More not less taxes needed for economic recovery.

[ShackledNation]

I don't follow your "common sense". Are you suggesting that the government is somehow taking money out of the economy by taxing? Because I was under the impression that every single penny the government takes, it immediately spends back into the economy.

The OP is arguing to use the taxes for more infrastructure spending. Which would put the money right back into the hands of construction companies, architectural firms, their suppliers and their employees, not somehow magically leaving the economy.

Not all spending is equal. And government tends to spend money in a very inefficient way, producing less wealth than otherwise would have existed. Furthermore, bureacrats have to be paid to adminster the law. Plus, our government spends more money fighting wars overseas than boosting our economy.

First let me say that I'm not disagreeing that it is inefficient. It is. I've done work for the government before. We would laugh at their specs because it was unnecesary and charge them for the extra time that was needed.

But the wasted money doesn't really go anywhere. It stays in the economy. All the extra money they spent on these wasted extras went to our company. To our employees and to our owner. My point was, this wasted money doesn't dissapear out of the economy. You can argue that its not fair for the government to take money from one area and put it into another at their discression. But the idea that this wasted money somehow dissappears from the economy is bogus.

Nobody is saying the money disappears from the economy forever. If I insinuated that, I apologize, but I don't feel that I did. The money stays in the economy, but the point is it is not used as effectively as it could be.

Think about it. If there is no negative economic effect of spending money in unproductive ways, then why ever spend money in a productive way? You could always just say "its not wasted, down the line someone will get it." If that was how everyone thought, nothing would be produced. Here is a simple example to illustrate the point.

Bob has $10,000. He uses that money to produce goods, hire workers, etc. Those workers and the receivers of that money then obtain that money, and can spend it or invest it or whatever it is they will do with it just as before (which will in turn also result in the production of goods). So in the first instance, Bob is being productive and growing the economy. The workers and any other receivers of Bob's money then spend or invest the money, growing the economy as well.

Now the government comes in and takes the $10,000. Bob can no longer uses that money to produce goods. The government uses that money, but it is used (as you admit) in a less productive and efficient way. It is true that the money ends up back to workers to then be used just as it was by the workers of Bob. But clearly there is a negative economic effect. In the first instance of the use of money, there is less productivity than there would have been had Bob used the money. The error in your argument is "skipping" this first instance and looking only at the later owners of the money. But you can't do that. You have to look at all uses of the money, each use of which can lead to more or less productivity.

The only way government spending, then, can increase productivity is if you argue that it is more productive at using money than individuals operating in the free market. Some do argue that, but such arguments are often easily debunked. But if you say you agree that government spends money less efficiently, then giving more money to government to spend instead of the original owners of that money will in general lead to less productivity. Such a conclusion follows naturally from the initial premise that we both agree on (government spends money less efficiently).

 

[Norman]

I don't follow your "common sense". Are you suggesting that the government is somehow taking money out of the economy by taxing? Because I was under the impression that every single penny the government takes, it immediately spends back into the economy.

The OP is arguing to use the taxes for more infrastructure spending. Which would put the money right back into the hands of construction companies, architectural firms, their suppliers and their employees, not somehow magically leaving the economy.

Not all spending is equal. And government tends to spend money in a very inefficient way, producing less wealth than otherwise would have existed. Furthermore, bureacrats have to be paid to adminster the law. Plus, our government spends more money fighting wars overseas than boosting our economy.

First let me say that I'm not disagreeing that it is inefficient. It is. I've done work for the government before. We would laugh at their specs because it was unnecesary and charge them for the extra time that was needed.

But the wasted money doesn't really go anywhere. It stays in the economy. All the extra money they spent on these wasted extras went to our company. To our employees and to our owner. My point was, this wasted money doesn't dissapear out of the economy. You can argue that its not fair for the government to take money from one area and put it into another at their discression. But the idea that this wasted money somehow dissappears from the economy is bogus.

I think his point was the PRODUCTION that the money represents disappears. Not the money itself.

Same as if I said that I lost 20K when I in fact crashed my car.

 

[Katzndogz]

Not all spending is equal. And government tends to spend money in a very inefficient way, producing less wealth than otherwise would have existed. Furthermore, bureacrats have to be paid to adminster the law. Plus, our government spends more money fighting wars overseas than boosting our economy.

First let me say that I'm not disagreeing that it is inefficient. It is. I've done work for the government before. We would laugh at their specs because it was unnecesary and charge them for the extra time that was needed.

But the wasted money doesn't really go anywhere. It stays in the economy. All the extra money they spent on these wasted extras went to our company. To our employees and to our owner. My point was, this wasted money doesn't dissapear out of the economy. You can argue that its not fair for the government to take money from one area and put it into another at their discression. But the idea that this wasted money somehow dissappears from the economy is bogus.

I think his point was the PRODUCTION that the money represents disappears. Not the money itself.

Same as if I said that I lost 20K when I in fact crashed my car.

That's exactly what happens. The largest portion of tax money goes first to support the government itself. It pays government salaries, buys equipment for government workers and provides space for government work. The government produces nothing. There is no work product associated with the government. If left in the private sector, that same money would provide for business expansion and growth.

California is proposing an increase of a dollar a pack tax on cigarettes to pay for cancer research. The distibution of the money will have oversight of a panel of salaried political appointees. These political appointees will then need support staff. It will also generate bills providing furniture, equipment, supplies, utilities and space. Expecting that tax revenue from the sale of cigarettes will go down as people either stop smoking or find untaxed alternatives, the next expenditure will be to fund all the earlier programs set up to combat cigarette smoking who will suffer loss of revenue. By the time tax money funnels down to the research program itself there will be very little, if anything left to contribute to actual research. But, the government has grown by one more panel and committee. Meanwhile, all those dollars have been removed from public use.

 

[starcraftzzz]

You have to spend money in order to make money. Even if you are gambling you have to spend money. Every business venture Romney started, he had to have money to start it.
Radical Reich Wing Extremist should know that by now.

So taking said money from individuals will help them fast track to prosperity??

crazy people with crazy ideas

Government can't spend the money they have now wisely...
And you guys want to give them more.....
Unbelievable...

Government healthcare 40% more effect, welfare is 25% other insurance is 40%, SS I 25%, utilities are 30%. So like always you are wrong and cluess

 

[starcraftzzz]

Z Taxes create revenue that create jobs. .

if this was true no one would ever have to suffer through unemployment ever again. What really happens is that one job created with tax revenue is one job less that the private sector can not afford to pay for.

This is simple common sense.

Simply sense if you know nothing about economics or reaitly

 

[starcraftzzz]

The sad flat truth is that if the left had their way and punished the rich with confiscatory taxes the revenue gleaned would be merely symbolic and wouldn't fund the gigantic federal government more than a week. Once again lefties, government jobs do not stimulate the economy.

So according to you transportation, energy Production and educations do not stimulate the economy. THe problem here is that you are cluless and a retard

 

[Stephanie]

MORE NOT LESS TAXES NEEDED FOR ECONOMIC RECOVERY.

What got us in this mess was Bush’s tax cut for the rich and spending money we did not have. If Obama had let the tax breaks expire like Bush had intended it we would be in economic recovery. Taxes create revenue that federal and state Government need to run the system. Taxes create revenue that create jobs. Government spending is the only way the economy will recover but it has to have revenue to do that and revenue is taxes. We need to raise taxes all around. State, local, federal, income, payroll and sales taxes and any other way we can taxs. It has been proven that cutting taxes do not create jobs and jobs create revenue that pay down the deficit. When taxes are cut, Government spending is cut and Government programs are cut, cutting programs result in unemployment ( paid with money we don’t have) thus cutting revenue. And it results in more spending. Taxes pay down the deficit and create a surplus and prevent federal and state law offs. The reason unemployment is at 8.1% or higher is because of tax cuts. Use your God given brains and figure it out. Taxes create revenue, revenue pay the bills and prevent unemployment and prevent spending money we don’t have thus creating a deficit. You have to spend money in order to make money. Even if you are gambling you have to spend money. Every business venture Romney started, he had to have money to start it.
Radical Reich Wing Extremist should know that by now.

Worst economic mistake Obama made was extending the tax cuts.Working consumers create jobs when the pay taxes. Small busineses cannot create jobs without consumers even if they paid NO taxes at all. ONLY Federal Government can afford to stimulate the economy and best by infrastructure work. Cutting government programs cut workers and cuts revenue.
Feingold is right; it's past time to let these tax cuts expire.

If you don't like paying taxes . . .
If you don't like paying taxes . . .

All of these services are jobs and when taxes are cut it creates lay offs of people who provide these services and loss of consumers’ spending, thus loss of revenue.

dear gawd, save us from this fool who wrote this article

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

The sad flat truth is that if the left had their way and punished the rich with confiscatory taxes the revenue gleaned would be merely symbolic and wouldn't fund the gigantic federal government more than a week. Once again lefties, government jobs do not stimulate the economy.

So according to you transportation, energy Production and educations do not stimulate the economy. THe problem here is that you are cluless and a retard

actually they don't. Its a trick that fools a liberal every time. You tax money out of the economy; then put it back in and tell the liberals you are stimulating the economy. Its childish and pathetic but works on a liberal.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

MORE NOT LESS TAXES NEEDED FOR ECONOMIC RECOVERY.

What got us in this mess was Bush’s tax cut for the rich and spending money we did not have. If Obama had let the tax breaks expire like Bush had intended it we would be in economic recovery. Taxes create revenue that federal and state Government need to run the system. Taxes create revenue that create jobs. Government spending is the only way the economy will recover but it has to have revenue to do that and revenue is taxes. We need to raise taxes all around. State, local, federal, income, payroll and sales taxes and any other way we can taxs. It has been proven that cutting taxes do not create jobs and jobs create revenue that pay down the deficit. When taxes are cut, Government spending is cut and Government programs are cut, cutting programs result in unemployment ( paid with money we don’t have) thus cutting revenue. And it results in more spending. Taxes pay down the deficit and create a surplus and prevent federal and state law offs. The reason unemployment is at 8.1% or higher is because of tax cuts. Use your God given brains and figure it out. Taxes create revenue, revenue pay the bills and prevent unemployment and prevent spending money we don’t have thus creating a deficit. You have to spend money in order to make money. Even if you are gambling you have to spend money. Every business venture Romney started, he had to have money to start it.
Radical Reich Wing Extremist should know that by now.

Worst economic mistake Obama made was extending the tax cuts.Working consumers create jobs when the pay taxes. Small busineses cannot create jobs without consumers even if they paid NO taxes at all. ONLY Federal Government can afford to stimulate the economy and best by infrastructure work. Cutting government programs cut workers and cuts revenue.
Feingold is right; it's past time to let these tax cuts expire.

If you don't like paying taxes . . .
If you don't like paying taxes . . .

All of these services are jobs and when taxes are cut it creates lay offs of people who provide these services and loss of consumers’ spending, thus loss of revenue.

That explains why Greece is doing so well after all the tax hikes they just passed.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

MORE NOT LESS TAXES NEEDED FOR ECONOMIC RECOVERY.

What got us in this mess was Bush’s tax cut for the rich and spending money we did not have. If Obama had let the tax breaks expire like Bush had intended it we would be in economic recovery. Taxes create revenue that federal and state Government need to run the system. Taxes create revenue that create jobs. Government spending is the only way the economy will recover but it has to have revenue to do that and revenue is taxes. We need to raise taxes all around. State, local, federal, income, payroll and sales taxes and any other way we can taxs. It has been proven that cutting taxes do not create jobs and jobs create revenue that pay down the deficit. When taxes are cut, Government spending is cut and Government programs are cut, cutting programs result in unemployment ( paid with money we don’t have) thus cutting revenue. And it results in more spending. Taxes pay down the deficit and create a surplus and prevent federal and state law offs. The reason unemployment is at 8.1% or higher is because of tax cuts. Use your God given brains and figure it out. Taxes create revenue, revenue pay the bills and prevent unemployment and prevent spending money we don’t have thus creating a deficit. You have to spend money in order to make money. Even if you are gambling you have to spend money. Every business venture Romney started, he had to have money to start it.
Radical Reich Wing Extremist should know that by now.

Worst economic mistake Obama made was extending the tax cuts.Working consumers create jobs when the pay taxes. Small busineses cannot create jobs without consumers even if they paid NO taxes at all. ONLY Federal Government can afford to stimulate the economy and best by infrastructure work. Cutting government programs cut workers and cuts revenue.
Feingold is right; it's past time to let these tax cuts expire.

If you don't like paying taxes . . .
If you don't like paying taxes . . .

All of these services are jobs and when taxes are cut it creates lay offs of people who provide these services and loss of consumers’ spending, thus loss of revenue.

That explains why Greece is doing so well after all the tax hikes they just passed.

One of great ironies is that government policy to stimulate the USA housing market caused the current depression and liberals are advocating still more stimulation.

They are little more than stupid children who believe in government magic.

 

[starcraftzzz]

The sad flat truth is that if the left had their way and punished the rich with confiscatory taxes the revenue gleaned would be merely symbolic and wouldn't fund the gigantic federal government more than a week. Once again lefties, government jobs do not stimulate the economy.

So according to you transportation, energy Production and educations do not stimulate the economy. THe problem here is that you are cluless and a retard

actually they don't. Its a trick that fools a liberal every time. You tax money out of the economy; then put it back in and tell the liberals you are stimulating the economy. Its childish and pathetic but works on a liberal.

ROTFL i see so according to you doctors add nothing to the economy and neither does having electricity or being able to drive on a road
Get some pills and come back when you're not a lunatic

 

[starcraftzzz]

MORE NOT LESS TAXES NEEDED FOR ECONOMIC RECOVERY.

What got us in this mess was Bush’s tax cut for the rich and spending money we did not have. If Obama had let the tax breaks expire like Bush had intended it we would be in economic recovery. Taxes create revenue that federal and state Government need to run the system. Taxes create revenue that create jobs. Government spending is the only way the economy will recover but it has to have revenue to do that and revenue is taxes. We need to raise taxes all around. State, local, federal, income, payroll and sales taxes and any other way we can taxs. It has been proven that cutting taxes do not create jobs and jobs create revenue that pay down the deficit. When taxes are cut, Government spending is cut and Government programs are cut, cutting programs result in unemployment ( paid with money we don’t have) thus cutting revenue. And it results in more spending. Taxes pay down the deficit and create a surplus and prevent federal and state law offs. The reason unemployment is at 8.1% or higher is because of tax cuts. Use your God given brains and figure it out. Taxes create revenue, revenue pay the bills and prevent unemployment and prevent spending money we don’t have thus creating a deficit. You have to spend money in order to make money. Even if you are gambling you have to spend money. Every business venture Romney started, he had to have money to start it.
Radical Reich Wing Extremist should know that by now.

Worst economic mistake Obama made was extending the tax cuts.Working consumers create jobs when the pay taxes. Small busineses cannot create jobs without consumers even if they paid NO taxes at all. ONLY Federal Government can afford to stimulate the economy and best by infrastructure work. Cutting government programs cut workers and cuts revenue.
Feingold is right; it's past time to let these tax cuts expire.

If you don't like paying taxes . . .
If you don't like paying taxes . . .

All of these services are jobs and when taxes are cut it creates lay offs of people who provide these services and loss of consumers’ spending, thus loss of revenue.

That explains why Greece is doing so well after all the tax hikes they just passed.

One of great ironies is that government policy to stimulate the USA housing market caused the current depression and liberals are advocating still more stimulation.

They are little more than stupid children who believe in government magic.

plz name one of those policies. Oh you cant because your full of shit and a ranting lunatic.. not news

 

[Oddball]

MORE NOT LESS TAXES NEEDED FOR ECONOMIC RECOVERY.

What got us in this mess was Bush’s tax cut for the rich and spending money we did not have. If Obama had let the tax breaks expire like Bush had intended it we would be in economic recovery. Taxes create revenue that federal and state Government need to run the system. Taxes create revenue that create jobs. Government spending is the only way the economy will recover but it has to have revenue to do that and revenue is taxes. We need to raise taxes all around. State, local, federal, income, payroll and sales taxes and any other way we can taxs. It has been proven that cutting taxes do not create jobs and jobs create revenue that pay down the deficit. When taxes are cut, Government spending is cut and Government programs are cut, cutting programs result in unemployment ( paid with money we don’t have) thus cutting revenue. And it results in more spending. Taxes pay down the deficit and create a surplus and prevent federal and state law offs. The reason unemployment is at 8.1% or higher is because of tax cuts. Use your God given brains and figure it out. Taxes create revenue, revenue pay the bills and prevent unemployment and prevent spending money we don’t have thus creating a deficit. You have to spend money in order to make money. Even if you are gambling you have to spend money. Every business venture Romney started, he had to have money to start it.
Radical Reich Wing Extremist should know that by now.

Worst economic mistake Obama made was extending the tax cuts.Working consumers create jobs when the pay taxes. Small busineses cannot create jobs without consumers even if they paid NO taxes at all. ONLY Federal Government can afford to stimulate the economy and best by infrastructure work. Cutting government programs cut workers and cuts revenue.
Feingold is right; it's past time to let these tax cuts expire.

If you don't like paying taxes . . .
If you don't like paying taxes . . .

All of these services are jobs and when taxes are cut it creates lay offs of people who provide these services and loss of consumers’ spending, thus loss of revenue.

That explains why Greece is doing so well after all the tax hikes they just passed.

The patient obviously needs another blood letting!

 

[007]

How about a compromise, we raise taxes on all liberals!!!

How about we go one step further, and ship all the liberals/leftists to say some place they admire like North Korea or Iran, so that the conservatives can get to work restoring America back to it's greatness before the libs/leftists started screwing it up with their failed socialist/commie agenda.

 

[starcraftzzz]

How about a compromise, we raise taxes on all liberals!!!

How about we go one step further, and ship all the liberals/leftists to say some place they admire like North Korea or Iran, so that the conservatives can get to work restoring America back to it's greatness before the libs/leftists started screwing it up with their failed socialist/commie agenda.

Who knew that liberals not wanting to invade and go to war with countires like conserviatves meant they admired those countires
you must of been born yesterday

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Who knew that liberals not wanting to invade and go to war with countires like conserviatves meant they admired those countires
you must of been born yesterday

For cowardly anti American liberals there is nothing to fight for because they hate what America stands for. Liberals gave the worlds most evil man, Stalin, the bomb because they were communists. When McCarthy asked them if the were communists they simple lied and tried to shame the nation into thinking they had no right to ask liberals about their communism.

Now we ask!

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

That explains why Greece is doing so well after all the tax hikes they just passed.

One of great ironies is that government policy to stimulate the USA housing market caused the current depression and liberals are advocating still more stimulation.

They are little more than stupid children who believe in government magic.

plz name one of those policies. Oh you cant because your full of shit and a ranting lunatic.. not news

dear, liberal policy called for stimulating the housing market and ignoring the free market. Well they did stimulate it all right; it caused a bubble and then the depression we are now suffering through.
Do you want us to name another??

 

[Quantum Windbag]

That explains why Greece is doing so well after all the tax hikes they just passed.

One of great ironies is that government policy to stimulate the USA housing market caused the current depression and liberals are advocating still more stimulation.

They are little more than stupid children who believe in government magic.

plz name one of those policies. Oh you cant because your full of shit and a ranting lunatic.. not news

According to everyone on the left deregulation, which was a government policy, caused the housing bubble and the collapse of the market. did you forget your own talking point?

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

According to everyone on the left deregulation, which was a government policy, caused the housing bubble and the collapse of the market. did you forget your own talking point?

but you already know people on the left are on the left because they are stupid. Who could possibly say with a straight face that Fed Fred Fan did not cause the crisis despite an open policies to stimulate the housing market! Did the European housing market collapse too becuase of American deregulation?


our great newspapers on left and right agree it was liberal government that caused the current depression.

"First consider the once controversial view that the crisis was largely caused by the Fed's holding interest rates too low for too long after the 2001 recession. This view is now so widely held that the editorial pages of both the NYTimes and the Wall Street Journal agree on its validity!"...John B. Taylor
You may not have heard of the Federal Reserve system but it exists to inflate and deflate the currency supply through the housing market. They inflated too much for too long. This caused what they call a housing bubble. While the bubble was inflating all the big banks and many insurance companies bought bubble mortgages thinking they were sound rather than merely purchased or made possible by newly printed funny money. When the bubble deflated they all lost money on the mortgages. It would be analogous to the government making cars and giving them to GM so everyone could have a car. If GM got them by the ton and for very little money of course they would find a way to move them . This is essentially what the Banks did with the free money. In addition to the Federal Reserve System you had Fanny and Freddie which bought and guaranteed many of the mortgages so no one had to worry about them failing. Then you had CRA, FHA, Federal Home Loan Bank Board( 3% down payment loans) and several others that were designed to get everybody in their own home.

When the states tried to move against predatory lending by national banks they were blocked by the bank's federal regulator, the office of the comptroller of the currency, That empowered money lenders say Lynn Turner.

Just as significantly you had very badly conceived accounting rules that hid the problems from everyone until it was too late. Accounting rules are supposed to do the opposite, not move billions in potential liabilities off the balance sheet onto tiny footnote on the bottom of a page as happened at Citibank, or onto on sentence at the end of a 10-Q report as happened at AIG, or as generally happened with SIVs (structured investment vehicles). Then you had gov't rules from the last crisis, the Enron Crisis, the created mark-to- market accounting rules for this crisis that many believe greatly exacerbated this crisis.

Then you had the problem with the government backed ratings agencies that simply failed to rate the mortgage backed and related securities, properly. Sorry, it had little to do with Bush, but had everything to do with inane attempts by the liberal to regulate the free market!


Warren Buffett: "There are significant limits to what regulation can accomplish. As a dramatic illustration, take two of the biggest accounting disasters in the past ten years: Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae. We're talking billions and billions of dollars of misstatements at both places".

Now, these are two incredibly important institutions. I mean, they accounted for over 40% of the mortgage flow a few years back. Right now I think they're up to 70%. They're quasi-governmental in nature. So the government set up an organization called OFHEO. I'm not sure what all the letters stand for. [Note to Warren: They stand for Office of Federal Housing Enterprise Oversight.] But if you go to OFHEO's website, you'll find that its purpose was to just watch over these two companies. OFHEO had 200 employees. Their job was simply to look at two companies and say, "Are these guys behaving like they're supposed to?" And of course what happened were two of the greatest accounting misstatements in history while these 200 people had their jobs. It's incredible. I mean, two for two!

“Whatever regulatory changes are made, they will pale in comparison to the change already evident in today’s markets,” he said. “Those markets for an indefinite future will be far more restrained than would any currently contemplated new regulatory regime.”-Alan Greenspan

Courtesy A. Smith:FDR created Fannie.
LBJ Privatized Fannie - creating an "enron" like environment:
Greg Mankiw's Blog: Thanks, LBJ

Carter's Community Reinvestment Act - accelerated by Clinton - pushed risky loans:
Community Reinvestment Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Clinton pushed Fannie into Subprime - the most critical mistake:
Andrew Cuomo and Fannie and Freddie - Page 1 - News - New York - Village Voice

Even the NY Times figured this out: Fannie Mae Eases Credit To Aid Mortgage Lending - NYTimes.com

Bush and McCain attempted to reform Fannie on 17 occasions
Bush Called For Reform of Fannie Mae & Freddie Mac 17 Times in 2008 Alone Only To Have Dems Ignored His Warnings :: Political News and commentaries :: Hyscience

The risky subprime loans fueled another layer of risk - derivatives
https://www.istockanalyst.com/article/viewarticle/articleid/2947518

The LA Times reported on Clinton's "subprime" success in 1999:
Minorities' Home Ownership Booms Under Clinton but Still Lags Whites' - Los Angeles Times

 

[starcraftzzz]

One of great ironies is that government policy to stimulate the USA housing market caused the current depression and liberals are advocating still more stimulation.

They are little more than stupid children who believe in government magic.

plz name one of those policies. Oh you cant because your full of shit and a ranting lunatic.. not news

dear, liberal policy called for stimulating the housing market and ignoring the free market. Well they did stimulate it all right; it caused a bubble and then the depression we are now suffering through.
Do you want us to name another??

Jesus who knew that actions done in 2010 caused the housing bubble that started in 2002.