My view on Iraq War. Surge - Well, it is about time!

[Dr Grump]

And that lends credibility to the criticism, of the lack thereof, because...?

Your exact quote was:

Given your argument re: Bush:
What direct criticism does FDR deserve for these plans and all those unnecessary deaths?
Who levied these criticisms, and when?

IOW, you are trying to equate the two. You can't. They are two different situations. It's like trying to compare the serial killer to the guy who shoots the intruder who is just about to rape his wife. Other than the fact both parties have killed, they have little in common. You trying to draw that bow reeks of desperation..

 

[mattskramer]

Any guesses as to to why?

Want to guess why they dont teach your procedure at any command and staff college anywhere on the planet?

My answer to your question: I don't know. Why don't you teach me? It is unlikely that cowboy Bush with his itchy trigger finger would consider full war preparedness advice anyway. Uh. Before explaining it to me, how about answering my question about hospital preparedness.

 

[mattskramer]

It took me a few days to figure you out, but now I get ya, which is why I added the qualifier at the beginning of my post to you on this subject. You talk black and white. Your call I guess. Your loss too...because you are dead wrong above. My point directly relates to yours - whether you like it or not. Having such narrow definitions in your debating style does nothing to add to your POV. In fact, it detracts from it because using such a narrow focus means wider issues that are very pertenant to the debate are overlooked, unilaterally dismissed or buried. I will know to ignore you in the future. You are not interested in debate, you are only interested in scoring cheap, meaningless points.

I might as well give up discussing the war with him. It is as if he is a bushbot. Just look at the flow of thought in the sequence of posts for this thread. It is as if M14 is not even willing to consider the possibility that Bush made even the slightest mistake that could have been foreseeable and preventable. Bush made no foreseeable lapse in judgment what so ever from the fist day of the Iraq way to today. When I break it down to just one simple yes-no question, instead of giving a straight answer, he berates me and calls me names. I answer questions. Okay. Sometimes I have even made errors in my answers. I admit when I make obvious errors. I am far from perfect. With M14 it is like – forget it.

 

[Annie]

Well, since you can't/don't see the forest for the trees, I'll spell it out for you. FDR was not criticised because he was involved in a popular, necessary war. Bush is not - thus he is criticised. See how easily the point is proved...

While criticisms were leveled at FDR during WWII, most strenuously regarding Yalta and becoming an 'arsenal of Democracy', (the later a legacy we still live with-see NATO), otherwise it was left to the editorial pages of such as The Chicago Tribune and some doctoral thesis. Even with these two glaring issues, leaks were not published and representatives of either party did not get up and publicly criticize, after all it was a time of war. Truth tell, if everyone would behave more like that today in all likelihood battles chosen, would be settled much sooner, with less strife. Arguing the rightness or wrongness has plenty of time in hindsight. I know it's not going to happen, but it really did not so long ago, even regarding Carter and Iran.

I don't remember any Republican leadership trying to run over and 'make peace happen.'

 

[maineman]

While criticisms were leveled at FDR during WWII, most strenuously regarding Yalta and becoming an 'arsenal of Democracy', (the later a legacy we still live with-see NATO), otherwise it was left to the editorial pages of such as The Chicago Tribune and some doctoral thesis. Even with these two glaring issues, leaks were not published and representatives of either party did not get up and publicly criticize, after all it was a time of war. Truth tell, if everyone would behave more like that today in all likelihood battles chosen, would be settled much sooner, with less strife. Arguing the rightness or wrongness has plenty of time in hindsight. I know it's not going to happen, but it really did not so long ago, even regarding Carter and Iran.

I don't remember any Republican leadership trying to run over and 'make peace happen.'

you don't recall republicans criticizing Clinton's actions in the Balkans while troops were on the groud? I do.

And regardless, I think that political dialog in the United States has little to no real effect on a sectarian struggle on the other side of the globe.

 

[Annie]

you don't recall republicans criticizing Clinton's actions in the Balkans while troops were on the groud? I do.

And regardless, I think that political dialog in the United States has little to no real effect on a sectarian struggle on the other side of the globe.

What I said:

Arguing the rightness or wrongness has plenty of time in hindsight. I know it's not going to happen, but it really did not so long ago, even regarding Carter and Iran.

 

[maineman]

What I said:

"I don't remember any Republican leadership trying to run over and 'make peace happen."

And I said that I remember republican leadership trying to second guess Clinton and decry HIS actions while troops were on the ground in ways quite similar to the actions of democrats today.

 

[M14 Shooter]

My answer to your question: I don't know. Why don't you teach me?

I've been trying. You have remained willfully ignorant.

 

[M14 Shooter]

While criticisms were leveled at FDR during WWII, most strenuously regarding Yalta and becoming an 'arsenal of Democracy', (the later a legacy we still live with-see NATO), otherwise it was left to the editorial pages of such as The Chicago Tribune and some doctoral thesis. Even with these two glaring issues, leaks were not published and representatives of either party did not get up and publicly criticize, after all it was a time of war.

Imagine, if today, our tankers had to do this to have a chance at surviving:

The liberal left, while not really understanding the situation, would have a field day.

 

[Annie]

"I don't remember any Republican leadership trying to run over and 'make peace happen."

And I said that I remember republican leadership trying to second guess Clinton and decry HIS actions while troops were on the ground in ways quite similar to the actions of democrats today.

and once again I said under the Carter administration it was still in effect.

 

[maineman]

and once again I said under the Carter administration it was still in effect.

you don't think that the Reagan organization made Carter's handling of Iran a campaign issue?

 

[Annie]

you don't think that the Reagan organization made Carter's handling of Iran a campaign issue?

That's what you are missing, no one has ever waged any type of military issues without criticism within our country, it should still stop at within, but hasn't for a long time now.

 

[maineman]

That's what you are missing, no one has ever waged any type of military issues without criticism within our country, it should still stop at within, but hasn't for a long time now.

I don't recall any republicans sounding that refrain when Clinton was sending troops to the Balkans...

and how, in today's electronic world, do you keep criticism confined to within anywhere?

 

[Annie]

I don't recall any republicans sounding that refrain when Clinton was sending troops to the Balkans...

and how, in today's electronic world, do you keep criticism confined to within anywhere?

By making it clear it's directed to one of the branches of government or the people. Leave no opening for another country to think it's meant for them. In effect, we have a separate state department going.

 

[maineman]

By making it clear it's directed to one of the branches of government or the people. Leave no opening for another country to think it's meant for them. In effect, we have a separate state department going.

our enemies will still take note of our dissention.

...a necessary - albeit sometimes counterproductive -by-product of a robust democracy.

 

[Annie]

our enemies will still take note of our dissention.

...a necessary - albeit sometimes counterproductive -by-product of a robust democracy.

I disagree, with leaks from State or CIA to NYTimes and such, it sets up the separate departments, without direction or oversight. That is not good for our country.

Same with legislators heading on separate meetings with other governments, without approval from Executive Branch. This is not in the same sphere as what you spoke of regarding Clinton. It's escalating and just like the filabusters that are now bothering the Democrats, they can expect more of the same regarding judicial appointments, interference with foreign affairs that they've been handing out the past years, if they win the Presidency.

 

[maineman]

I disagree, with leaks from State or CIA to NYTimes and such, it sets up the separate departments, without direction or oversight. That is not good for our country.

Same with legislators heading on separate meetings with other governments, without approval from Executive Branch. This is not in the same sphere as what you spoke of regarding Clinton. It's escalating and just like the filabusters that are now bothering the Democrats, they can expect more of the same regarding judicial appointments, interference with foreign affairs that they've been handing out the past years, if they win the Presidency.

if we get a few more sentators, filibusters won't be an issue!

 

[Annie]

if we get a few more sentators, filibusters won't be an issue!

That would be true, but only until the next time the chance occurs, which we both know it will.

 

[maineman]

And... you seem to have forgotten Speaker Denny Hastert's unauthorized trip to meet with the Columbian government, by the way. Oversight, I am sure!

what is good for the goose....

 

[mattskramer]

I've been trying. You have remained willfully ignorant.

Show me the post where you have explained why my ideas are literally impossible. Direct me to the post where you explain why they don’t teach my procedure at any command and staff college anywhere on the planet? You have not explained anything. All that I have gathered from you is calling me an ignorant parrot. You say things have never been done. You say that such is impossible. You do not explain why such is impossible. I’m still waiting for a minor criticism from you about Bush. I guess that it will never come.