My Two Cents Regarding People Who Think Islam Is Intolerant.

Abrogation does not apply to anything but the Qur'an? Does that mean that Allah is the only person that is ever wrong?
You stated that this came from the "first surah," which I found funny. And thank you for demonstrating that the concept of nasikh and mansukh is above your level of comprehension.

It still comes down to when Muhammad said this, and what he said after. Even if it is not the Qur'an, it can still be abrogated by something he said later.
Can you show me the hadith in which he (SAWS) indicates that this has been "abrogated"?
Abrogation is not as complicated as you would like to think Ibn Hazm the author of an-Nasikh wal-Mansukh,states that there are 114 verses that speak of tolerance in early Islam, but all were abrogated by one verse, "Slay the idolaters wherever you find them" (Q. 9:5)

Ibn Hazm jurist and theologian.

Addressed by as-Suyuti, who demonstrated that no more than 21 ayat are nasikh and mansukh; and subsequently by Shah Waliullah, who posited that as-Suyuti's 21 could be reduced to 5.
 
Does that one work for you Kalam?

I am not an Islamic scholar, so I leave it to Islamic scholars to abrogate the Qur'an. I just mock those that claim it doesn't happen.

Nope. Mr. Fitnah lacks the intellectual honesty and capacity to post any information that doesn't contradict his silly preconceptions. Unfortunately for you and him, centuries of scholarship cannot simply be ignored.
 
You stated that this came from the "first surah," which I found funny. And thank you for demonstrating that the concept of nasikh and mansukh is above your level of comprehension.


Can you show me the hadith in which he (SAWS) indicates that this has been "abrogated"?
Abrogation is not as complicated as you would like to think Ibn Hazm the author of an-Nasikh wal-Mansukh,states that there are 114 verses that speak of tolerance in early Islam, but all were abrogated by one verse, "Slay the idolaters wherever you find them" (Q. 9:5)

Ibn Hazm jurist and theologian.

Addressed by as-Suyuti, who demonstrated that no more than 21 ayat are nasikh and mansukh; and subsequently by Shah Waliullah, who posited that as-Suyuti's 21 could be reduced to 5.
Not all muslims agree with Suyuti.
Nor are they required to.

"5" a number you insisted was "0"

Your used to say that you could not understand how any true muslim could believe in the concept of internal abrogation.

Now you argue against that which you insisted was true.
Centuries of scholarship ?
Perhaps you should have the intellectual honesty to keep your opinion to yourself until you know what it is you are talking about.
Tafsir Ayet of the sword
(and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush), do not wait until you find them. Rather, seek and besiege them in their areas and forts, gather intelligence about them in the various roads and fairways so that what is made wide looks ever smaller to them. This way, they will have no choice, but to die or embrace Islam,



M. Khan the translator of Sahih al-Bukhari in his opening remarks makes it clear the 2:256 is abrogated by 9:5.

"Allah revealed in Sura Bara'at (Repentance, IX) the order to discard (all) obligations (covenants, etc), and commanded the Muslims to fight against all the Pagans as well as against the people of the Scriptures (Jews and Christians) if they do not embrace Islam, till they pay the Jizia (a tax levied on the Jews and Christians) with willing submission and feel themselves subdued (as it is revealed in 9:29). So the Muslims were not permitted to abandon "the fighting" against them (Pagans, Jews and Christians) and to reconcile with them and to suspend hostilities against them for an unlimited period while they are strong and have the ability to fight against them. So at first "the fighting" was forbidden, then it was permitted, and after that it was made obligatory."

More conformation 2:256 was abrogated at the time of Mohammads life
Something centuries of scholarship can do nothing about.

Volume 1, Book 8, Number 387:
Narrated Anas bin Malik:
Allah's Apostle said, "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.' And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally and their reckoning will be with Allah." Narrated Maimun ibn Siyah that he asked Anas bin Malik, "O Abu Hamza! What makes the life and property of a person sacred?" He replied, "Whoever says, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah', faces our Qibla during the prayers, prays like us and eats our slaughtered animal, then he is a Muslim, and has got the same rights and obligations as other Muslims have."
 
Ramadan 2010 Scorecard - Day 22

In the name of The Religion of Peace In the name of All Other Religions
Terror Attacks 172 1

Dead Bodies 816 1

Latest Offerings from the Religion of Peace
"He who fights that Islam should be superior fights in Allah's cause"
Muhammad, prophet of Islam

2010.09.04 (Ghazni, Afghanistan) - Sunni extremists behead a Shia businessman.
2010.09.04 (Kunduz, Afghanistan) - A child is among seven murdered by a Shahid suicide bomber outside a butcher shop.
2010.09.03 (Mosul, Iraq) - An imam is gunned down outside his mosque by Religion of Peace rivals.
2010.09.03 (Baghdad, Iraq) - Four Iraqis are shot or blown up around the country by Mujahideen.
2010.09.03 (Gumbashly, Azerbaijan) - One dead as a 'religious dispute' between mosque members results in gunfire.
2010.09.03 (Quetta, Pakistan) - Over sixty innocents are slaughtered when a suicide bomber targets a Shia procession.
Islam: Making a True Difference in the World - One Body at a Time
 
Ramadan 2010 Scorecard - Day 22

In the name of The Religion of Peace In the name of All Other Religions
Terror Attacks 172 1

Dead Bodies 816 1

Latest Offerings from the Religion of Peace
"He who fights that Islam should be superior fights in Allah's cause"
Muhammad, prophet of Islam

2010.09.04 (Ghazni, Afghanistan) - Sunni extremists behead a Shia businessman.
2010.09.04 (Kunduz, Afghanistan) - A child is among seven murdered by a Shahid suicide bomber outside a butcher shop.
2010.09.03 (Mosul, Iraq) - An imam is gunned down outside his mosque by Religion of Peace rivals.
2010.09.03 (Baghdad, Iraq) - Four Iraqis are shot or blown up around the country by Mujahideen.
2010.09.03 (Gumbashly, Azerbaijan) - One dead as a 'religious dispute' between mosque members results in gunfire.
2010.09.03 (Quetta, Pakistan) - Over sixty innocents are slaughtered when a suicide bomber targets a Shia procession.
Islam: Making a True Difference in the World - One Body at a Time
TROP.jpg
 
This.

See, this is the kind of right-wing propaganda that I'm sick of hearing. I just so happen to have a few friends who are of Islamic descent. Never have I once heard them discuss something of the likes of, "PRAISE BE WITH ALLAH AND HIS PROPHET MOHAMMAD! LET'S GO BLOW UP SOME INFIDEL-INHABITED CITIES AND SPREAD THE WORD OF ISLAM AROUND THE GLOBE!!"
Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal.

Muslim cleric calls for beheading of Dutch politician - Yahoo! News
Muslim cleric calls for beheading of Dutch politician

AMSTERDAM (Reuters) – A well-known Australian Muslim cleric has called for the beheading of Dutch anti-Islamic politician Geert Wilders, a newspaper said on Friday.

--

De Telegraaf, the Netherlands' largest newspaper, led its front page on Friday with a story on the speech by Feiz Muhammad.

The Sydney-born Muhammad has gained notoriety for, among other things, calling on young children to be radicalized and blaming rape victims for their own attacks.​

So you're going to use this to prove me wrong? You could use ANY sort of evil person of ANY religion to prove that the religion preaches intolerance. But at the end of the day, you and I both know that one bad seed doesn't make the entire apple bad, so to speak.
 
Yeah, those gentle Mooslums are a study in peacefulness. Unless they're cutting somebody's fucking head off or blowing themselves up. And I don't buy the 72 virgins bullshit either.
 
See, this is the kind of right-wing propaganda that I'm sick of hearing. I just so happen to have a few friends who are of Islamic descent. Never have I once heard them discuss something of the likes of, "PRAISE BE WITH ALLAH AND HIS PROPHET MOHAMMAD! LET'S GO BLOW UP SOME INFIDEL-INHABITED CITIES AND SPREAD THE WORD OF ISLAM AROUND THE GLOBE!!"
You do not have any friends who are muslims.
There is no such thing as Islamic descent.

Are you sure I don't have friends who are Muslims? I'm pretty sure that a dude from Turkey who has a thick Islamic accent is, well, Islamic.

Also, you can be OF Islamic descent. What if you have great grandparents that were Muslims?
 
See, this is the kind of right-wing propaganda that I'm sick of hearing. I just so happen to have a few friends who are of Islamic descent. Never have I once heard them discuss something of the likes of, "PRAISE BE WITH ALLAH AND HIS PROPHET MOHAMMAD! LET'S GO BLOW UP SOME INFIDEL-INHABITED CITIES AND SPREAD THE WORD OF ISLAM AROUND THE GLOBE!!"
You do not have any friends who are muslims.
There is no such thing as Islamic descent.

Are you sure I don't have friends who are Muslims? I'm pretty sure that a dude from Turkey who has a thick Islamic accent is, well, Islamic.

Also, you can be OF Islamic descent. What if you have great grandparents that were Muslims?

Bigot.

That dude from Turkey might have a thick accent, but that accent is not Islamic. The accent might be Turkish, or perhaps Kurdish, it might even be Greek for all I know, but it is definitely not Islamic.
 
You do not have any friends who are muslims.
There is no such thing as Islamic descent.

Are you sure I don't have friends who are Muslims? I'm pretty sure that a dude from Turkey who has a thick Islamic accent is, well, Islamic.

Also, you can be OF Islamic descent. What if you have great grandparents that were Muslims?

Bigot.

That dude from Turkey might have a thick accent, but that accent is not Islamic. The accent might be Turkish, or perhaps Kurdish, it might even be Greek for all I know, but it is definitely not Islamic.

Believe me when I say this: he is, in fact, Muslim. He goes to Mecca every year.
 
This.

See, this is the kind of right-wing propaganda that I'm sick of hearing. I just so happen to have a few friends who are of Islamic descent. Never have I once heard them discuss something of the likes of, "PRAISE BE WITH ALLAH AND HIS PROPHET MOHAMMAD! LET'S GO BLOW UP SOME INFIDEL-INHABITED CITIES AND SPREAD THE WORD OF ISLAM AROUND THE GLOBE!!"
Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal.

Muslim cleric calls for beheading of Dutch politician - Yahoo! News
Muslim cleric calls for beheading of Dutch politician

AMSTERDAM (Reuters) – A well-known Australian Muslim cleric has called for the beheading of Dutch anti-Islamic politician Geert Wilders, a newspaper said on Friday.

--

De Telegraaf, the Netherlands' largest newspaper, led its front page on Friday with a story on the speech by Feiz Muhammad.

The Sydney-born Muhammad has gained notoriety for, among other things, calling on young children to be radicalized and blaming rape victims for their own attacks.​

So you're going to use this to prove me wrong? You could use ANY sort of evil person of ANY religion to prove that the religion preaches intolerance. But at the end of the day, you and I both know that one bad seed doesn't make the entire apple bad, so to speak.
Just as your "few friends of Islamic descent" doesn't mean much, either, right?

But this seems to count for something, I'd say:

TROP.jpg


Doesn't look so tolerant, huh?
 
See, this is the kind of right-wing propaganda that I'm sick of hearing. I just so happen to have a few friends who are of Islamic descent. Never have I once heard them discuss something of the likes of, "PRAISE BE WITH ALLAH AND HIS PROPHET MOHAMMAD! LET'S GO BLOW UP SOME INFIDEL-INHABITED CITIES AND SPREAD THE WORD OF ISLAM AROUND THE GLOBE!!"
You do not have any friends who are muslims.
There is no such thing as Islamic descent.

Are you sure I don't have friends who are Muslims? I'm pretty sure that a dude from Turkey who has a thick Islamic accent is, well, Islamic.

Also, you can be OF Islamic descent. What if you have great grandparents that were Muslims?
What is an Islamic accent? :confused:

You do know, don't you, that Islamic is not a race, ethnicity, or language?

Don't you?
 
See, this is the kind of right-wing propaganda that I'm sick of hearing. I just so happen to have a few friends who are of Islamic descent. Never have I once heard them discuss something of the likes of, "PRAISE BE WITH ALLAH AND HIS PROPHET MOHAMMAD! LET'S GO BLOW UP SOME INFIDEL-INHABITED CITIES AND SPREAD THE WORD OF ISLAM AROUND THE GLOBE!!"
You do not have any friends who are muslims.
There is no such thing as Islamic descent.

Are you sure I don't have friends who are Muslims? I'm pretty sure that a dude from Turkey who has a thick Islamic accent is, well, Islamic.

Also, you can be OF Islamic descent. What if you have great grandparents that were Muslims?

Yes islam forbids having friends who are not muslims

You do not have any muslim friends.

33:36.
It is not for a believer, man or woman, when Allâh and His Messenger have decreed a matter that they should have any option in their decision. And whoever disobeys Allâh and His Messenger, he has indeed strayed in a plain error.

The Prohibition of Being Loyal Friends with Disbelievers


This Ayah discourages and forbids taking the enemies of Islam and its people, such as the People of the Book and the polytheists, as friends. These disbelievers mock the most important acts that any person could ever perform, the honorable, pure acts of Islam which include all types of good for this life and the Hereafter. They mock such acts and make them the subject of jest and play, because this is what these acts represent in their misguided minds and cold hearts. Allah said;
Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

The Prohibition of Supporting the Disbelievers


Allah prohibited His believing servants from becoming supporters of the disbelievers, or to take them as comrades with whom they develop friendships, rather than the believers. Allah warned against such behavior when He said,
 
You do not have any friends who are muslims.
There is no such thing as Islamic descent.

Are you sure I don't have friends who are Muslims? I'm pretty sure that a dude from Turkey who has a thick Islamic accent is, well, Islamic.

Also, you can be OF Islamic descent. What if you have great grandparents that were Muslims?
What is an Islamic accent? :confused:

You do know, don't you, that Islamic is not a race, ethnicity, or language?

Don't you?

An islamic accent is when someone sounds messed up in the head from having to wipe the poo from their bumhole with their hand and then go kiss dirty carpets 5 times a day (or do they wash the carpets between prayer sessions?)
 

Speaking of history, I love this part.

The specific crusades to restore Christian control of the Holy Land were fought over a period of nearly 200 years, between 1095 and 1291.

Can you explain to me why anyone felt it was necessary to restore anything if those Muslims were so peaceful that they never bothered to take it away in the first place?
Jihad begat crusades. 450 years of unanswered Islamic slaughter brought the wrath of the church and the west to the ME .
 

Speaking of history, I love this part.

The specific crusades to restore Christian control of the Holy Land were fought over a period of nearly 200 years, between 1095 and 1291.
Can you explain to me why anyone felt it was necessary to restore anything if those Muslims were so peaceful that they never bothered to take it away in the first place?
Jihad begat crusades. 450 years of unanswered Islamic slaughter brought the wrath of the church and the west to the ME .

That is the part everyone forgets. The Church was more or less willing to leave Muslims alone, but they started all these wars to conquer the world and had to be driven back. The UN did not exist back then, and countries did not care about something that was happening so far away.

Hence the Crusades.
 
Are you sure I don't have friends who are Muslims? I'm pretty sure that a dude from Turkey who has a thick Islamic accent is, well, Islamic.

Also, you can be OF Islamic descent. What if you have great grandparents that were Muslims?
What is an Islamic accent? :confused:

You do know, don't you, that Islamic is not a race, ethnicity, or language?

Don't you?

An islamic accent is when someone sounds messed up in the head from having to wipe the poo from their bumhole with their hand and then go kiss dirty carpets 5 times a day (or do they wash the carpets between prayer sessions?)
Yes, we've already established you're an idiot. But thanks for the additional confirmation.
 
Not all muslims agree with Suyuti.
Nor are they required to.
Yet you would have everyone believe that whatever opinion you present is representative of "true Islam". Never mind that you're a kafir outsider who lacks the intellectual capability and the knowledge of Islam to distinguish between what is true and what is not.

"5" a number you insisted was "0"

Your used to say that you could not understand how any true muslim could believe in the concept of internal abrogation.

Now you argue against that which you insisted was true.
More has happened to me over the past year than your deficient brain could ever hope to process. This discussion is not about me and your repeated attempts to make it so underscore your posts' utter lack of substance.

Centuries of scholarship ?
Perhaps you should have the intellectual honesty to keep your opinion to yourself until you know what it is you are talking about.
Sorry, kafir; reading internet articles and a few books in translation does not qualify you to speak with authority about Islam. Not a single Muslim has posted here whose knowledge of Islam doesn't exceed your shallow understanding by leaps and bounds.

M. Khan the translator of Sahih al-Bukhari in his opening remarks makes it clear the 2:256 is abrogated by 9:5.
In circles of educated Muslims, the amateurish scholarship of propaganda-spewing Saudi shills is subjected to a large amount of ridicule. Nonetheless, it seems to confirm some of your preconceptions and you act as if it has some sort of basis in fact in the vain hope that unthinking morons will give credence to your ridiculous, broad-brush portrayal of Islam. Nobody who can think independently is impressed.

More conformation 2:256 was abrogated at the time of Mohammads life
Something centuries of scholarship can do nothing about.
Produce a hadith that specifically confirms that this ayah is "abrogated."

Allah's Apostle said, "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.'

Unimpressive.

"It refers to fighting those who are waging war, whom Allah has permitted us to fight. It does not refer to those who have a covenant with us with whom Allah commands us to fulfill our covenant." - Ibn Taymiyyah, Majmu al-Fatawa 19/20​
 

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