My plan for education

[rtwngAvngr]

I'm envisioning a pogrom-like ousting of all libs from public education. Then I advocate fitting them all with ankle bracelets that will notify authorities if they come with 100 yards of an impressionable mind.

 

[TN_Independent]

Originally posted by TN_Independent
rtwng,

The question is a simple one. How would you judge acceptable achievement?

I'll give you some help. Here are a few, but not all, possible ways to judge accountability. Which would you prefer? Would you use several?

(1) Administrative observations: competent, qualified personnel judge a teacher's effectiveness.

(2) Standardized testing of students before and after a teacher has taught them the subject matter.

(3) Testing teachers for knowledge of subject matter they are teaching.

Come on, pick one (or two, or three) or give me your own. Its not that difficult to take a stand, rtwng.

TN

I would actually welcome a response from anyone who has one, not just rtwng. Jump right in, folks.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Originally posted by TN_Independent
rtwng,

The question is a simple one. How would you judge acceptable achievement?

I'll give you some help. Here are a few, but not all, possible ways to judge accountability. Which would you prefer? Would you use several?

(1) Administrative observations: competent, qualified personnel judge a teacher's effectiveness.

(2) Standardized testing of students before and after a teacher has taught them the subject matter.

(3) Testing teachers for knowledge of subject matter they are teaching.

Come on, pick one (or two, or three) or give me your own. Its not that difficult to take a stand, rtwng.

TN

Standardized testing. quit grading on a curve. elimination of social promotion. quit blaming inequities in society for all bad test results. I've been taking a stand. When are you going to? What's your solution, besides breakfast and parental blame?

 

[TN_Independent]

Originally posted by rtwngAvngr
Standardized testing. quit grading on a curve. elimination of social promotion. quit blaming inequities in society for all bad test results. I've been taking a stand. When are you going to? What's your solution, besides breakfast and parental blame?

First off, spewing "oust all liberals" doesn't offer solutions. Its only political postering.

Finally, though, you give a few specifics....

<b>Standardized testing:</b> I gotta tell you, standardized tests are not going to tell you how effective a teacher is at educating students, only how well they can teach the test. I've seen it on more than one occasion; a teacher who is grossly inadequate has students who score very well on standardized tests - because they spend 170 days teaching only the 75-100 specifics that are on the test. Students do not learn to think or reason for themselves.

Also, what do you do with students who do not even make an attempt on the test. Is it fair to judge the teacher based on student results, even if the student simply randomly marks answers? I teach the lower level freshmen in our school. I have the 150 lowest level freshmen because the administration felt that I was the best person on our science staff to communicate and explain the material to them. I also have far less discipline problems and better classroom management than any of the other science teachers in my school. Many of these students, though, still randomly mark on standardized tests - should I be paid accordingly?

Accountability, then, even on standardized tests, must start with the student. The test must be tied to something that they value. If they have no stake in the outcome, they have no desire to do well. If you want to tie the success of the student to their passing the class, then we can agree that this is one measure that could be used. I'd favor that, assuming that it wasn't the only criteria used.

<b>Quit grading on a curve:</b> I'm not in favor of social promotion. It has, in large part, been the ruin of our system. At the same time, I don't want my 10 year old in a 4th grade class with a 17 year old drug pusher who is driving to school and hitting on his classmates for sex.

This is a difficult problem to solve, I think, if we keep to our current system of education. My solution would be to create alternative educational tracks, where those not suited for traditional schooling be put into vocational programs at a much earlier age - thereby giving them life skills and a trade.

<b>Societal inequities:</b> I don't think I ever mentioned, in any post, societal inequities. If you think it doesn't matter, though, you are living in a shell.

<b>Parental blame: </b> In my opinion, the single most important factor in whether kids learn or not is the parent(s). Students whose parents place an emphasis on education learn more than those who do not. That is a fact that I've witnessed for over 20 years. Dispute it if you must, and it isn't the only problem with education, but it is one of the main problems with our educational system today.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Originally posted by TN_Independent
First off, spewing "oust all liberals" doesn't offer solutions. Its only political postering.

No. It's a viable solution. sorry.

Finally, though, you give a few specifics....

<b>Quit grading on a curve:</b> I'm not in favor of social promotion. It has, in large part, been the ruin of our system. At the same time, I don't want my 10 year old in a 4th grade class with a 17 year old drug pusher who is driving to school and hitting on his classmates for sex.

This is a difficult problem to solve, I think, if we keep to our current system of education. My solution would be to create alternative educational tracks, where those not suited for traditional schooling be put into vocational programs at a much earlier age - thereby giving them life skills and a trade.

This is the single most important thing you have said, and the educational establishment will never accept it. Welcome to the vast right wing conspiracy.

<b>Societal inequities:</b> I don't think I ever mentioned, in any post, societal inequities. If you think it doesn't matter, though, you are living in a shell.

We've already established that you're different.

<b>Parental blame: </b> In my opinion, the single most important factor in whether kids learn or not is the parent(s). Students whose parents place an emphasis on education learn more than those who do not. That is a fact that I've witnessed for over 20 years. Dispute it if you must, and it isn't the only problem with education, but it is one of the main problems with our educational system today.

Recall that article who blamed parents for not instilling socialist values? I'll repost it again if it slipped your attention. This jackoff only wants parental involvement that conforms to his socialist agenda. That's my complaint.

I think we should do 100% privatization of education.

the current system is an utter failure.

 

[TN_Independent]

Originally posted by rtwngAvngr
No. It's a viable solution. sorry.

Recall that article who blamed parents for not instilling socialist values? I'll repost it again if it slipped your attention. This jackoff only wants parental involvement that conforms to his socialist agenda. That's my complaint.

From my experiences, I can only say that considering the folks with whom I have taught, on a daily basis, for the past 20 years this is not what most educators (folks actually teaching) want. To a person, I think, the people I work with now would be elated if every one of their kids' parents would simply make sure that their child was at school to learn the class material, period.

I think we should do 100% privatization of education.
the current system is an utter failure.

Vouchers? Or would you have each parent pay for his own child's education?

I have no problem with privatization, so long as the funding is equitable and there is no "selective" exclusion of qualified students.

One of the biggest drawbacks I see to privatization is judging effectiveness. It goes back to the same problems encountered in judging accountability of teachers in the classroom. On the other hand, to some extent the commercialization aspect of this would tend to identify the "best schools" from the "worst" (although much of the population can be fooled easily into seeing something that isn't really there).

 

[rtwngAvngr]

on vouchers: whatever, phased in all at once, doesn't matter to me. Regarding ability to gauge effectiveness, what is the value of that when we currently see we're number 17 in the world and apparently can't do anything about it.

As far as "pay teachers a decent wage and then we'll see", this is a bad attitude and alienates anyone who has ever worked in the private sector. This is not how the world works and education is not a jobs programs.

It doesn't matter, anyway, any major change in the system will never work, because libs don't want it to work. They DO see the public school system as their own socialist groupthink incubation system, and their own personal jobs program.

 

[mattskramer]

Let's have public financed school breakfasts, lunches, and dinners. Lets have the public schools assume more and more of the parental role. Nope. Poor families receive welfare and food stamps and all sorts of support. I support the US having a basic safety net, but this socialism can go too far.

 

[acludem]

To call having a program whereby we ensure that every student has eaten a decent breakfast socialism is both an incorrect application of the term and ridiculous logically. Socialism is the idea that the government should take a strong role in the economy by taking some state control of business and providing universal health care, etc. by having high taxes. Contrast that with Communism which is the idea that the government should own everything and ration it so to speak to the people. Social Democracy is the rule rather than the exception in Europe.

Logically it is folly to call a breakfast program that could be administered at a very low cost to taxpayers socialist. I asked an expert friend of mine, a woman who has been a second-grade teacher for 35 years, and she told me that disruptive kids are often the ones who haven't had anything to eat. They have the most difficulty concentrating because they are distracted by their hunger. That's why you have far fewer classroom disruptions in the afternoon, after everyone has had lunch.

acludem

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Originally posted by acludem
To call having a program whereby we ensure that every student has eaten a decent breakfast socialism is both an incorrect application of the term and ridiculous logically. Socialism is the idea that the government should take a strong role in the economy by taking some state control of business and providing universal health care, etc. by having high taxes. Contrast that with Communism which is the idea that the government should own everything and ration it so to speak to the people. Social Democracy is the rule rather than the exception in Europe.

Logically it is folly to call a breakfast program that could be administered at a very low cost to taxpayers socialist. I asked an expert friend of mine, a woman who has been a second-grade teacher for 35 years, and she told me that disruptive kids are often the ones who haven't had anything to eat. They have the most difficulty concentrating because they are distracted by their hunger. That's why you have far fewer classroom disruptions in the afternoon, after everyone has had lunch.

acludem

Breakfast is not the problem with education. The problem is the liberal mindset. Denying that is folly.

 

[TN_Independent]

Originally posted by rtwngAvngr
Breakfast is not the problem with education. The problem is the liberal mindset. Denying that is folly.

Ok, rtwng, let's say the liberals have all been removed from the educational framework. What should the conservatives do first - assuming of course that they are going to "fix" the current system rather than simply go private?

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Originally posted by TN_Independent
Ok, rtwng, let's say the liberals have all been removed from the educational framework. What should the conservatives do first - assuming of course that they are going to "fix" the current system rather than simply go private?

No social promotion whatsoever. No dumbing down the sytem so everyone passes. Decouple a teacher's salary from test scores, I understand the position that puts you guys in.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

When i keep mentioning accountability that's accountability for students.

 

[TN_Independent]

Originally posted by rtwngAvngr
No social promotion whatsoever. No dumbing down the sytem so everyone passes. Decouple a teacher's salary from test scores, I understand the position that puts you guys in.

OK, so we stop social promotion immediately and stop "dumbing down" the curriculum. This will immediately create a very high rate of failures in all grade levels. This will lead to high, very high, drop-out-rates. The drop-out rate, over time, will diminish somewhat - but it will always be higher than the present rate.

What to do with these educational failures. What plan should the conservatives have in place to deal with this before it starts?

I'm in favor of higher standards, btw... just curious how you'd have the conservatives deal with the fall-out from the implementation of higher standards.

As for teacher's salaries, I'm all for incentive pay - if someone can devise a method of doing it that makes it actually reflect teaching performance. I teach because I love kids and because I enjoy watching kids learn. I actually work at school because I am conscientious, and feel it is wrong to take pay for a job I'm not doing. There is no incentive for me to teach - I would make the same if I read the newspaper and showed videos all day. Pay me for the quality of education I deliver and I'd be "tickled to death".

 

[nycflasher]

Originally posted by acludem:

This is how I personally would at least start to try and fix the American system of public education:

1. Fix crumbling buildings - No one should have to go to school in a building that is falling apart. It is impossible to learn in a building that is coming apart all around you.
-Seems logical. If we look at the physical buildings as the foundation and then work from the outside in. Sounds like a good place to start. Kind of like changing the economy of a neighborhood, no one wants to live/work/shop in a dump.

2. See that every student, especially at the elementary level has had breakfast: This could be done very, very cheaply. I guarantee that if you offer Kelloggs or General Mills or Quaker a nice tax break, they'd be happy to provide cereal servings at a very low cost to schools. Dairies would do the same.
-I assume you mean in addition to lunch,which is already offered. Another good idea. starving child=useless brain

3. Give teachers a pay raise, more respect and higher standards. Right now the average teacher in America makes, on an hourly basis, less than the guy flipping burgers at your local Mickey D's. This is just wrong. You can't recruit good people to a profession when the opportunity to make money is almost nill. Teachers houdl be making a decent wage. They should also be encouraged to continue their education and training through grant programs, and salary incentive plans. Once these are accomplished, then you can raise standards. I firmly believe that teachers want to and try to do well. Give the profession respect and a decent wage and you will begin to draw better people into it.
-again, agreed.

4. Give control of the classroom back to the teacher. That means if a student is disruptive, the teacher has the right to remove them. That also means reducing class sizes so that teachers can more easily give extra help to a student who may need it, and to have time to deal with disruptive students one on one to try and find out what the problem is.
-uh-huh

5. Force parents to be involved in their children's education. Why should a teacher care about your kid's education if you don't? Parents should be legally required be involved. Schools with high parent involvement almost always perform better than schools where parents aren't involved.
-don't know about this one, hard to legislate and hard to enforce.
Perhaps schools could be more active in attempting to draw parents into their kids' learnign proccess. Perhaps more educatd people in general wouldlead to more educated parents who would want to be involved.

That's a start anyway.
-Great ideas.
acludem [/B][/QUOTE]

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Breakfast:No

Parental Involvement is a good idea, yet it is something that cannot be quantified. I don't want government deciding what constitutes positive parental involvement.

Infrastructure. As long as it's not a safety hazard and too hot or too cold. It doesn't matter.

Class size: I believe this factor has been trumpeted overly by the union.

The real problem is the liberals in education who refuse to hold students to standards. For their various addled reasons. i.e. the standards are racially/socially/economically biased and therefore it's wrong to hold people to them.

We also need to make it easier to be a teacher, but the union doesn't want to do this either. If you know something the kids don't and you can explain it, you should be able to teach.

Teaching is a natural function of being a human, education courses are not necessary.

 

[TN_Independent]

Originally posted by rtwngAvngr
Breakfast:No

Parental Involvement is a good idea, yet it is something that cannot be quantified. I don't want government deciding what constitutes positive parental involvement.

Infrastructure. As long as it's not a safety hazard and too hot or too cold. It doesn't matter.

Class size: I believe this factor has been trumpeted overly by the union.

The real problem is the liberals in education who refuse to hold students to standards. For their various addled reasons. i.e. the standards are racially/socially/economically biased and therefore it's wrong to hold people to them.

We also need to make it easier to be a teacher, but the union doesn't want to do this either. If you know something the kids don't and you can explain it, you should be able to teach.

Teaching is a natural function of being a human, education courses are not necessary.

rtwng,

Did you see my post above? I eagerly await your response.

Here is the post, btw:

OK, so we stop social promotion immediately and stop "dumbing down" the curriculum. This will immediately create a very high rate of failures in all grade levels. This will lead to high, very high, drop-out-rates. The drop-out rate, over time, will diminish somewhat - but it will always be higher than the present rate.

What to do with these educational failures. What plan should the conservatives have in place to deal with this before it starts?

I'm in favor of higher standards, btw... just curious how you'd have the conservatives deal with the fall-out from the implementation of higher standards.

As for teacher's salaries, I'm all for incentive pay - if someone can devise a method of doing it that makes it actually reflect teaching performance. I teach because I love kids and because I enjoy watching kids learn. I actually work at school because I am conscientious, and feel it is wrong to take pay for a job I'm not doing. There is no incentive for me to teach - I would make the same if I read the newspaper and showed videos all day. Pay me for the quality of education I deliver and I'd be "tickled to death".

 

[acludem]

The problem isn't "liberal" teacher refusing to hold students to standards. The real problem is the standards set are often unrealistic and "one size fits all". This puts rural and poor schools at a disadvantage. Also, the "standards" are usually placed into a test. Teachers have to teach to the test, so students have far fewer opportunties to explore topics that aren't on the test. Simply throwing the "L" word out neither solves the problem nor offers any real argument or alternative.

acludem

 

[nycflasher]

Originally posted by rtwngAvngr

If you know something the kids don't and you can explain it, you should be able to teach.

Teaching is a natural function of being a human, education courses are not necessary.

Yeah, you have standards. rolleyes:

You don't want to feed the kids and you want to let ANYONE teach them.:

 

[TN_Independent]

Originally posted by acludem
The problem isn't "liberal" teacher refusing to hold students to standards. The real problem is the standards set are often unrealistic and "one size fits all". This puts rural and poor schools at a disadvantage. Also, the "standards" are usually placed into a test. Teachers have to teach to the test, so students have far fewer opportunties to explore topics that aren't on the test. Simply throwing the "L" word out neither solves the problem nor offers any real argument or alternative.

acludem

No argument from me, acludem. Blaming educational problems on liberals is simply, in my opinion, political gobbledy-goop. It offers no solutions to the problems.

While I do believe that some of the problems were, and still are cause by liberal viewpoints, no solutions are offered by simply "throwing out the liberals".

I am also old enough and wise enough to know that there are two sides to every issue. The answer is usually neither right nor left, but almost always somewhere in between. In younger days, I saw things as more black & white, but I now understand that very few things in life are that simple.