Moses, the Egyptian Pharoah

Discussion in 'History' started by PoliticalChic, Jun 17, 2012.

  1. PoliticalChic
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    PoliticalChic Diamond Member

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    1. While the Bible may or may not be absolutely historically accurate, it does serve, by far, as the best account extant of some historical periods. Case in point, the Exodus. Is there any doubt that a slave population, the Jews, were present in large numbers in Egypt sometime during the second millennium BC?

    a. It is accepted that they came in conflict with their Egyptian masters, and fled in the exodus, led by a man they called Moses.

    b. But there is no Egyptian account of any such exodus. On the other hand, it wasn’t anywhere near as significant for the Egyptians as it was for the Jews…merely the flight of a group of slaves.


    2. A clue of the veracity of the tale can be found in Genesis, in which Joseph brings the Hebrews to Egypt. It is more than passing interesting that chariots are mentioned, not once or twice, but three times in Joseph’s story. And the Egyptians didn’t have chariots before the Eighteenth Dynasty, which means that Jews cannot have arrived in Egypt before the mid-sixteenth century, BC.

    a. Genesis 41:43; 46:29; and 50:9. BibleGateway - Quick search: chariot

    3. The Merneptah Stele records a victory over the tribe of Israel in Canaan, so the Exodus must have taken place by the time it was inscribed, which was around 1225 BC. Merneptah Stele - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



    4. Therefore, we have a timeframe of 1550 to 1225 BC, or sometime during the Eighteenth Dynasty. Eighteenth Dynasty of Egypt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    5. The Ptolemys commissioned Manetho, a high priest, to write a history of Egypt, and his King List is the basis for our understanding of the ancient dynastic structure. Osarseph - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    a. Manetho used the records at the temple of Amun in Heliopolis.


    6. Manetho identified a man called Osarseph, high priest to the pharaoh Amenhotep, as the biblical Moses.


    a. It seems that Osarseph built up a following among outcasts and lepers, a following so large that the gods came to Amenhotep, and ordered him to drive Osarseph from Egypt.

    b. But Osarseph drove Amenhotep out instead, establishing a 13-year reign before he was expelled!



    7. Still…clues, but nothing definitive: exodus of the slaves, someone named Osarseph, and a Pharoah Amenhotep.

    8. There were four Amenhoteps during the Eighteenth Dynasty. Manetho says that this one had a son called Ramesses….but this was a Nineteenth Dynasty name, so Manetho was clearly referring to one of the later Amenhoteps, not an earlier one.


    9. The thirteen-year reign is a problem, because there is no record of a Pharaoh Osarseph, or any Eighteenth Dynasty pharaoh, ruling for 13 years.

    a. There are several candidates, though. Ay and Horemheb: neither was of royal birth, one being a vizier, the other a general, before ascending. Ay reigned for four years, and Horemhem’s 19 years were fairly orthodox and prosperous.

    b. Smenkhkare lasted only a few months, and Tutankhamun died a youngster. So, none of those fit.

    c. One possibility is left: Akhenaten. He succeeded his father, Amenhotep the Third.


    10. Now, while Akhenaten ruled for 17 years, something different happened during his fifth year: he changed his name, and founded a new capital city of Akhetaten….now known as Amarna. He ruled at Amarna from 1345 to 1332. Thirteen years. Akhenaten - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    11. But in what view would Akhenaten be an interloper, not belonging? The answer is monotheism: a belief in one God. This sets him apart from all the other pharaohs. There was only Aten: the sun disk.

    a. Akhenaten closed the temples of the other gods, particularly Amun. He had Amun’s name exorcised form monuments all over Egypt.

    b. “Amenhotep married Tiye, the daughter of Yusef- Yuya (Joseph). It was decreed however, that no son born to Tiye could inherit the throne,there was a general fear that the Israelite relatives were gaining too much power in Egypt…. Because of his part Israelite upbringing, Amenhotep IV couldn't accept the Egyptian dieties and developed the notion of Aten - an omnipotent god with no image, represented by a solar disk with downward rays. Amenhotep changed his name to Akhenaten (Glorious spirit of the Aten) and closed all the temples of the Egyptian Gods making himself very unpopular.” Was Moses an Egyptian Pharoah?: Ahmed Osman Believes the Biblical Story Describes Akhenaten | Suite101.com



    12. Now, as for the name “Moses.” Does it make sense that an Egyptian princess would take an adopted child and apply a Hebrew name meaning ‘drawn out.’

    c. “The name Moses derives from the Egyptian word mose, meaning "offspring" or "heir", as in Tuthmose: "born of Thoth". “ Was Moses an Egyptian Pharoah?: Ahmed Osman Believes the Biblical Story Describes Akhenaten | Suite101.com


    So....Moses, an Egyptian pharoah....Israel descended from Egyptians.

    Could be?
     
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  2. dilloduck
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    dilloduck Diamond Member

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    Do you realize that you will be arrested for challenging current thinking in these matters ? :D
     
  3. Katzndogz
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    Katzndogz Diamond Member

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    It is not at all surprising that Moses appears no where in Egyptian history since the Pharoah had his name and all references to him removed from the historical record.
     
  4. dilloduck
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    dilloduck Diamond Member

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    Which one ?
     
  5. PoliticalChic
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    1. A character in the novel “The Moses Quest,” by Will Adams, rebuts the Osarseph/Moses theory: she sees the Bible as the folk history of a particular Canaanite people, and states that its historical validity should be assessed as scrupulously as any other folk history, not given special treatment just because many people today consider it sacred. Her lecture is illuminating. One should evaluate it. As follows:

    2. Stories in the Bible fall apart when there is no evidence that validate the stories. There is no evidence that the Jews existed as a distinct people in the time of Akhenaten, or even that they lived in Egypt in any great numbers….or that they left in some mass exodus.


    3. Many stories are borrowed from other, earlier cultures. There are recognizable traces of the Mesopotamian Epic of Gilgamesh, for example.

    4. Others seem to be variations on the same story, presumably because the writers of the Bible wanted to drum home their moral message: man makes covenant with God; man breaks covenant; God punishes man. Again and again we see the same motif. Adam and Eve evicted from Eden. Cain exiled for murdering Able. Lot’s wife turned to salt. Babel. Noah. It isn’t history, it’s religious propaganda. And it was constructed by the Jews after they had been defeated by the Babylonians, in order to convince themselves that they had brought the destruction and exile upon themselves by failing in their obligations to their God.


    5. Historians who have tested folklore against known history have found that the more current it is, the more accurate. But the further back one goes, the less reliable…with one exception: founding myths tend to have a seed of truth. For the Jews, the founding myth is the Exodus.

    6. The problem here is that, while there might have been some flight from Egypt…but the only evidence of such an exodus during the second millennium BC is that of the Hyksos. But the Hyksos were a full two centuries before Amarna…

    a. The Hyksos first appeared in Egypt during the eleventh dynasty, began their climb to power in thethirteenth dynasty, and came out of the second intermediate period in control of Avaris and the Delta. By the fifteenth dynasty, they ruled Lower Egypt, and at the end of the seventeenth dynasty, they were expelled. Hyksos - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    b. Amarna ( Akhetaten)- ‘established and built by the Pharaoh Akhenaten of the late Eighteenth Dynasty(c. 1353 BC), and abandoned shortly afterwards…’ Amarna - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



    7. And, how is it that the mass flight of the Jews left no imprint? Remember, we’re not talking of hundreds, or even thousands. The Bible refers to half the population of Egypt! Don’t you think somebody would have noticed? Do you realize that there is a stele recording the flight of two slaves from Egypt to Canaan? Yet, tens of thousands of valuable artisans upped and left, and not a peep??

    8. And wouldn’t there be a trace of this huge troop having spent 40 years in Sinai? After all, archaeologists have found settlements from pre-dynastic times…but from Exodus….nothing: not a coin, not a potsherd, not a grave, not a campfire. No traces, no Hebrews.

    9. And when there is evidence, it contradicts the biblical account. Jericho….if the city fell to Joshua’s trumpets, there should be evidence of destruction circa 1300 BC. But archaeological evidence is conclusive: Jericho wasn’t even occupied at that time. It had been destroyed in the sixteenth century BC, and left virtually abandoned to the tenth.

    a. “…in the 1950's, Kathleen Kenyon conducted further excavations at Jericho and concluded that the destruction of Garstang's City IV should be dated ca. 1550 B.C., not ca. 1400 B.C. In fact, Kenyon found no evidence at all of occupation of Jericho ca. 1407 B.C.” Is Bryant Wood's chronology of Jericho valid?



    10. No, the Bible wasn’t even written until after the Babylonian exile, circa 500 BC- over 800 years after the death of Akhenaten.

    a. ‘Exodus was compiled over a period of centuries, before it reached a more or less identifiable form, and was then redacted into substantially the form we know today. So, the answer to this question depends on the level of the book's evolution at which you would finally consider it to be 'Exodus'. Arguably, that would be somewhere around 500 to 600 BCE.’ When and by whom was the Book of Exodus written

    b. Exodus 9:3: "Behold, the hand of the LORD is upon thy cattle which is in the field, upon the horses, upon the asses, upon the camels, upon the oxen, and upon the sheep: there shall be a very grievous murrain."
    No one seriously disputes the historical fact that camels were first domesticated well after 1000 BCE and not widely used for transport until the seventh century BCE, …’ Ibid.


    Why the discrepancy?

    Is there an explanation for the Bible...?

    Who were the Jews of the Bible?

    Monotheism....Abraham? Osarseph? A common idea?
     
  6. dilloduck
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    ARGGG stop trying to expand my mind. You're going to mess it all up.
     
  7. tinydancer
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    yer talking the big Mose? The hello let's screw carbon taxes let's split it right down the middle Mose??
     
  8. PoliticalChic
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    I got MORE....watch out!!
     
  9. whitehall
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    whitehall Gold Member

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    The last thing the muslem brotherhood who are running Egypt today want to consider is that Jewish labor and engineering skills might have built the pyramids. What's the point anyway? Egypt antiquity enslaved generations of their own people to build monuments to the dead instead of caring for the living. Egyptian people lived in dirt for centuries while Christian civilizations built viable civilizations.
     
  10. konradv
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    konradv Gold Member

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    The most telling evidence that the Exodus was no more than the wanderings of a relatively small group that assimilated with the larger Canaanite culture, is the lack of archaeological evidence of a conquest of the indigenous population.
     

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