CDZ Mueller investigation. How will it pan out ?

Discussion in 'Clean Debate Zone' started by Tommy Tainant, Aug 20, 2018.

  1. Tommy Tainant
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    Tommy Tainant Gold Member

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    I have to say it is hugely entertaining and a credit to the US that it is taking place. Not many countries would allow this and if you are looking for an example of greatness in a nation then look no further.

    Obviously we dont know what Mueller knows and so we dont know what the end results would be. But lets get ur pipes out and sketch in what migh thappen.

    Scenario 1.
    Democrats dream. Trump found to have colluded with Russia. Cash trail from Moscow to Mar e Lago, money owed to zillionaires linked to Putin and many,many tapes that Donny would prefer Melania not to see.

    What would happen here ?

    Scenario 2
    Republicans dream. Trump completely vindicated. There is nothing to see here.

    What would happen here ?

    Scenario 3
    Bit of a mixed bag. Trump shown as naive and some associates as dishonest. Doesnt look good but not enough to convict.

    What would happen here ?

    Is it possible to charge and convict a President ?
    If 1 or 3 was the outcome could Trump continue as President ?

    What is going to happen ?
     
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  2. night_son
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    night_son Gold Member

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    No American is above the law. That said, in a perfect world we could take to the bank the natural and universal punishment of the guilty, and live without fear as innocents of any criminal accusation. Unfortunately, sometimes the innocent are prosecuted, convicted; lives are ruined and freedom suspending sentences imposed. Other times the guilty get off without much interruption to the criminal sprees they call careers.

    At present I am torn. Torn between complete acquittal and eventual conviction on bogus charges. From down here on the ground with the rest of my fellow human ants in the hill, craning my neck up to glimpse the rumblings in the American empyrean, it's quite a task not to be taken simply by the sensationalism of American political Titans locked in internal civil war of the mind and mundane. On every strata of intersubjectivity conceivable, powers are clashing at the highest level. Throughout the executive and legislative branches; with demigods of the intelligence and federal law enforcement agencies commanding their most elite shock cavalry to charge into the ideological and material breaches, we who are so low on the chessboard of American political power can only shrug our shoulders, pop more popcorn or run like hell to get out of the way of imminently falling colossi on either or both sides.

    Get back to you when the curtain is closer to closing.
     
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  3. Syriusly
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    Syriusly Diamond Member

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    Scenario 1- nightmare for America. Only worse scenario would be if it was true- and never uncovered.
    I truly hope this doesn't turn out to be true- but if it were true- then it needs to come out.

    Scenario 2- What everyone should be hoping for- that there is clear information that Trump and his campaign never conspired with Russia. What I hope for our countries sake is that Mueller completes his investigation and makes this conclusion.

    Scenario 3- The muddled information- pretty much what we have now- with both sides digging in partisan heels and presuming that everyone is lying.

    I would hope if Scenario #1 is true that Trump would be impeached or resign- but I don't know if Republicans could impeach Trump under any circumstances.

    Under 2 and 3 Trump remains President until at least the next election or he gets bored.
     
  4. Tommy Tainant
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    Tommy Tainant Gold Member

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    After today it looks like Mueller should have all of the evidence he needs. Maybe it will come to a conclusion very soon.
     
  5. FA_Q2
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    FA_Q2 Gold Member

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    Is it possible to charge and convict a President ?
    No, its not. The very idea is problematic. There is a process here - should the evidence be there then the president is impeached and convicted. Then citizen Trump tried in a court of law with Pence (if he is not implicated with Trump in the findings) taking over the presidency. This assumes that Pence does not pardon him (the idea that Trump can pardon himself is asinine).

    If 1 or 3 was the outcome could Trump continue as President ?
    If 1 is then no. 3 then yes. If there is not enough evidence to convict then there is no crime and no grounds at all to impeach or remove him from office.
     
  6. sakinago
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    sakinago Gold Member

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    Non of that has anything to do with Trump/Russia collusion. Everything with manafort was prior to trump, during the whole Crimea annexation debacle a few years ago. He’s a slim bag, not so different from the rest of the slim bag lobbyist, just more incredibly stupid. Although whose stupider, him or the people that hire him?

    Cohen has nothing to do with Russian collision, just paying hush money to porn stars. Few problems here with conviction/impeachment of trump. One is that trump has solid defenses against this, one is that he does this all the time (pay hush money) and that’s no different from non-political life. Another is that this is a personal matter, not a campaign matter, paying a porn star hush money so your wife doesn’t get pissed and name tarnished is not even hardley the same as purchasing tv ads or a tour bus for the campaign. This is the same defense I believe John Edwards used not too long ago and that worked for him. If it didn’t then things like getting a hair cut, or buying expensive makeup can be campaign expenditures. Yet another is that trump pays his lawyer so much because his lawyer has specialized knowledge on the law that trump (or any other lay person) doesn’t really know. Trump pays Cohen for that knowledge, to keep him out of legal trouble, it’s plausible enough that Cohens an idiot lawyer (he is), and is solely responsible for the violation (if there is one).

    A problem with impeachment here is precedent, with Edwards getting off, as well as the Obama campaign actually committing a violation (not reporting like 2 million in campaign donatations), and only getting a relatively small fine for that. So far all of this is very weak. Unless there is a tape of trump telling Cohen, go ahead, break the law, I don’t care, this needs to go away for the sake of the campaign. Even then, you’re still in murky waters with is that even a campaign expendarure? And I doubt Cohen has that tape, or else he would’ve been offered full immunity to turn it over. He hasn’t done so so far, so I’m gonna say probably not.
     
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  7. MarathonMike
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    MarathonMike Platinum Member

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    They finally realize that Collusion is not a crime and that they've been wasting everyone's time and money for 2 years. They call off the sham investigation and grovel for forgiveness from Donald Trump. He of course forgives them, being the magnanimous and great leader of America that he is.
     
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  8. sealybobo
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    sealybobo Diamond Member

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    Or dementia
     
  9. skye
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    skye Platinum Member Supporting Member

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    I hope it will pan out with Mueller piece of s**t ,going to jail.
     
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  10. sakinago
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    sakinago Gold Member

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    So many things wrong with this perception...
     
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