Muslims are our friends but Islam is the enemy of Western Civilization?

[José]

Originally posted by Mr. Fitnah
Still hoping for an answer.

Wake up and smell the coffe, Fitnah. This debate ended the moment I posted my two devastating, earth-shattering messages (511 and 512).

In the long term, theocracies of any stripe DO NOT POSE THE SLIGHTEST THREAT to the secular, democratic world because this political system is just a anachronic, jurassic relic of the agrarian civilisations of the Neolitic Age that already went the way of the Dodo in the overwhelming majority of human societies.

For the historically challenged: Agrarian societies were societies whose wealthy depended primarily on agriculture (Examples: Mesopotamia, Ancient Egypt and China, Roman Empire, Medieval Europe, etc, etc...).

The mere idea of the modern techno-scientific industrial civilisation turning back the clock to the 12th century and adopting political systems based on religious superstition is as absurd as a return to the way of life of prehistoric hunter-gatherer societies. Only illiterate simpletons can seriously entertain this thought.

IN THE LONG TERM, muslim theocracies have an unavoidable rendezvous with the dustbin of History and there's nothing muslim theocrats can do about it.

But as Foxfyre and Ghook rightly pointed out, this does not mean in any way that the free word should let its guard down and ignore the short term threat this totalitarian ideology poses to specific countries around the world.

 

[Ropey]

But as Foxfyre and Ghook rightly pointed out, this does not mean in any way that the free word should let its guard down and ignore the short term threat this totalitarian ideology poses to specific countries around the world.

I tend to agree in the long term Jose, even though I find your posts a bit narcissistic your premise is basically mine when talking with enlightened people who see further.

Otherwise I just stay in the present and discuss short term because that's where wars start.

Those who learn to use utensils will not go back to using their hands. Once people get the taste of knowledge and freedom (and this desire can not be stopped, only held back in the short term) they will demand.

The Dark Ages were not really dark. We have only the moment to deal with. The people will demand ....

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Originally posted by Mr. Fitnah
Still hoping for an answer.

Wake up and smell the coffe, Fitnah. This debate ended the moment I posted my two devastating, earth-shattering messages (511 and 512).

In the long term, theocracies of any stripe DO NOT POSE THE SLIGHTEST THREAT to the secular, democratic world because this political system is just a anachronic, jurassic relic of the agrarian civilisations of the Neolitic Age that already went the way of the Dodo in the overwhelming majority of human societies.

For the historically challenged: Agrarian societies were societies whose wealthy depended primarily on agriculture (Examples: Mesopotamia, Ancient Egypt and China, Roman Empire, Medieval Europe, etc, etc...).

The mere idea of the modern techno-scientific industrial civilisation turning back the clock to the 12th century and adopting political systems based on religious superstition is as absurd as a return to the way of life of prehistoric hunter-gatherer societies. Only illiterate simpletons can seriously entertain this thought.

IN THE LONG TERM, muslim theocracies have an unavoidable rendezvous with the dustbin of History and there's nothing muslim theocrats can do about it.

But as Foxfyre and Ghook rightly pointed out, this does not mean in any way that the free word should let its guard down and ignore the short term threat this totalitarian ideology poses to specific countries around the world.

I like wish full thinking as much as the next guy.
You are of course wrong.
When it comes to policy I dont want the government to act as if some big guy in the sky is going to rescue US from people who do not care for technology or western culture.
Im sure your future would be affected by one EMP device.
I know Islamic fundamentalist would not notice the difference other then our general sudden lack of superior firepower.

 

[José]

Originally posted by Mr. Fitnah
I like wish full thinking as much as the next guy.
You are of course wrong.
When it comes to policy I dont want the government to act as if some big guy in the sky is going to rescue US from people who do not care for technology or western culture.
Im sure your future would be affected by one EMP device.
I know Islamic fundamentalist would not notice the difference other then our general sudden lack of superior firepower.

Where in hell have I said we should sit on our asses and hope the bearded one up in the sky will protect the free world? I said the exact opposite: keep a close eye on islamic fundamentalism, fight it when and where it is necessary and wait for History to run its course...

The West could never convince the soviets and the chinese that comunism was a totalitarian ideology that stifled human freedom and creativity being therefore at odds with the modern industrial society. All the free world could do was keep the communist advance in check.

The course of human history (materialised in the growing inadequacy of the soviet and chinese economy to generate vibrant, inventive industrial societies) eventually did the trick.

Similarly, the most brilliant sociologists, historians and political scientists cannot convince the governments as well as millions of individuals in Saudi Arabia, Iran etc... that theocracy is an equally totalitarian and archaic political ideology totally incompatible with the modern industrial civilisation.

Once again all the West can do is recognise the threat, do all it can to shield itself from it and wait for History to do the convincing.

Ultimately, this authoritarian ideology will be defeated not by the US army but by the sheer passage of time just like the one that preceded it.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

The west will not recognize the threat,
the economy is collapsing world wide and most people
could not feed themselves with out a microwave.
When the lights go out, so does your dream.

 

[José]

Originally posted by Ropey
I tend to agree in the long term Jose, even though I find your posts a bit narcissistic your premise is basically mine when talking with enlightened people who see further.

Ropey, my man, truer words were never spoken. I urgently need to get a hold of this giant, inflated ego of mine.

But I'm glad to see you agree with the gist of my post.

You see... Many people say: "Well José, theocracies are still going strong with around half a dozens countries following strict interpretations of Sharia."

To them I say:

So what?? Millions of people lived under comunism just a few decades ago and you still have a fully fledged stalinist state in the korean peninsula threatening world peace but no one in their right mind will say that stalinist states will shape the future of world history.

The course of the evolution of human societies does not occur uniformly, in tandem. I can point to dozens of stone age societies still surviving in some remote areas of the Amazon Basin and New Guinea. Does this mean that makind is heading towards hunter-gatherer socities of the Paleolithic Age?

All those human societies based on hunting and gathering, comunism and theocracy are just decaying leftovers from an age and ideology whose time has long passed.

OK, now back to discussing the here and now.

 

[José]

Originally posted by Mr. Fitnah
The west will not recognize the threat,
the economy is collapsing world wide and most people
could not feed themselves with out a microwave.
When the lights go out, so does your dream.

LOL

Why so pessimistic, Mr.?? You and I are old enough to remember the pessimists ranting and raving about the "imminent comunist takeover'.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

I have said many times, what was common knowledge 100 years ago is lost in the sea of history and political correctness.

These things being so, the recrudescence of Islam, the possibility
of that terror under which we lived for centuries reappearing, and of our
civilization again fighting for its life against what was its chief enemy
for a thousand years, seems fantastic. Who in the Mohammedan world today
can manufacture and maintain the complicated instruments of modern war?
Where is the political machinery whereby the religion of Islam can play an
equal part in the modern world?

I say the suggestion that Islam may re-arise sounds fantastic_but
this is only because men are always powerfully affected by the immediate
past:_one might say that they are blinded by it.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/HOMELIBR/HERESY4.TXT
The Great Heresies

By Hilaire Belloc
1938

The Great Heresies, by Hilaire Belloc

 

[Ropey]

But I'm glad to see you agree with the gist of my post.

It's not as though a generation will change multiple generation's movements anyway Jose . The modernization of Islam will come from without, not within.

Just as Christianity is not being modernized from within. Oh the Vatican makes the changes, but it is the external demands that force these changes. Just as Judiasm reforms from without, not within.

The incumbent wish the status quo as do the radical Islamic ones.

Multiple generations will see the Chinese demand freedom and Democracy (Tienanmen Square).

We see the beginning of this with Islam already. Look how long it took for the Vatican to begin to listen to external reason.

One can not hold back the tide. It is relentless and comes...

But I've held this view for over thirty years. It has not changed even with Fanatic and Radical interpretations of Islam coming from arenas where there is no freedom and who see their downfall, so choose to fight a losing battle.

So, maybe you agree with me.

The West could never convince the soviets and the chinese that comunism was a totalitarian ideology that stifled human freedom and creativity being therefore at odds with the modern industrial society. All the free world could do was keep the communist advance in check.

And look at Vietnam. The Khmer Rouge. Vietnam ended that genocide. Vietnam did not turn out anything like it was purported to become. Cambodia's Khmer Rouge and the response of Vietnam proved this clearly.

The deaths in an attempt to change Vietnam's path? Their path seems rather fine to me. No, it isn't formed on Western values, but all the deaths to stop Vietnam from becoming ...

Change comes from within, but is demanded from without. That's what changes the political perspectives of countries and ideologies.

Let's face it, Democracy is not about voting people in as much as it is about "Throwing The Bums Out."

 

[Ropey]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-l1y0gnSnI]All Things Must Pass[/ame]

 

[José]

Originally posted by Ropey
And look at Vietnam. The Khmer Rouge. Vietnam ended that genocide. Vietnam did not turn out anything like it was purported to become. Cambodia's Khmer Rouge and the response of Vietnam proved this clearly.

The deaths in an attempt to change Vietnam's path? Their path seems rather fine to me. No, it isn't formed on Western values, but all the deaths to stop Vietnam from becoming ...

Change comes from within, but is demanded from without. That's what changes the political perspectives of countries and ideologies.

Let's face it, Democracy is not about voting people in as much as it is about "Throwing The Bums Out."

I also have strong moral reservations about the Vietnam War, Ropey. I mean I wish the vietnamese people as a whole had chosen the path of an open modern society but I don't think the defence of this kind of free society was worth the price of turning a small civil war that would be over in a few months into a wholesale massacre that lasted for decades and slaughtered up to a million vietnamese specially when we take into consideration that nothing was achieved in the end.

I have the same feelings about the soviets fighting islamic fundamentalism in Afghanistan. not worth the death of hundreds of thousands of Afghans (and the soviets weren't even fighting for a modern open society).

With the evolution of the modern industrial civilisations towards greater and greater levels of complexity, hunter-gatherer societies, comunist states like NK, and theocracies like Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia and Iran will gradualy become so impoverished, outdated and isolated that that they'll willingly reform themselves in order to catch up with the rest of the human family. So you are right. They do the reform themselves but the pressure comes from the outside.

Unimportant aside: we all feel sorry for the future demise of hunter-gatherer societies because, unlike comunist or theocratic societies, they are no threat to anyone. I feel sorry to but on the other hand I'm not a TOTAL IDIOT to believe there will always be paleolithic societies, aka, Indians in the world.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Im glad you two think Islamic fundamentalism is no real concern, perhaps you can find another thread to enjoy.

 

[Ropey]

Im glad you two think Islamic fundamentalism is no real concern, perhaps you can find another thread to enjoy.

At the risk of being redundant to an already posted statement...

Where in hell have I said we should sit on our asses and hope the bearded one up in the sky will protect the free world? I said the exact opposite: keep a close eye on islamic fundamentalism, fight it when and where it is necessary and wait for History to run its course..

I think what is being said is that there is no worry for the great future as long as we keep our eyes in the present.

That's all Mr. Fitnah. We can stop Major Nidal Hassan clones. We can not stop the time and tide of humanity and it looks rather good for us is what is being said.

I tend to believe that and agree with Jose with regards to the future.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Well unfortunately before you are proven wrong by events, these types of hatesites will be closed down.