Myth:*national debt is a burden that will ruin our children’s futures

[CrusaderFrank]

Spain: Myth:*national debt is a burden that will ruin our children’s futures

Argentina: Myth:*national debt is a burden that will ruin our children’s futures

Germany: Myth:*national debt is a burden that will ruin our children’s futures

 

[itfitzme]

[MENTION=23239]westwall[/MENTION]

The difficulty you appear to be having is in the basics of how modern monetary economies function. You also seem to be oblvious the fact that level of money on account is meaningless because the money system is a flow process. That money on account this month is not the same money as last month. The third failure is this delusion of thinking money is a real thing. It is a piece of paper that is a transferable contract that says the holder did some work, spent time providing some value added labor. What is real is the product and services provided, not the money.

The question for you to answer is what entity should carry debt in the economy?

 

[CrusaderFrank]

[MENTION=23239]westwall[/MENTION]

The difficulty you appear to be having is in the basics of how modern monetary economies function. You also seem to be oblvious the fact that level of money on account is meaningless because the money system is a flow process. That money on account this month is not the same money as last month. The third failure is this delusion of thinking money is a real thing. It is a piece of paper that is a transferable contract that says the holder did some work, spent time providing some value added labor. What is real is the product and services provided, not the money.

The question for you to answer is what entity should carry debt in the economy?

Businesses

 

[Kimura]

if it doesn't go anywhere I wont bother sending it to IRS then!!

The fact you have to pay your taxes in dollars is one of the reasons it has value. This is why those worthless pieces of paper are in demand. It guarantees all assets, prices and debts are denominated in dollars.

You mean legal tender laws are what give the dollar value? Wrong. That's shows an utterly shallow understanding of money. The government of Germany had such laws in 1923 when the Deutschemark became virtually worthless and businesses would pay their employees with 100 trillion Mark notes. Why didn't it work then?

You people with the Weimar example, it's not applicable to the US. We're never going to have hyperinflation, barring a civil war or some other calamity.

Yes, seignorage is what gives your dollar value.

 

[Kimura]

ok then I'm going to deduct from my taxes the amount used to pay back the national debt because an idiot liberal has just assured me that it doesn't have to be paid back!!

Your tax $$$ is destroyed, it doesn't really go anywhere. That's not how functional finance operates.

Then why don't we finance the entire government simply by printing federal reserve notes?

Taxes function as a way to regulate aggregate demand, they help take $$$ out of the economy. If all things remained equal, then taxes would constantly have to increase with spending to regulate inflation. If the US government kept spending without taxing, as per your example above, we'd would eventually see an increase in the general price level.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

The fact you have to pay your taxes in dollars is one of the reasons it has value. This is why those worthless pieces of paper are in demand. It guarantees all assets, prices and debts are denominated in dollars.

You mean legal tender laws are what give the dollar value? Wrong. That's shows an utterly shallow understanding of money. The government of Germany had such laws in 1923 when the Deutschemark became virtually worthless and businesses would pay their employees with 100 trillion Mark notes. Why didn't it work then?

You people with Weimar example, it's not applicable to the US. We're never going to have hyperinflation, barring a civil war or some other calamity.

Yes, seignorage is what gives your dollar value.

BBC ON THIS DAY | 19 | 1967: Wilson defends 'pound in your pocket'

 

[Kimura]

Spain: Myth:*national debt is a burden that will ruin our children’s futures

Argentina: Myth:*national debt is a burden that will ruin our children’s futures

Germany: Myth:*national debt is a burden that will ruin our children’s futures

Spain and Germany aren't currency issuers, they're currency users, which is a different ball game. This is one of the problems with being a member of the Eurozone. EU countries operate more like US states in this context. If these country could still issue their currencies, they could have spent in a counter-cyclical fashion in we wouldn't have the problems we now see in Spain, Portugal, Ireland, Greece and Italy.

Argentina pegged the peso to the dollar which was not a wise move.

Again, at the risk of sounding redundant, in economics such a concept doesn't exist, whereby we sacrifice today's output to some date in the past, and then roll it over to generations before us. Therefore, in real terms, no such burden or share of debt exists for individual Americans, our children or grandchildren. Our children and grandchildren, just like you and I, will be able to go to work and produce and consume their real output of real goods and services regardless of how many bonds need to be rolled over.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Your tax $$$ is destroyed, it doesn't really go anywhere. That's not how functional finance operates.

Then why don't we finance the entire government simply by printing federal reserve notes?

Taxes function as a way to regulate aggregate demand, they help take $$$ out of the economy.

So we're taking more money out of the economy that at any point in human history...and you say that's a good thing?

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Spain: Myth:*national debt is a burden that will ruin our children’s futures

Argentina: Myth:*national debt is a burden that will ruin our children’s futures

Germany: Myth:*national debt is a burden that will ruin our children’s futures

Spain and Germany aren't currency issuers, they're currency users, which is a different ball game. This is one of the problems with being the Eurozone. EU countries operate more like US states in this context. If these country could still issue their currencies, they could have spent in a counter-cyclical fashion in we wouldn't have the problems we now see in Spain, Portugal, Ireland, Greece and Italy.

Argentina pegged the peso to the dollar which was not a wise move.

Again, at the risk of sounding redundant, in economics such a concept doesn't exist, whereby we sacrifice today's output to some date in the past, and then roll it over to generations before us. Therefore, in real terms, for Americans and this retarded concept about Americans "share" of public debt, no such burden or share of debt exists for individual Americans, our children or grandchildren. Our children and grandchildren, just like you and I, will be able to go to work and produce and consume their real output of real goods and services regardless of how many bonds need to be rolled over.

I think you get paid to spew this dangerous toxic nonsense

 

[Kimura]

Spain: Myth:*national debt is a burden that will ruin our children’s futures

Argentina: Myth:*national debt is a burden that will ruin our children’s futures

Germany: Myth:*national debt is a burden that will ruin our children’s futures

Spain and Germany aren't currency issuers, they're currency users, which is a different ball game. This is one of the problems with being the Eurozone. EU countries operate more like US states in this context. If these country could still issue their currencies, they could have spent in a counter-cyclical fashion in we wouldn't have the problems we now see in Spain, Portugal, Ireland, Greece and Italy.

Argentina pegged the peso to the dollar which was not a wise move.

Again, at the risk of sounding redundant, in economics such a concept doesn't exist, whereby we sacrifice today's output to some date in the past, and then roll it over to generations before us. Therefore, in real terms, for Americans and this retarded concept about Americans "share" of public debt, no such burden or share of debt exists for individual Americans, our children or grandchildren. Our children and grandchildren, just like you and I, will be able to go to work and produce and consume their real output of real goods and services regardless of how many bonds need to be rolled over.

I think you get paid to spew this dangerous toxic nonsense

Call your local university and ask if such a concept exists in economics. It's nonsense designed to scare you, the same as those debt clocks.

 

[Kimura]

Then why don't we finance the entire government simply by printing federal reserve notes?

Taxes function as a way to regulate aggregate demand, they help take $$$ out of the economy.

So we're taking more money out of the economy that at any point in human history...and you say that's a good thing?

It depends. For example, FICA is a regressive tax. If it was up to me, I'd get rid of it and just fund SS out the general revenue.

 

[itfitzme]

Spain: Myth:*national debt is a burden that will ruin our children’s futures

Argentina: Myth:*national debt is a burden that will ruin our children’s futures

Germany: Myth:*national debt is a burden that will ruin our children’s futures

Spain and Germany aren't currency issuers, they're currency users, which is a different ball game. This is one of the problems with being the Eurozone. EU countries operate more like US states in this context. If these country could still issue their currencies, they could have spent in a counter-cyclical fashion in we wouldn't have the problems we now see in Spain, Portugal, Ireland, Greece and Italy.

Argentina pegged the peso to the dollar which was not a wise move.

Again, at the risk of sounding redundant, in economics such a concept doesn't exist, whereby we sacrifice today's output to some date in the past, and then roll it over to generations before us. Therefore, in real terms, for Americans and this retarded concept about Americans "share" of public debt, no such burden or share of debt exists for individual Americans, our children or grandchildren. Our children and grandchildren, just like you and I, will be able to go to work and produce and consume their real output of real goods and services regardless of how many bonds need to be rolled over.

I think you get paid to spew this dangerous toxic nonsense

He's absolutely correct. We cannot eat future food or live in future houses. Everything that will be consumed in the future will be produced in the future.

This is an absolute physical fact.

You have no rational basis to argue otherwise.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Spain and Germany aren't currency issuers, they're currency users, which is a different ball game. This is one of the problems with being the Eurozone. EU countries operate more like US states in this context. If these country could still issue their currencies, they could have spent in a counter-cyclical fashion in we wouldn't have the problems we now see in Spain, Portugal, Ireland, Greece and Italy.

Argentina pegged the peso to the dollar which was not a wise move.

Again, at the risk of sounding redundant, in economics such a concept doesn't exist, whereby we sacrifice today's output to some date in the past, and then roll it over to generations before us. Therefore, in real terms, for Americans and this retarded concept about Americans "share" of public debt, no such burden or share of debt exists for individual Americans, our children or grandchildren. Our children and grandchildren, just like you and I, will be able to go to work and produce and consume their real output of real goods and services regardless of how many bonds need to be rolled over.

I think you get paid to spew this dangerous toxic nonsense

Call your local university and ask if such a concept exists in economics. It's nonsense designed to scare you, the same as those debt clocks.

Right. Debt is harmless. My Dad and grandfather turned over a country with no government debt. Im turning over one with $17T plus another $100T of unfunded liabilities

 

[Kimura]

I think you get paid to spew this dangerous toxic nonsense

Call your local university and ask if such a concept exists in economics. It's nonsense designed to scare you, the same as those debt clocks.

Right. Debt is harmless. My Dad and grandfather turned over a country with no government debt. Im turning over one with $17T plus another $100T of unfunded liabilities

Again, there's no such thing as unfunded liabilities. How many ways do I need to spell it out for you?

Debt certainly isn't harmless. Deficits matter, just not in the way you and many others in the general public seem to believe.

Again, at the risk of sounding redundant, you cannot compare the debt of a currency issuer, such as the US, to that of a household.

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

The idea that there are people stupid enough to actually believe we can spend ourselves into higher and higher debt without negative consequences is just astonishing.

 

[bripat9643]

The fact you have to pay your taxes in dollars is one of the reasons it has value. This is why those worthless pieces of paper are in demand. It guarantees all assets, prices and debts are denominated in dollars.

You mean legal tender laws are what give the dollar value? Wrong. That's shows an utterly shallow understanding of money. The government of Germany had such laws in 1923 when the Deutschemark became virtually worthless and businesses would pay their employees with 100 trillion Mark notes. Why didn't it work then?

You people with the Weimar example, it's not applicable to the US. We're never going to have hyperinflation, barring a civil war or some other calamity.

Yes, seignorage is what gives your dollar value.

Yeah, right, no example that proves your theories wrong is "applicable." Why? Only because the trolls who believe money has value because the government says so haven't achieved full control yet.

 

[bripat9643]

Call your local university and ask if such a concept exists in economics. It's nonsense designed to scare you, the same as those debt clocks.

Right. Debt is harmless. My Dad and grandfather turned over a country with no government debt. Im turning over one with $17T plus another $100T of unfunded liabilities

Again, there's no such thing as unfunded liabilities. How many ways do I need to spell it out for you?

What do you call it when the government passes legislation that mandates paying out certain benefits to people, but there is no foreseeable revenue to pay those benefits?

Debt certainly isn't harmless. Deficits matter, just not in the way you and many others in the general public seem to believe.

I think they matter because when the government renigs on a promise to pay, then it harms the people it made the promises to, and economic chaos ensues. Why do you think it matters?

Again, at the risk of sounding redundant, you cannot compare the debt of a currency issuer, such as the US, to that of a household.

That's true only because households can't engage in legalized counterfeiting as the government can.

 

[bripat9643]

Spain and Germany aren't currency issuers, they're currency users, which is a different ball game. This is one of the problems with being the Eurozone. EU countries operate more like US states in this context. If these country could still issue their currencies, they could have spent in a counter-cyclical fashion in we wouldn't have the problems we now see in Spain, Portugal, Ireland, Greece and Italy.

Argentina pegged the peso to the dollar which was not a wise move.

Again, at the risk of sounding redundant, in economics such a concept doesn't exist, whereby we sacrifice today's output to some date in the past, and then roll it over to generations before us. Therefore, in real terms, for Americans and this retarded concept about Americans "share" of public debt, no such burden or share of debt exists for individual Americans, our children or grandchildren. Our children and grandchildren, just like you and I, will be able to go to work and produce and consume their real output of real goods and services regardless of how many bonds need to be rolled over.

I think you get paid to spew this dangerous toxic nonsense

He's absolutely correct. We cannot eat future food or live in future houses. Everything that will be consumed in the future will be produced in the future.

This is an absolute physical fact.

You have no rational basis to argue otherwise.

In the future, when the government renigs on the bonds it issued, just explain to the owners of those bonds that they can't eat future food or live in future houses.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

There’s really no such thing as “paying back” the national debt unless you think the government should be entirely eliminated (which I think most of us would agree is a pretty unrealistic view of the world).

Most of us, yes.

But many on the right in fact have an unrealistic view of the world.

 

[Kimura]

You mean legal tender laws are what give the dollar value? Wrong. That's shows an utterly shallow understanding of money. The government of Germany had such laws in 1923 when the Deutschemark became virtually worthless and businesses would pay their employees with 100 trillion Mark notes. Why didn't it work then?

You people with the Weimar example, it's not applicable to the US. We're never going to have hyperinflation, barring a civil war or some other calamity.

Yes, seignorage is what gives your dollar value.

Yeah, right, no example that proves your theories wrong is "applicable." Why? Only because the trolls who believe money has value because the government says so haven't achieved full control yet.

The Weimar Republic a horrendous example. Hyperinflation is more than a monetary event. Weimar Germany had its debt denominated in Sterling, and its industrial capacity was wiped out by war, so its industrial capacity was nonexistent. Its output was basically controlled by other countries. The more they printed, it wasn't being offset by real goods and services, which is what caused the hyperinflation. This simply can't happen in the United States.