us out to be. I am a man, a survivor, an American who proudly did his duty to this nation. I am an individual, not a stereotype or a caricature. I am not broken, nor ashamed, nor defeated; not a whipped dog begging for the scraps from the permanent civilian's table.

I do not want or need your sympathy or your pity; you can save that, for the families of 58, 272 of my brothers and sisters whose names are on the Wall, for those of my brothers disabled as a result of their service, for those still waiting (after 40 years!) for their agent orange compensation; for my brothers lost, forgotten, and alone on the streets.

I do not want your apologies for how we were treated; if you were not one of those who abused us, no apology is needed; and if you were, it is over, it is done, and dealing with how YOU feel now about what YOU did, is YOUR problem, not mine.

All I want from you, is to be treated with the same respect due to any American combat veteran; no more, no less. As for any of you who want to judge my war, or how I fought it, I suggest you learn to play the game, before you attempt to coach it.

 

[PrometheusBound]

Having served in combat for 7 months near the border with North Vietnam, I can verify that we were thrown into a war that was unnecessary and unwinnable, given the fact that the people we were trying to save from Communism were cowards, crooks, and Communist sympathizers. The South Vietnamese lost the war and prevented us from winning it. They had no right to emigrate here, but those in power in America, who got their own sons out of having to die for their mistakes, have no shame in continuing to insult veterans by putting foreigners' lives and ambitions over those of their fellow Americans.

 

[SFC Ollie]

Our politics lost the Vietnam war.

Nuff said.

 

[AnonymousIV]

An old MSgt, now since departed, told me. when he left VietNam, they were shooting at 12 year old boys. All things implied.......

 

[editec]

So we lost the war.

Have the dominos fallen?

No.

Viet Nam is now a "most favored" trading partner.

The war was premised on a lie, folks.

Like most WARS of empire this nation has been in for the last 50 years.

 

[namvet]

So we lost the war.

Have the dominos fallen?

No.

Viet Nam is now a "most favored" trading partner.

The war was premised on a lie, folks.

Like most WARS of empire this nation has been in for the last 50 years.

no he lost it. a quitter. a big major loser. like most libs soft headed and feeble minded

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-FibDxpkb0]Lyndon Johnson - Remarks on Decision to not seek Reelection - YouTube[/ame]​

 

[MikeK]

So we lost the war.

Have the dominos fallen?

No.

Viet Nam is now a "most favored" trading partner.

The war was premised on a lie, folks.

Like most WARS of empire this nation has been in for the last 50 years.

no he lost it. a quitter. a big major loser. like most libs soft headed and feeble minded

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-FibDxpkb0]Lyndon Johnson - Remarks on Decision to not seek Reelection - YouTube[/ame]​

The issue is not whether we "won" or "lost" in our armed interference with the Vietnamese civil war. The issue is what you guys were put through for no legitimate reason. The lies that were told to justify sending you there are war crimes, as are the lies that were told to put us in Iraq. The problem is there are no prosecutions, which ensures it will happen again and again -- because these sonsabitches protect each other.

 

[daveman]

So we lost the war.

Have the dominos fallen?

No.

Viet Nam is now a "most favored" trading partner.

The war was premised on a lie, folks.

Like most WARS of empire this nation has been in for the last 50 years.

How many people did the northern Communist regime kill in the South after we left? How many people did Pol Pot kill in Cambodia?

You really shouldn't read Chomsky. He got all of that so utterly wrong.

 

[westwall]

So we lost the war.

Have the dominos fallen?

No.

Viet Nam is now a "most favored" trading partner.

The war was premised on a lie, folks.

Like most WARS of empire this nation has been in for the last 50 years.

How many people did the northern Communist regime kill in the South after we left? How many people did Pol Pot kill in Cambodia?

You really shouldn't read Chomsky. He got all of that so utterly wrong.

Oh no, to leftists it's Ok for governments to kill its own citizens. When Stalin was murdering millions during the collectivisation of the farms the leftists in the UK and here (who knew exactly what was going on) commended him for his strength of will in dragging the country towards their socialist utopia.

Pricks.

 

[daveman]

So we lost the war.

Have the dominos fallen?

No.

Viet Nam is now a "most favored" trading partner.

The war was premised on a lie, folks.

Like most WARS of empire this nation has been in for the last 50 years.

How many people did the northern Communist regime kill in the South after we left? How many people did Pol Pot kill in Cambodia?

You really shouldn't read Chomsky. He got all of that so utterly wrong.

Oh no, to leftists it's Ok for governments to kill its own citizens. When Stalin was murdering millions during the collectivisation of the farms the leftists in the UK and here (who knew exactly what was going on) commended him for his strength of will in dragging the country towards their socialist utopia.

Pricks.

The left never met a dictator they wouldn't felch.

 

[usmcstinger]

I blame Sect. of Defense McNamara for not letting the Generals run the war. Operation Dye Marker (his tactic) was responsible for too many needless deaths of my brother Marines and naval MCBs.
C 1/4 USMC Vietnam 67-68 Northern I Corps. I have no regrets and make no apologies!

 

[The Gadfly]

I blame Sect. of Defense McNamara for not letting the Generals run the war. Operation Dye Marker (his tactic) was responsible for too many needless deaths of my brother Marines and naval MCBs.
C 1/4 USMC Vietnam 67-68 Northern I Corps. I have no regrets and make no apologies!

Amen, brother, amen!

 

[PrometheusBound]

I blame Sect. of Defense McNamara for not letting the Generals run the war. Operation Dye Marker (his tactic) was responsible for too many needless deaths of my brother Marines and naval MCBs.
C 1/4 USMC Vietnam 67-68 Northern I Corps. I have no regrets and make no apologies![/QUOTE
In Okinawa on my way back from the Nam, I met somebody I had gone through ITR with who'd been assigned to the Fourth Marines. I asked him whether others from our ITR had gone to his company. There were four, all KIA. He himself had been bayoneted and shot in another firefight. I was with Hotel 2/5, which was portrayed in the movie "Full Metal Jacket" about actions ten months after I left it.

 

[usmcstinger]

66% of those who served in Vietnam enlisted in the Armed Forces.