My thoughts on the Islamic world.

[Saigon]

I'm a lucky guy.

I've been fortunate enough to have spent time in more than a dozen Islamic countries, usually for a month here or a month there, but adding up to a couple of years of flitting between Jakarta, Damascus, Tirana, Amman and Dhaka, anyway. I have been through the Golan Heights with Syrian soldiers, have been to the Hezbollah HQ and so forth as well.

So though I watch the news of flag-burnings and bombs like everyone else, I also have my own experiences of being in places like Southern Lebanon and the Golan Heights to balance against what I see on my TV.

My personal experience of Islam is terrific. I have found people in the Middle East in particular extremely welcoming, friendly and open. I have been invited into mosques, have spent late nights discussing religion, and even spent one day at the beach in Syria being quizzed by a family of thirty about everything from my wife's work to the workings of the EU. I have never experienced any bigotry or hostility towards Christianity, nor towards Europe. On the contrary, I have always been treated with respect and that has extended to my country and religion.

I have also met extremists, who I have found terrifying. They often struck me as sour, bitter people whose hatred had nothing to do with Israel or anything else. The politics is only an excuse to justify hatred and killing - much as it is in Christian countries like Liberia, Rwanda or El Salvador.

My conclusion (and this is backed by research) is that 90%+ of Muslims are our allies. They are normal people, they want jobs and good schools and Nike and Nokia and peace. They will never fire a gun in their life. But there is a small hard core who are our enemy, and who are everything people on this board say they are.

The key thing to understand is that no two Muslim countries are alike. Pakistan and Syria are as different as the US and Mexico, or Sweden and Italy. Some countries are moderate by nature and history (Tunisia, Malaysia, Oman) others extremist by nature and history (Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Nigeria).

What I believe we need to do - and what Obama has done very well - is to court the moderates. To offer carrots. This isolates the extremists, and allows moderate Muslims (who are often reluctant to criticise their own people publicaly, much as posters here are reluctant to criticise their own party) to take control.

Islam is not your enemy. Hatred is your enemy.

 

[BecauseIKnow]

That's very interesting but what extremists have you met? Any discussions with militants? It might be dangerous to admit that....because western countries can get people in trouble for that...especially in America

 

[BecauseIKnow]

So be careful....

 

[Saigon]

That's very interesting but what extremists have you met? Any discussions with militants? It might be dangerous to admit that....because western countries can get people in trouble for that...especially in America

I have met a few Hezbollah people in Lebanon, for a story I wrote on Southern Lebanon.

I went to the Hezbollah HQ in Bekaa Valley, to their centre in Kfar Kilim on the border with Israel, and to the SLA torture centre and prison just north of their. I was able to meet with and talk to people, but it wasn't easy or pleasant.

I thought they were insane, and a couple of times it was hard not to laugh in their face when they talk about their beliefs.

There are also a lot of nutters around Pigeon Rocks in Beirut. Hang out there and you'll meet them all!

 

[BecauseIKnow]

That's very interesting but what extremists have you met? Any discussions with militants? It might be dangerous to admit that....because western countries can get people in trouble for that...especially in America

I have met a few Hezbollah people in Lebanon, for a story I wrote on Southern Lebanon.

I went to the Hezbollah HQ in Bekaa Valley, to their centre in Kfar Kilim on the border with Israel, and to the SLA torture centre and prison just north of their. I was able to meet with and talk to people, but it wasn't easy or pleasant.

I thought they were insane, and a couple of times it was hard not to laugh in their face when they talk about their beliefs.

There are also a lot of nutters around Pigeon Rocks in Beirut. Hang out there and you'll meet them all!

In the USA you can't say that so I won't talk about my experiences with extremists in gaza....I had a lot of questions....i wrote an essay about gaza....but anyways....why wasn't it easy? What were they like?

 

[Saigon]

In the USA you can't say that so I won't talk about my experiences with extremists in gaza....I had a lot of questions....but anyways....why wasn't it easy? What were they like?

Wow...whatever happened to freedom of speech?!

My story was published, and I think it is also on my website, so any authority can check into my details fairly easily. I once came through immigration and saw the officer had a magazine with my story in it open on his desk!

To answer your question - Southern Lebanon is scary. I hired a driver and he took care of me. He knew the people you need to know, and knew who to pass a couple of bucks to. I remember taking photos of my old kibbutz from Kfar Kilim and a kid who looked all of 14 was pointing an AK-47 near my feet and started shouting "No photo! No photo!". A lot of roadblocks where they have some serious firepower and aren't very used to seeing westerners.

I can relax in Beirut, but not in Sidon or Nebatiya. I don't stay overnight there if I can help it, it's easier to head back to Beirut.

 

[BecauseIKnow]

In the USA you can't say that so I won't talk about my experiences with extremists in gaza....I had a lot of questions....but anyways....why wasn't it easy? What were they like?

Wow...whatever happened to freedom of speech?!

My story was published, and I think it is also on my website, so any authority can check into my details fairly easily. I once came through immigration and saw the officer had a magazine with my story in it open on his desk!

To answer your question - Southern Lebanon is scary. I hired a driver and he took care of me. He knew the people you need to know, and knew who to pass a couple of bucks to. I remember taking photos of my old kibbutz from Kfar Kilim and a kid who looked all of 14 was pointing an AK-47 near my feet and started shouting "No photo! No photo!". A lot of roadblocks where they have some serious firepower and aren't very used to seeing westerners.

I can relax in Beirut, but not in Sidon or Nebatiya. I don't stay overnight there if I can help it, it's easier to head back to Beirut.

Yeah I know it doesn't really work like that here in America...but that's normal to me because I'm used to Arabs...and pointing guns is normal there too.... But it's probably because they didn't have their faces covered....in gaza all them are masked and only come out near the night in the dark I was with my cousin we went to pick up food...and then he pointed down a street and said look those are Hamas militants...it was at night and in the dark....they try their best to be secretive

 

[BecauseIKnow]

How was Amman?

 

[Saigon]

How was Amman?

Amman is dull. It isn't an interesting city at all. It's kind of centerless and hilly and difficult to find your way around.

But away from there Jordan is perhaps the best travel destination in the entire Middle East - the Indiana Jones ruins at Petra, sleepin in the desert where Lawrence of Arabia lived at Wadi Rum, snorkeling at Aqaba and the desert castles close to Iraq....all wonderful.

 

[October]

I'm a lucky guy.

I've been fortunate enough to have spent time in more than a dozen Islamic countries, usually for a month here or a month there, but adding up to a couple of years of flitting between Jakarta, Damascus, Tirana, Amman and Dhaka, anyway. I have been through the Golan Heights with Syrian soldiers, have been to the Hezbollah HQ and so forth as well.

So though I watch the news of flag-burnings and bombs like everyone else, I also have my own experiences of being in places like Southern Lebanon and the Golan Heights to balance against what I see on my TV.

My personal experience of Islam is terrific. I have found people in the Middle East in particular extremely welcoming, friendly and open. I have been invited into mosques, have spent late nights discussing religion, and even spent one day at the beach in Syria being quizzed by a family of thirty about everything from my wife's work to the workings of the EU. I have never experienced any bigotry or hostility towards Christianity, nor towards Europe. On the contrary, I have always been treated with respect and that has extended to my country and religion.

I have also met extremists, who I have found terrifying. They often struck me as sour, bitter people whose hatred had nothing to do with Israel or anything else. The politics is only an excuse to justify hatred and killing - much as it is in Christian countries like Liberia, Rwanda or El Salvador.

My conclusion (and this is backed by research) is that 90%+ of Muslims are our allies. They are normal people, they want jobs and good schools and Nike and Nokia and peace. They will never fire a gun in their life. But there is a small hard core who are our enemy, and who are everything people on this board say they are.

The key thing to understand is that no two Muslim countries are alike. Pakistan and Syria are as different as the US and Mexico, or Sweden and Italy. Some countries are moderate by nature and history (Tunisia, Malaysia, Oman) others extremist by nature and history (Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Nigeria).

What I believe we need to do - and what Obama has done very well - is to court the moderates. To offer carrots. This isolates the extremists, and allows moderate Muslims (who are often reluctant to criticise their own people publicaly, much as posters here are reluctant to criticise their own party) to take control.

Islam is not your enemy. Hatred is your enemy.

Interesting observation. I've heard it said many times that Catholicism is around 200 years behind the time, and if that's true then I imagine Islam to be around 1000 years behind the times. What are your thoughts on that?

 

[Saigon]

Interesting observation. I've heard it said many times that Catholicism is around 200 years behind the time, and if that's true then I imagine Islam to be around 1000 years behind the times. What are your thoughts on that?

I was in Liberia last month, which is largely Baptist.

It is as violent, as chaotic and corrupt as any Islamic country.

It's easy to look at a world in which there are maybe 50 fairly disfuntional societies and complain about the 10 of those which are Islamic as if Islam was the common factor.

Poverty and a history of warfare are far more common factors than any one religion.

As a culture, if it can be called that, I do think Islam is outdated and needs to put distance between itself in 2012 and the Koran it is based on, particularly in terms of attitudes towards violence. I think Catholicism need to go through the same modernisng in regards to sexuality, but obviously less so in regards to violence.

 

[sealadaigh]

I'm a lucky guy.

I've been fortunate enough to have spent time in more than a dozen Islamic countries, usually for a month here or a month there, but adding up to a couple of years of flitting between Jakarta, Damascus, Tirana, Amman and Dhaka, anyway. I have been through the Golan Heights with Syrian soldiers, have been to the Hezbollah HQ and so forth as well.

So though I watch the news of flag-burnings and bombs like everyone else, I also have my own experiences of being in places like Southern Lebanon and the Golan Heights to balance against what I see on my TV.

My personal experience of Islam is terrific. I have found people in the Middle East in particular extremely welcoming, friendly and open. I have been invited into mosques, have spent late nights discussing religion, and even spent one day at the beach in Syria being quizzed by a family of thirty about everything from my wife's work to the workings of the EU. I have never experienced any bigotry or hostility towards Christianity, nor towards Europe. On the contrary, I have always been treated with respect and that has extended to my country and religion.

I have also met extremists, who I have found terrifying. They often struck me as sour, bitter people whose hatred had nothing to do with Israel or anything else. The politics is only an excuse to justify hatred and killing - much as it is in Christian countries like Liberia, Rwanda or El Salvador.

My conclusion (and this is backed by research) is that 90%+ of Muslims are our allies. They are normal people, they want jobs and good schools and Nike and Nokia and peace. They will never fire a gun in their life. But there is a small hard core who are our enemy, and who are everything people on this board say they are.

The key thing to understand is that no two Muslim countries are alike. Pakistan and Syria are as different as the US and Mexico, or Sweden and Italy. Some countries are moderate by nature and history (Tunisia, Malaysia, Oman) others extremist by nature and history (Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Nigeria).

What I believe we need to do - and what Obama has done very well - is to court the moderates. To offer carrots. This isolates the extremists, and allows moderate Muslims (who are often reluctant to criticise their own people publicaly, much as posters here are reluctant to criticise their own party) to take control.

Islam is not your enemy. Hatred is your enemy.

Interesting observation. I've heard it said many times that Catholicism is around 200 years behind the time, and if that's true then I imagine Islam to be around 1000 years behind the times. What are your thoughts on that?

and where have you heard that said? and how many times? i have never heard it said, myself. those are pretty broad statements about peoples that comprise perhaps 40% or more of the worlds population. there is a vast difference between sufi muslim and sunni muslim or filipino catholic and irish catholic.

people are people and if you oppress or deprive or starve them, they will learn how to react. religion really has very little to do with it...with anything.

i remember i had occasion to deal with some people from the congo, twice with individuals and once with a small group. in these cases there was a dispute with authority of some sort, not legal, and these people were just absolutely subserviaant, bizarrely so, when the person of authority came in the room...it was just weird,,,and then i figured out that a lot of their reactions, their culture, was molded by the belgium colinisation, which is somewhat legendary or its brutality.

 

[sealadaigh]

Interesting observation. I've heard it said many times that Catholicism is around 200 years behind the time, and if that's true then I imagine Islam to be around 1000 years behind the times. What are your thoughts on that?

I was in Liberia last month, which is largely Baptist.

It is as violent, as chaotic and corrupt as any Islamic country.

It's easy to look at a world in which there are maybe 50 fairly disfuntional societies and complain about the 10 of those which are Islamic as if Islam was the common factor.

Poverty and a history of warfare are far more common factors than any one religion.

As a culture, if it can be called that, I do think Islam is outdated and needs to put distance between itself in 2012 and the Koran it is based on, particularly in terms of attitudes towards violence. I think Catholicism need to go through the same modernisng in regards to sexuality, but obviously less so in regards to violence.

i think the best thing people can do with religion is leave it alone. you are going to have a percentage of nuts in almost any organisation, and that includes religionios organisations. you aren't going to modernise it and by its very nature it is outdated but it fills a void.

when you can't figure out an eclipse, you need a god.

but it has very little to do with anything real. that would be like saying the 1st indo-china war was a war between catholics and buddhists.

oh, and take it from me. catholic girls are very, very, very hot.

 

[Saigon]

people are people and if you oppress or deprive or starve them, they will learn how to react. religion really has very little to do with it...with anything.

i remember i had occasion to deal with some people from the congo, twice with individuals and once with a small group. in these cases there was a dispute with authority of some sort, not legal, and these people were just absolutely subserviaant, bizarrely so, when the person of authority came in the room...it was just weird,,,and then i figured out that a lot of their reactions, their culture, was molded by the belgium colinisation, which is somewhat legendary or its brutality.

Very interesting points about the Congo, and alo similar to my own experience. Tribes also play a major role there, and again there is a sense of subserviance towards an all- powerful master.

I disagree that religion plays no role in violent reactions, because some religions genuinely are peaceful. Both Bahais and Mormons are almost never violent at all, neither individually nor as groups, although they are the exception, not the rule.

I think some religions and some cultures are quicker to resort to violence than others, but I think the concluisions we can draw from that are limited.

 

[editec]

The HATERS are doing everything they can to see to it that those of us who do NOT HATE, will be forced to join one side or the other.

I cannot help but note that the HATERS of both sides (or of three sides if you want) of this debate all share one thing in common.

They are all followers of the primative forms of their various Abrahamic religions.

Basically the difference between the relgious haters who are Jews or Christians or Islams is rather nominal, because they are all on the same HATEFUL team.

Those folks target everybody who wants freedom and justice, folks.

They share more common traits than differences.

They hate mindlessly because they are control freaking cowards.

The FEAR human freedom because they NEED to feel like somebody is in control.

Why do they fear freedom?

Because they know what they would do if THEY were free.

They assume that everybody else is as fucked up as they are.

Given how fucked up they are, and given they think everybody feels like they do?

One can understand why they are so fearful.

 

[sealadaigh]

people are people and if you oppress or deprive or starve them, they will learn how to react. religion really has very little to do with it...with anything.

i remember i had occasion to deal with some people from the congo, twice with individuals and once with a small group. in these cases there was a dispute with authority of some sort, not legal, and these people were just absolutely subserviaant, bizarrely so, when the person of authority came in the room...it was just weird,,,and then i figured out that a lot of their reactions, their culture, was molded by the belgium colinisation, which is somewhat legendary or its brutality.

Very interesting points about the Congo, and alo similar to my own experience. Tribes also play a major role there, and again there is a sense of subserviance towards an all- powerful master.

I disagree that religion plays no role in violent reactions, because some religions genuinely are peaceful. Both Bahais and Mormons are almost never violent at all, neither individually nor as groups, although they are the exception, not the rule.

I think some religions and some cultures are quicker to resort to violence than others, but I think the concluisions we can draw from that are limited.

i think, if you took religion out of the equation of most incidences, wars, upheavels, etc. that very little would change. i think if some power guy wants to whip up the masses, religion is a useful tool, but in its absence, another tool, and perhaps a tool that more accurately reflects the situation, will be found.

if i am not going to kill a commie for christ, i am going to kill a commie for mommy, and failing that, i will kill them because all the countries in southeast asia will fall like dominoesto communism and threaten my way of life because the largest toy maker in my country makes the stocks for M-16s...or something like that...that ends up with some french cat smoking a fancy cigarette and drinking a stiff cognac in some downtown saigon bar that we forgot about a long time ago, and who forgot about us.

i don't know. i'm irish catholic, faithless but the sagart says that's ok, and i have met and dealt with people of all kinds of religions and i really don't see a lot of difference in them as people...and we discuss religions because i'm not shy. i really have to think that a whole lot of it has to do with culture and condition more than religion.

i think a lot of people in this country, the united states, really are justifying the reputation as ugly americans that some people have. i have never seen this country like this before, so ideologically divided. we may have lost our center.

 

[Saigon]

I totally agree.

Religion is one of a dozen factors - and a half-dozen crucial factors - which influence local cultures and their propensity towards violence.

To my mind poverty is the single leading factor, perhap followed by the local history of warfare and conflict. Religion and politics blend into that, as you say.

I totally agree also about this site and the ugly Americanism, but then we must remember that this site is atypical. I'd hate to think all Americans were as extremist and as ill-infomed as many of our number are here!!

 

[sealadaigh]

The HATERS are doing everything they can to see to it that those of us who do NOT HATE, will be forced to join one side or the other.

I cannot help but note that the HATERS of both sides (or of three sides if you want) of this debate all share one thing in common.

They are all followers of the primative forms of their various Abrahamic religions.

Basically the difference between the relgious haters who are Jews or Christians or Islams is rather nominal, because they are all on the same HATEFUL team.

Those folks target everybody who wants freedom and justice, folks.

They share more common traits than differences.

They hate mindlessly because they are control freaking cowards.

The FEAR human freedom because they NEED to feel like somebody is in control.

Why do they fear freedom?

Because they know what they would do if THEY were free.

They assume that everybody else is as fucked up as they are.

Given how fucked up they are, and given they think everybody feels like they do?

One can understand why they are so fearful.

well, this is the clean debate zone, but i don't mind unless you slip into personal attacks on individuals. there are rules though and you probably should try to follow them.

you've made some pretty broad statements and i am inclear as to whether you are assigning responsibility to all prectitioners of religion or if you are saying that all those responsible are practitioners of religion.

i know plenty of non-religious people with a lot of anger and hatred in them, and i know a lot of people who pursue athieism as fervently and dohmatically as the most evengelical practitioner of a faith pursues their god.

fearing freedom? i think people just have different needs and comfort levels. people fear the unknown...lol...thus sayeth the cat who voluntarily opted out of the rep system and sees everyone as they see him. still trying to get used to it. i live in a cute little starless world.

 

[sealadaigh]

I totally agree.

Religion is one of a dozen factors - and a half-dozen crucial factors - which influence local cultures and their propensity towards violence.

To my mind poverty is the single leading factor, perhap followed by the local history of warfare and conflict. Religion and politics blend into that, as you say.

I totally agree also about this site and the ugly Americanism, but then we must remember that this site is atypical. I'd hate to think all Americans were as extremist and as ill-infomed as many of our number are here!!

you and i agree on most things i am sure. we differ in style. i gotta go off every once in awhile to level the field and provide a reflection.

americans are great, the greatest, and they have always come through and done the right thing when it becomes clear what the right thing is. most are not extremest at all but, unfortunately, most are ill informed. our media has now becomed geared for sensation and not news or analysis. ii is funny...addictive. i found myself watching this show accidentally, my sister was over and the TV was on while we were talking, and it was some "big brother" show and i was getting into it. the wine she brought probably helped...lol...now everytime i tune something in and i see a commercial with that guy on the show, i start yelling at him, just because it is fun.

its confusing. maybe it is just that those who do know what is going on are fed up and dropped out. the kids are alright though. they are sharp and are paying attention. things are gonna be alright.

 

[Unkotare]

I totally agree also about this site and the ugly Americanism, but then we must remember that this site is atypical. I'd hate to think all Americans were as extremist and as ill-infomed as many of our number are here!!

Everyone can't be as special and "elite" as you, Intermediate.

this isn't the board for that. you should go elsewhere.

You never told me where you're from. Is it a hard question?