Moving beyond "fair"...

[VaYank5150]

I have always been against offering a path to citizenship for illegal aliens. However, since the mid Bush years, we (US Government) have been trying to build a fence between the US and Mexico and we apparently are too inept to even accomplish that.

This being said, while I still believe it is unfair to all those who have attempted to follow our rules to gain citizenship, if we truly do have +/- 12 million illegals working in this country, would we be better off getting them legalized and paying income taxes? Assuming at least SOME of the people employing illegals are also dodging payroll taxes, the possible revenue stream could be incredible and oh by the way, we could use the money.

I am not sure how to feel on this issue anymore. Does our current debt and the need to decrease it outweigh what is "right" and/or "fair"?

 

[VaYank5150]

No opinions?

 

[jwoodie]

Fairness does not need to be compromised in order to address this problem. Under current law, persons who have entered the US illegally must return to their home countries and wait 10 years before applying for a visa. Because this is an impractical option for these people, many of whom have lived in the U.S. for decades and have U.S. born children, an equivalent alternative should be established: Instead of returning to their home countries, these people should be given the option of proving self-support, without eligibility for public social services, for the same 10 years before being granted permanent visas.

 

[VaYank5150]

Fairness does not need to be compromised in order to address this problem. Under current law, persons who have entered the US illegally must return to their home countries and wait 10 years before applying for a visa. Because this is an impractical option for these people, many of whom have lived in the U.S. for decades and have U.S. born children, an equivalent alternative should be established: Instead of returning to their home countries, these people should be given the option of proving self-support, without eligibility for public social services, for the same 10 years before being granted permanent visas.

So....we have to wait 10 more years before they start paying income tax?

 

[martybegan]

Fairness does not need to be compromised in order to address this problem. Under current law, persons who have entered the US illegally must return to their home countries and wait 10 years before applying for a visa. Because this is an impractical option for these people, many of whom have lived in the U.S. for decades and have U.S. born children, an equivalent alternative should be established: Instead of returning to their home countries, these people should be given the option of proving self-support, without eligibility for public social services, for the same 10 years before being granted permanent visas.

So....we have to wait 10 more years before they start paying income tax?

No they get to pay income taxes, but they cannot go on the dole for 10 years. If they need support, they can get it in thier own country.

 

[VaYank5150]

Fairness does not need to be compromised in order to address this problem. Under current law, persons who have entered the US illegally must return to their home countries and wait 10 years before applying for a visa. Because this is an impractical option for these people, many of whom have lived in the U.S. for decades and have U.S. born children, an equivalent alternative should be established: Instead of returning to their home countries, these people should be given the option of proving self-support, without eligibility for public social services, for the same 10 years before being granted permanent visas.

So....we have to wait 10 more years before they start paying income tax?

No they get to pay income taxes, but they cannot go on the dole for 10 years. If they need support, they can get it in thier own country.

And would this plan ensure they paid taxes, at least as much as the IRS can force an actual US citizen to pay taxes? Will this fix the problem of employers paying them under the table since they are undocumented?

 

[AmyNation]

I read a study that suggested that we have more illegals here on expired VISAs then we do from crossing the border illegally.

We needed to be realistic about illegals. "self deportation" is not realistic. I would be for offering a path to citizenship to those already here, if it was actually coupled with immigration reform, including

secure borders
deporting people whose visas have expired
granting more work visas to employers who need them
reforming the way we process visa/citizenship applications because as it stands now, it can take years and you usually have to have a nice size bank account.

 

[jwoodie]

They would would have to pay FIT and SS taxes and would have to establish 40 qualifying quarters of SS earnings WITHOUT accruing any SS benefits from these quarters.

Also, they would be required to register for temporary visas; those who didn't would be deported and return after deportation would be made a felony.

 

[martybegan]

So....we have to wait 10 more years before they start paying income tax?

No they get to pay income taxes, but they cannot go on the dole for 10 years. If they need support, they can get it in thier own country.

And would this plan ensure they paid taxes, at least as much as the IRS can force an actual US citizen to pay taxes? Will this fix the problem of empoyers paying them under the table since they are undocumented?

Yes they register, and they get a form of limited work visa, with the limit being they have to be working.

They work, they stay, no work? bye bye.

Another path I would allow would be service. You spend 5 years in a public work corps. doing whatever we can think up of. At the end you get your green card, a stipend, you hopefully speak english fluently, and you have a useable skill.

 

[nodoginnafight]

My immigration plan is based purely on pragmatism.
They are here.
They are not going anywhere.
We need the money.

So I propose that we offer - for a limited time - that those who would like to become U.S. Citizens agree to pay a fine. No number set yet - but my position is that it shouldn't be so high that they just stay underground. I'm in favor of the fine because NOT to invoke at least some penalty is a slap in the face to those who made the sacrifices necessary to do it the right way.

As long as they are paying down the fine, they can have a work visa. When the fine is paid off - they can apply for citizenship.

We use the money collected from the fines to secure our borders against terrorist infiltration and to make sure we don't find ourselves in this same boat in 30 years.

Just MHO

 

[The Rabbi]

I read a study that suggested that we have more illegals here on expired VISAs then we do from crossing the border illegally.

We needed to be realistic about illegals. "self deportation" is not realistic. I would be for offering a path to citizenship to those already here, if it was actually coupled with immigration reform, including

secure borders
deporting people whose visas have expired
granting more work visas to employers who need them
reforming the way we process visa/citizenship applications because as it stands now, it can take years and you usually have to have a nice size bank account.

What you are describing is the Simpson-Mazzoli Bill of 1986, which did that. ANd it was a total failure.

 

[AmyNation]

I read a study that suggested that we have more illegals here on expired VISAs then we do from crossing the border illegally.

We needed to be realistic about illegals. "self deportation" is not realistic. I would be for offering a path to citizenship to those already here, if it was actually coupled with immigration reform, including

secure borders
deporting people whose visas have expired
granting more work visas to employers who need them
reforming the way we process visa/citizenship applications because as it stands now, it can take years and you usually have to have a nice size bank account.

What you are describing is the Simpson-Mazzoli Bill of 1986, which did that. ANd it was a total failure.

Could be because we still don't have secure borders, deportation of those whose visas expired or any real needed immigration reform.

 

[nodoginnafight]

I read a study that suggested that we have more illegals here on expired VISAs then we do from crossing the border illegally.

We needed to be realistic about illegals. "self deportation" is not realistic. I would be for offering a path to citizenship to those already here, if it was actually coupled with immigration reform, including

secure borders
deporting people whose visas have expired
granting more work visas to employers who need them
reforming the way we process visa/citizenship applications because as it stands now, it can take years and you usually have to have a nice size bank account.

What you are describing is the Simpson-Mazzoli Bill of 1986, which did that. ANd it was a total failure.

What she is proposing is nothing like Simpson Mazzoli. The main impact of Simpson-Mazzoli (and the reason it fell apart) were the I-9 form and penalties upon employers for hiring illegals. As a result - there were pushes for expanded work visas.

 

[VaYank5150]

I read a study that suggested that we have more illegals here on expired VISAs then we do from crossing the border illegally.

We needed to be realistic about illegals. "self deportation" is not realistic. I would be for offering a path to citizenship to those already here, if it was actually coupled with immigration reform, including

secure borders
deporting people whose visas have expired
granting more work visas to employers who need them
reforming the way we process visa/citizenship applications because as it stands now, it can take years and you usually have to have a nice size bank account.

What you are describing is the Simpson-Mazzoli Bill of 1986, which did that. ANd it was a total failure.

Could be because we still don't have secure borders, deportation of those whose visas expired or any real needed immigration reform.

Enforcement is lacking. If we are telling them there are consequences, there need to be actual consequences....

 

[The Rabbi]

What you are describing is the Simpson-Mazzoli Bill of 1986, which did that. ANd it was a total failure.

Could be because we still don't have secure borders, deportation of those whose visas expired or any real needed immigration reform.

Enforcement is lacking. If we are telling them there are consequences, there need to be actual consequences....

Enforcement is lacking because you cannot police 14M people without turning the US into a police state. Even Democrats balk at that. There is no way to secure the border without turning it into the Berlin wall. The Chinese cannot secure their border with North Korea, and it is much smaller. We cannot secure the border with Mexico, and we've tried.
The solution is to address the reasons why people come here to begin with. Namely to work higher paying jobs.
We need:
An instant visa with biometric info that costs about $50.
A laissez passer witrh the visa that allows free travel over the same border they person came in on.
Severe penalties for being here illegally as tehre's no excuse now.

 

[AmyNation]

Could be because we still don't have secure borders, deportation of those whose visas expired or any real needed immigration reform.

Enforcement is lacking. If we are telling them there are consequences, there need to be actual consequences....

Enforcement is lacking because you cannot police 14M people without turning the US into a police state. Even Democrats balk at that. There is no way to secure the border without turning it into the Berlin wall. The Chinese cannot secure their border with North Korea, and it is much smaller. We cannot secure the border with Mexico, and we've tried.
The solution is to address the reasons why people come here to begin with. Namely to work higher paying jobs.
We need:
An instant visa with biometric info that costs about $50.
A laissez passer witrh the visa that allows free travel over the same border they person came in on.
Severe penalties for being here illegally as tehre's no excuse now.

I grant, a totally secure border with Mexico is impossible. However there are steps we can take to secure it more than it is now. Hiring more border patrol and working more at catching those who traffic people over the border are two ways.

I think we can do a hellva lot more with expired visas than we do now however, again, I think a large part of that is man power.

As to your idea with the visas, it sounds interesting. I also think a crackdown and penalties with employers is the way to go, BUT we need to look at why they are hiring illegals and give them the number of work visas needed.

 

[The Rabbi]

We have increased border security and personnel every year for the last 30 years. It doesn't work. The border is too long and too remote in most places to police effectively.
We have criminalized hiring illegals. It doesn't work. And it makes it a hassle for everyone else.
Illegals come here to work. They come illegally because the legal paths to doing it are very long and very expensive. That is the fundamental problem. Make it easy to get in and out, easy to get a work visa, easy to track people so one guy is not Jose Gonzales today and Juan Rodriguez tomorrow. Track their employment and pay. They are not protected by the normal privacy protections citizens have. Tax their pay. Let them send the money home and let them go home however often they want. They will generally keep their families at home while they work as long as they can come and go freely.

 

[WillowTree]

I have always been against offering a path to citizenship for illegal aliens. However, since the mid Bush years, we (US Government) have been trying to build a fence between the US and Mexico and we apparently are too inept to even accomplish that.

This being said, while I still believe it is unfair to all those who have attempted to follow our rules to gain citizenship, if we truly do have +/- 12 million illegals working in this country, would we be better off getting them legalized and paying income taxes? Assuming at least SOME of the people employing illegals are also dodging payroll taxes, the possible revenue stream could be incredible and oh by the way, we could use the money.

I am not sure how to feel on this issue anymore. Does our current debt and the need to decrease it outweigh what is "right" and/or "fair"?

Chances are they don't pay any FEDERAL INCOME TAX so get out your checkbook. Most of those crossing the borders are illiterate and uneducated so don't expect them to be in the 53% of us who pay FEDERAL INCOME TAX,