More Noahide horror

[rtwngAvngr]

More Noahide horror from this thread on Torah Forum.

Wow.

http://forums.torah.org/viewtopic.php?t=372&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15

I wrote that question;
It is scary to have something established that allows people of another faith to be executed.
As best as I can understand that, that is the penalty for idolatry under the Noahide courts of law. I understand the Tanach quotes that this could possible come under in times to come, but I am wary of man setting it up as an ideal of justice. I can understand someone saying that of course they cannot be set up yet, but even subscribing as to the potential ideal state, should lead to some questions.

I'll use the classic Christian question "Does Ghandi go to Hell?", but I will paraphrase it to be; "Should Ghandi be exectuted, and then judged by God as unrighteous?"

joy,
I kinda see it like this:
Religion is very important. It's the point why we're on earth and it dictates how society will function.
Judaism teaches that religion is supposed to teach the ideal way for all humans to act in order to maximize the earth's potential -- and to keep it from falling into dismal disarray. Halacha (torah law) represents the best decision based on the understanding of the totality of reality coupled with the proper perspective on moral values.

So, for example, let's take an extreme case which I think most people in the world would agree to:
Reality: a suicide bomber is going to blow up a crowd of children.
Moral Value: Killing children for no reason is bad.
Moral Value: Better that one murderer should die than 50 innocent kids.
Conclusion: Stop the suicide bomber, even if it means killing him.

Now, Judaism is based on G-d's understanding of reality and His moral system. (which, obviously, is perfect.) We are striving to follow it as it is the most true way to behave morally. (and because we're His, so we don't really have a choice anyways.)

When G-d says that Idolotry is one of the worst sins imaginable it must be that it, in reality, is an extremely destructive action. (comparable to the suicide bomber.) G-d wants to maximize earth's happiness and morality, and minimize earth's destructiveness and unease.

If we understood the destructiveness inherent in idolotry (i.e. the reality) then we would surely agree with G-d's decree because we probably share the same Moral Value as G-d here (namely, maximizing earth's potential for good).

Remember, sometimes being nice is bad. If we had the chance to kill Hitler (may his name be blotted out) or any of the leaders in his Killing brigade -- all of whom were responsible for the wanton murder of thousands of Jews before they were able to carry out their plans -- would we hesitate? Would there even be a question? Of course not! Anyone who decided to "be nice" to hitler would be an extremely naive, destructive, and evil person!

Now, I agree that idolatry is not the same as murder. For one thing, it doesn't look like it effects anybody else. However, it does.
Consider the following: Idolotry is, in essence, placing one's self above the rules of G-d. It is the process of molding society (or even just one's own belief system) to fit one's own desires. If everyone is following all 613 commandments, and one guy decides, "you know what, I'm not going to wash my hands when I wake up" (which is part of Jewish law), this would seem harmless; however, by doing that alone the person has made himself into his own god...

[Just imagine an employee who tells his boss, "ok, I'll do everything you say, but not XYZ". This person has just made himself into his own boss! Because an employee doesn't dictate what it is he'll do. (and what will be the boss's reaction!)]

... Once that philosophy begins to take hold -- whether in a person or in society -- the party involved loses an important grounding for morality. Now, anything he (/they) wish to do can be rationalized to meet their liking. what was before illegal can become legal; what was before evil can become righteousness.

This has happened many times in history. Returning to the case of Nazi's, we see this clearly. Hitler and other germans hated the jews. They rationalized that we are "subhuman" (an epithet repeated throughout history, even today in some muslim countries) and not only was their no crime in killing us -- it was every citizen's duty as a moral person! Killing Jews -- an obviously evil and detestable action -- has become the paramount form of righteousness. I'm sure many even felt that they were fulfilling religious obligations by doing so. they may have even felt "spiritual" every time they crushed a baby's skull.

All this is the result of the philosophy behind idolotry.

I know this doesn't answer all the question, but for me, this makes it much easier to understand why G-d has punishments (and sometimes strict ones) for sins.

because even though G-d is compassionate -- as we clearly see in the bible -- G-d is also Just -- as we see in the bible. (e.g. destruction of Egypt)

He does what needs to be done and He instructs us to do likewise.

Just like a father sometimes punishes his son for the ultimate good.

Proverbs 3:11-12 "My son, despise not the chastening of the L-RD, neither spurn thou His correction; For whom the L-RD loveth He correcteth, even as a father the son in whom he delighteth."

Proverbs 13:24 "He that spareth his rod hateth his son; but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes."

Proberbs 4:14-19

14 Enter not into the path of the wicked, and walk not in the way of evil men. (interestingly, "halacha" means "walkings", or 'path'.)
15 Avoid it, pass not by it; turn from it, and pass on. (I.e. any association with it is harmful.)
16 For they sleep not, except they have done evil; and their sleep is taken away, unless they cause some to fall. (They have agendas which are evil. they feel no rest until they carry out their designs and shape society to meet their wants.)
17 For they eat the bread of wickedness, and drink the wine of violence. (The results of their evil designs are wickedness and violence, and on these outcomes do they base their lives; they "sustain themselves" on it.)
18 But the path of the righteous is as the light of dawn, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day. (Those who are righteous will increasingly realize how all the false doctrines are evil -- and how the Torah is beautiful and perfect -- as it is contrasted to the "darkness" which is society's evil. It becomes increasingly clear as the philosophies are taken to their logical -- yet evil and absurd -- conclusions.)
19 The way of the wicked is as darkness; they know not at what they stumble." (I.e. They don't know where they went wrong. Evil people feel justified in their actions. They don't understand how they messed up, though the truth becomes known later. e.g. as with the nazis.)


Hashem loves all his creatures. Even when He drowned the Egyptians who were chasing after the Jews, G-d did not rejoice in their demise. He wants the best for everyone, however, societal good takes precedence over individual desires, and even individuals benefit from chastisement.

furthermore, we don't know how G-d will judge people after they die. All we know is what He told us we should do & what He told us is Good and what is Bad.

Remember, it's not a "man-made" system; it is G-d's system designed to ensure the ultimate good of the planet.

Christians and all idolators are considered ok to kill because they're like suicide bombers and hitlers.

 

[Joz]

societal good takes precedence over individual desires, and even individuals benefit from chastisement.

Christians and all idolators are considered ok to kill because they're like suicide bombers and hitlers.

Thanks. Just what I need on a Monday morning. :fu2:

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Another gem from leo. Same thread.

It is true that the killing done in G-d's name has been a stain on humanity's history, however, is it any different from the myriad of other philosophies which were almost right, but being not 100% correct made it cruel? What it boils down to, in my mind, is not that "killing because G-d said so" is bad, b/c as we discussed above G-d's laws are perfect. Rather, the problem is that these people were wrong!

See. Jews can kill in god's name because their religion is actually correct.

This is insane. Are you guys ready for this?

 

[no1tovote4]

Remember, sometimes being nice is bad. If we had the chance to kill Hitler (may his name be blotted out) or any of the leaders in his Killing brigade -- all of whom were responsible for the wanton murder of thousands of Jews before they were able to carry out their plans -- would we hesitate? Would there even be a question? Of course not! Anyone who decided to "be nice" to hitler would be an extremely naive, destructive, and evil person!

Why is it that they write a description this way: G-d... Then the name they want "blotted out" they actual spell out? This makes no sense to me.... *sigh*

Anyway, when was the last time you have heard of a Jew killing a Christian just for being a Christian?

 

[Abbey Normal]

My comprehension must be off today. Where does it say or clearly imply that it is OK to kill Christians?

 

[dmp]

my give-a-shit must be off today....

 

[Joz]

My comprehension must be off today. Where does it say or clearly imply that it is OK to kill Christians?

(Those who are righteous will increasingly realize how all the false doctrines are evil -- and how the Torah is beautiful and perfect -- as it is contrasted to the "darkness" which is society's evil. It becomes increasingly clear as the philosophies are taken to their logical -- yet evil and absurd -- conclusions.)

.....however, societal good takes precedence over individual desires, and even individuals benefit from chastisement.

I interpret it as, if that's what the situation calls for.............

 

[1549]

True Story:

A hasidic jew swerved into my lane and nearly crashed into my car today...

was the man actually attempting to kill me?

(insert Twilight Zone theme song now)




Jews are now cold blooded killers? I am going to put this little conspiracy into my "crock of shit" bag

 

[rtwngAvngr]

My comprehension must be off today. Where does it say or clearly imply that it is OK to kill Christians?

Go check out more of the thread.

The only penalty under Noahide laws is capital punishment. One of the laws is against idolatry. Christians are idolators in the jewish worldview. I'd go browse through that entire children of noah subforum abbey, unless you just don't want to see the awful truth.

 

[Abbey Normal]

(Those who are righteous will increasingly realize how all the false doctrines are evil -- and how the Torah is beautiful and perfect -- as it is contrasted to the "darkness" which is society's evil. It becomes increasingly clear as the philosophies are taken to their logical -- yet evil and absurd -- conclusions.)

.....however, societal good takes precedence over individual desires, and even individuals benefit from chastisement.

I interpret it as, if that's what the situation calls for.............

Christians believe in the Torah, if, as I understand it, it a name for the first five books of the Bible (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and
Deuteronomy).

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Anyway, when was the last time you have heard of a Jew killing a Christian just for being a Christian?

This is in the world to come. Olam Ha ba.

Moshiach, the jewish messiah, will both bring the jews back to observance and will force the noahides, or gentiles, to give up their false religions.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Christians believe in the Torah, if, as I understand it, it a name for the first five books of the Bible (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and
Deuteronomy).

Actually this evil crap is in the talmud, the oral tradition as it's called. ANd you may believe in the torah, but jews consider you an idolator.

Nobody believed hitler would actually try to kill all the jews either, even though it was right there in his writings.

I advise everyone to browse liberally through this forum. It's all right there. Plus google noahide yourself and read more. THis is not a joke.

 

[1549]

Go check our more of the thread.

The only penalty under Noahide laws is capital punishment. One of the laws is against idolatry. Christians are idolators in the jewish worldview. I'd go browse throught that entire children of noah subforum abbey, unless you just don't want to see the awful truth.

What region of the U.S. are you from?

My locale in Northern New Jersey has a relatively large population of jewish people. About 20 miles north of me is an extremely large hasidic area, and about half an hour away in New York City, there is an enormous jewish population (hasidic, orthodox, you name it and they are in NYC).

I can assure you that relations between Jews and gentiles here are fine. So why hasn't this plot to destroy Christian manifested itself perhaps the most jewish part of the country?

 

[rtwngAvngr]

What region of the U.S. are you from?

My locale in Northern New Jersey has a relatively large population of jewish people. About 20 miles north of me is an extremely large hasidic area, and about half an hour away in New York City, there is an enormous jewish population (hasidic, orthodox, you name it and they are in NYC).

I can assure you that relations between Jews and gentiles here are fine. So why hasn't this plot to destroy Christian manifested itself perhaps the most jewish part of the country?

The jews haven't had the power to do so, and have been feigning camaraderie with their inferiors until Moshiach establishes their theocracy for them.

 

[no1tovote4]

This is in the world to come. Olam Ha ba.

Moshiach, the jewish messiah, will both bring the jews back to observance and will force the noahides, or gentiles, to give up their false religions.

Well, according to the christians the Messiah has already been here, therefore you have no more worries. Nobody else is going to fulfill the prophesies because it has already been fulfilled. No worries, mate! Since you are a christian you have nothing at all to worry about.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Well, according to the christians the Messiah has already been here, therefore you have no more worries. Nobody else is going to fulfill the prophesies because it has already been fulfilled. No worries, mate! Since you are a christian you have nothing at all to worry about.

Yes. But these are JEWS. They don't believe the messiah has been here even once. And even christians beleive he will come again anyway. How many pages of your pathetic dissembling are we going to go through today, Mason?

 

[Abbey Normal]

Well, according to the christians the Messiah has already been here, therefore you have no more worries. Nobody else is going to fulfill the prophesies because it has already been fulfilled. No worries, mate! Since you are a christian you have nothing at all to worry about.

You remind me of a bit of my husband, No1. I'll bet everyone likes you.

 

[Joz]

Christians believe in the Torah, if, as I understand it, it a name for the first five books of the Bible (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy).

But not exactly the same way.


Women and Torah reading
Some Orthodox congregations have added all-female prayer groups where women are permitted to read.....The argument involved is controversial and most Orthodox authorities and organizations do not agree with it.


The Torah is composed of two parts: the Written Law and the Oral Law....
There are 613 commandments. The positive commandments ('do'), numbering 248, are equivalent to the number of organs in the human body. The 365 negative commandments ('don't do') are equivalent to the number of blood vessels in the human body.
http://www.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=2153

 

[rtwngAvngr]

But not exactly the same way.


Women and Torah reading
Some Orthodox congregations have added all-female prayer groups where women are permitted to read.....The argument involved is controversial and most Orthodox authorities and organizations do not agree with it.


The Torah is composed of two parts: the Written Law and the Oral Law....
There are 613 commandments. The positive commandments ('do'), numbering 248, are equivalent to the number of organs in the human body. The 365 negative commandments ('don't do') are equivalent to the number of blood vessels in the human body.
http://www.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=2153

The talmud is more authoritative than the torah. It's similar to how in the catholic church they're supposed to go by whatever the priests say instead whatever they interpret for themselves.

"what are you gonna believe, me, or you're lying eyes?"

 

[no1tovote4]

Yes. But these are JEWS. They don't believe the messiah has been here even once. And even christians beleive he will come again anyway. How many pages of your pathetic dissembling are we going to go through today, Mason?

Look, either they are right or you are. You can't both be right. And if the christians are right, as you profess to believe that they are, the second time the messiah comes the Jews aren't going to be killing anybody. They'll end up in the place where people who don't convert end up. Either you believe the messiah has been here or you don't. Worrying about the Messiah coming and starting the Jews off on a killing spree is a waste of time if you actually believe he has already been here....

So, either you believe the messiah has been here and have nothing to worry about, or you believe he is coming... If you believe that he hasn't been here you are no Christian. If you are a christian then you clearly have nothing to worry about, they simply missed the chance at the boat, so to speak.