More National Guard records

[CSM]

I also learned in school how to make charts look good or bad. Once again nice try.

Just to set the record straight:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0901/p01s02-uspo.html

Please note the chart at the bottom and where it came from.

 

[CSM]

Series Id: LNS13000000Seasonal AdjustedSeries title: (Seas) Unemployment LevelLabor force status: UnemployedType of data: Number in thousandsAge: 16 years and over

Year Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec Annual
1994 8630 8583 8470 8331 7915 7927 7946 7933 7734 7632 7375 7230
1995 7375 7187 7153 7645 7430 7427 7527 7484 7478 7328 7426 7423
1996 7491 7313 7318 7415 7423 7095 7337 6882 6979 7031 7236 7253
1997 7158 7102 7000 6873 6655 6799 6655 6608 6656 6454 6308 6476
1998 6368 6306 6422 5941 6047 6212 6259 6179 6300 6280 6100 6032
1999 5976 6111 5783 6004 5796 5951 6025 5838 5915 5778 5716 5653
2000 5698 5853 5730 5483 5758 5648 5749 5861 5631 5540 5643 5641
2001 5997 6072 6136 6274 6227 6481 6583 7057 7151 7723 8020 8291
2002 8126 8184 8278 8578 8397 8384 8400 8335 8269 8363 8565 8698
2003 8428 8581 8519 8799 8957 9245 9048 8929 8966 8797 8653 8398
2004 8297 8170 8352 8164 8203 8248 8196 8022

This is from the U.S. deparment of labor as you can see unemplyment rose quite high between 2000-2004. sorry that it looks weird it didn't paste well.

Actually, it appears from your data that the unemployment rate overall is dropping as evidenced by the annual rate for 2003 and 2004.

 

[JIHADTHIS]

I wish I could debate longer but I must go. Have a good day everyone. Maybe I can get back here tomorrow I will see.

Another dime a dozen hit and run know it all

 

[tim_duncan2000]

Great Depression?!? What the hell are you talking about? We have had 10 straight quarters of economic growth, coming on the heels of the worst attack on American soil since Pearl Harbor.

Not only that, but then we all heard about stuff like Enron and how corporations cooked the books (probably had a lot to do with the tech boom [and then bust] in the late 90s). Considering all that, the economy is pretty good.

And regarding the laughable Great Depression comparisons, check this out:

In campaign speeches and on his Web site, John Kerry tells us that President Bush has “the worst economic record since the Hoover administration.”

Herbert Hoover, of course, presided over the start of the Great Depression in 1929. There have been eight post-1945 recessions. How many do you suppose were worse than the 2001 recession? All of them.

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cach...04b.cfm+"+all++of+them"+recession+worse&hl=en

The economy has created 1,500,000 jobs in the last year alone. And EVERYONE'S taxes were lowered under Bush's tax cuts.

Also, unemployment is at about the same level as it was during the Clinton administration (and lower when compared to some of the years under Clinton.

 

[Jimmyeatworld]

I have a job and I'm glad for it and I have health care but it costs me what I think a small family should cost. Please don't get hostil we are just having a friendly chat.

Okay, it's hard to tell, but I assume you are pushing for universal health care.

The benefits of universal health care is yet another exaggeration by the Democrats. Oddly, I think it's the one thing that the Clinton administration really, truly cared about, and they accomplished nothing.

The words universal health care are often thrown around politically, but rarely does anybody actually look at it's track record. The Soviet Union was probably the first government to have universal health care, in the end they had a declining life span and a rising rate of infant deaths. However, that terrible word "profit" had been eliminated, and that's what really matters, right?

The popular thing for people to do today is point at Canada. One questions that never gets asked is, "Why do so many Canadians come to the United States for medical treatment, but so few Americans go to Canada?" Could it be that we should look at what actually works rather than what sounds good? Could it be that, in reality, universal health care doesn't work in a capitalist society?

Medicine is just like anything else, competition to be better than the other guy is going to provide a better product. If we have total universal health care, we take away the competition, and that leaves us with inferior medicine. Plus, speaking of scare tactics, Dems like to throw around words like "uninsured Americans" to put fear in people. Fact is, people without insurance are treated in hospitals every day. The bottom line is medical care, not insurance.

Universal health care is a socialist idea, and Socialism by any other name is still Socialism. It has failed every where else, why do some insist it will work here?

 

[Jimmyeatworld]

CSM how is it going I like debating with you nice to see you here. Now where was I oh yes Bush was told to serve his term or be sent to Vietnam he did not and was not sent to Vietnam. Instead he is dishonerably discharged what a punishment what kind of metals did he get for being so brave. To bad Kerry couldn't have got out of the war then the Republicans couldn't cry about how Kerry has 5 metals and Bush has .

You are apparently new, but nothing about any of your arguments is new. We've been there, done that with all of this before. Instead of repeating everything, here's a few places right here on this board you can go.

Purple Hearts and Vietnam.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11274

Here's how some veterans feel about Kerry.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/forums/showthread.php?p=144861#post144861

A lot about Bush and the National Guard here.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11320&highlight=Bush+national+guard

Plenty on Kerry and Vietnam and such

http://www.usmessageboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10997&highlight=Bush+national+guard

There are more. I just get tired of seeing the same crap over and over.

 

[BlueGin]

I have a feeling that after Kerry and co get through with their Nat'l Guard rant,President Bush's fellow service men are going to come forward and blow their little fake AWOL charges out of the water. I was watching Hannity and Colmes either Monday or Tuesday night (the night Hannity had a guest speaker hosting for him). They were talking to a military officer who said he came forward to say that Bush was not AWOL. And that 6 other's did too but they had not been interviewed. Does anyone know how to find transcripts of this show? I looked on the Web page but couldn't find it.

 

[Merlin1047]

If this discussion has proved nothing else, it has once again highlighted the philosophical differences between liberal Democrats and conservatives in regard to government.

Conservatives basically see government as a necessary burden which should be kept to a minimum. Conservatives see service to the nation as a thing which is the duty of every American.

The far left, on the other hand, sees government as a resource to be mined. They are furious when they lose the power to help themselves to the incomes of others more productive or simply more fortunate than they. Ultra leftists see no reason to serve their nation, but believe that they should be served by it instead.

That is why the left is so stirred up about kerry's sinking campaign. They see Christmas being snatched away from them just as they had the gifts almost within reach of their avaricious little fingers.

 

[Jimmyeatworld]

If this discussion has proved nothing else, it has once again highlighted the philosophical differences between liberal Democrats and conservatives in regard to government.

Conservatives basically see government as a necessary burden which should be kept to a minimum. Conservatives see service to the nation as a thing which is the duty of every American.

The far left, on the other hand, sees government as a resource to be mined. They are furious when they lose the power to help themselves to the incomes of others more productive or simply more fortunate than they. Ultra leftists see no reason to serve their nation, but believe that they should be served by it instead.

That is why the left is so stirred up about kerry's sinking campaign. They see Christmas being snatched away from them just as they had the gifts almost within reach of their avaricious little fingers.

Democratic Party, circa 1961: "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country."

Democratic Party, circa 2004: "Ask not what I can do for my country, ask what my government can provide for me."

 

[liberal4now]

This raises the question as to why Bush withheld information about his National Guard record? Why? Because his military record is a joke. He dodged his responsibilities. Kerry, on the otherhand, fought in the war while Bush bought his way out of it. Bush's service in the National Gaurd is laughable.

 

[jimnyc]

This raises the question as to why Bush withheld information about his National Guard record? Why? Because his military record is a joke. He dodged his responsibilities. Kerry, on the otherhand, fought in the war while Bush bought his way out of it. Bush's service in the National Gaurd is laughable.

Who cares, nobody who voted for Bush in 2000 or who will vote for him this year care about his military record. It's Kerry who has made it the centerpiece of his campaign, and what a mistake that was. Mr. 3 and out only made himself look like the liar he is by pushing his service record.

 

[Avatar4321]

This raises the question as to why Bush withheld information about his National Guard record? Why? Because his military record is a joke. He dodged his responsibilities. Kerry, on the otherhand, fought in the war while Bush bought his way out of it. Bush's service in the National Gaurd is laughable.

Why do you guys continue try to make something out of nothing. Bush served honorably. Was honorably discharged. He served all his time as he has continually proved. He proved this about five times already. Read about his service:

http://www.hillnews.com/york/090904.aspx

The future president joined the Guard in May 1968. Almost immediately, he began an extended period of training. Six weeks of basic training. Fifty-three weeks of flight training. Twenty-one weeks of fighter-interceptor training.

That was 80 weeks to begin with, and there were other training periods thrown in as well. It was full-time work. By the time it was over, Bush had served nearly two years.

Not two years of weekends. Two years.

After training, Bush kept flying, racking up hundreds of hours in F-102 jets. As he did, he accumulated points toward his National Guard service requirements. At the time, guardsmen were required to accumulate a minimum of 50 points to meet their yearly obligation.

According to records released earlier this year, Bush earned 253 points in his first year, May 1968 to May 1969 (since he joined in May 1968, his service thereafter was measured on a May-to-May basis).

Bush earned 340 points in 1969-1970. He earned 137 points in 1970-1971. And he earned 112 points in 1971-1972. The numbers indicate that in his first four years, Bush not only showed up, he showed up a lot. Did you know that?

That brings the story to May 1972 — the time that has been the focus of so many news reports — when Bush “deserted” (according to anti-Bush filmmaker Michael Moore) or went “AWOL” (according to Terry McAuliffe, chairman of the Democratic National Committee).

Bush asked for permission to go to Alabama to work on a Senate campaign. His superior officers said OK. Requests like that weren’t unusual, says retired Col. William Campenni, who flew with Bush in 1970 and 1971.

“In 1972, there was an enormous glut of pilots,” Campenni says. “The Vietnam War was winding down, and the Air Force was putting pilots in desk jobs. In ’72 or ’73, if you were a pilot, active or Guard, and you had an obligation and wanted to get out, no problem. In fact, you were helping them solve their problem.”

So Bush stopped flying. From May 1972 to May 1973, he earned just 56 points — not much, but enough to meet his requirement.

Then, in 1973, as Bush made plans to leave the Guard and go to Harvard Business School, he again started showing up frequently.

In June and July of 1973, he accumulated 56 points, enough to meet the minimum requirement for the 1973-1974 year.

Then, at his request, he was given permission to go. Bush received an honorable discharge after serving five years, four months and five days of his original six-year commitment. By that time, however, he had accumulated enough points in each year to cover six years of service.

During his service, Bush received high marks as a pilot.

A 1970 evaluation said Bush “clearly stands out as a top notch fighter interceptor pilot” and was “a natural leader whom his contemporaries look to for leadership.”

A 1971 evaluation called Bush “an exceptionally fine young officer and pilot” who “continually flies intercept missions with the unit to increase his proficiency even further.” And a 1972 evaluation called Bush “an exceptional fighter interceptor pilot and officer.”

The question is, why is Kerry not releasing his military records? He is the one who is supposed to have the spectacular record. What is he trying to hide? He could have simply answered all the questions the swift boat veterans raised by releasing them. If Kerry is telling the truth then he needs to vidicate himself, not attack the veterans. But if his four months of service are important enough to base his entire campaign on i want to know about them.

 

[JIHADTHIS]

This raises the question as to why Bush withheld information about his National Guard record? Why? Because his military record is a joke. He dodged his responsibilities. Kerry, on the otherhand, fought in the war while Bush bought his way out of it. Bush's service in the National Gaurd is laughable.

Here's 1000, blasting a troll (how fitting)

You must feel like a total moron now with the dubious nature of the "withheld" records. Records from CBS of all places. Kinda hard to withhold forged documents that never existed in the first place........
Stay away from open windows on high floors on election night, the urge to fall out will be overpowering.:duh3:

If your going to try to run with the big dogs, at least be original and come up with something better then the DNC talking point of the day.


PS:Learn how to spell Guard

 

[liberal4now]

You are a prime example of why I am a democrat. For you to insinuate that I am a moron, because I do not believe that Bush has a sterling military record, is utterly despicable. Intolerance of others opinions is an indication of ignorance and stupidity. You are an embarrassment and disgrace to your own political party. Your screen name, JIHADTHIS, speaks for itself. Redneck, ignorance, stupidity....

 

[Avatar4321]

You are a prime example of why I am a democrat. For you to insinuate that I am a moron, because I do not believe that Bush has a sterling military record, is utterly despicable. Intolerance of others opinions is an indication of ignorance and stupidity. You are an embarrassment and disgrace to your own political party. Your screen name, JIHADTHIS, speaks for itself. Redneck, ignorance, stupidity....

Cant deal with the facts can you? I think im going to have to agree with Jihad on this one. If you believe Bush had a bad military record, despite the fact that he has released his records. shared everything publicly, has outstanding preformance, accomplished his points every year and was honorably discharged then you arent basing your assessment on any facts.

We, however, are basing our questions on John Kerrys record because he refused to release the records. We cant see for ourselves what happened and people who served with him say things happened differently. I dont know who is telling the truth there but logically i would give more weight to 200+ vets who were there then to John Kerry who wont even let us read his record.

 

[JIHADTHIS]

You are a prime example of why I am a democrat. For you to insinuate that I am a moron, because I do not believe that Bush has a sterling military record, is utterly despicable. Intolerance of others opinions is an indication of ignorance and stupidity. You are an embarrassment and disgrace to your own political party. Your screen name, JIHADTHIS, speaks for itself. Redneck, ignorance, stupidity....

Utterly despicable? I called you a moron because of what you posted above :

Why? Because his military record is a joke. He dodged his responsibilities. Kerry, on the otherhand, fought in the war while Bush bought his way out of it. Bush's service in the National Gaurd is laughable.

Your statement above is "utterly despicable" You didn't post that as opinion, rather as fact. The facts do not agree with you. You know nothing of what political party I am registered in all knowing one.

Liberalthis:wank: and have a nice farking weekend.



moron

 

[tim_duncan2000]

The question is, why is Kerry not releasing his military records? He is the one who is supposed to have the spectacular record. What is he trying to hide? He could have simply answered all the questions the swift boat veterans raised by releasing them. If Kerry is telling the truth then he needs to vidicate himself, not attack the veterans. But if his four months of service are important enough to base his entire campaign on i want to know about them.

Couldn't have said it any better.

 

[liberal4now]

I know that most Bush supporters do not understand the mindset of those who do not support him. I will attempt to explain why I do not support Bush and why I do not trust him as a president. First, I do think he dodged his military responsibilites. I thought this before the memos came out. But I'm not going to waste time talking about this here. I don't care about the canidates military record. I wish both sides would shut up about it.

Although I did not vote for Bush in the 2000 election, I felt a strong sense of patriotism and support for the Bush administration after the events of September 11th. That support, however, dwindled.

Right after September 11th, most people, democrats and republicans, supported the president. Not only did the president have national support, he had WORLD support. He forfieted that support when he started acting cocky and talking BIG. When he referred to Iran, Iraq, and North Korea, as the "Axis of Evil", I cringed. It wasn't that I didn't believe that these countries were not dangerous - I did! But there is such a thing as using diplomacy and tact, especially, when dealing with foreign leaders and international affairs. I lost a lot of respect for the president in the months to follow. I believed the "war on terror" could have been more effective had the president not alienated other countries. He pissed the world off with his arrogance. Is it his nature or is stupidity?

The president misled the people when he made his case for going to war with Iraq. There were no weapons WMDs. Iraq was not an imminent threat. When WMDs were not found, we were told that the war was to liberate the Iraqi people from a horrible dictator. "Operation Iraqi Freedon". The war was not about WMDs or liberating the Iraqi people. We all know what it was about. It was about the OIL. Liberating people - what a joke! What about Sudan? What are we doing for those people? Tens of thousands of people in Sudan are being killed, tortured, and raped. Compassionate conservative, right!

 

[rtwngAvngr]

I know that most Bush supporters do not understand the mindset of those who do not support him.

Yes. We do. You're socialists who are generally antiamerican, because america is not run according to you socialist tenets.

I will attempt to explain why I do not support Bush and why I do not trust him as a president. First, I do think he dodged his military responsibilites.

Even despite all evidence to the contrary? Curious.

I thought this before the memos came out. But I'm not going to waste time talking about this here.

Of course not, because you're wrong and have no proof.

I don't care about the canidates military record. I wish both sides would shut up about it.

Kerry is the one who has based his whole campaign on it. If he shut up about it, he'd apparently have nothing to say.

Although I did not vote for Bush in the 2000 election, I felt a strong sense of patriotism and support for the Bush administration after the events of September 11th. That support, however, dwindled.

Right after September 11th, most people, democrats and republicans, supported the president. Not only did the president have national support, he had WORLD support. He forfieted that support when he started acting cocky and talking BIG.

Of course all the eurolibs had deals with saddam and didn't want anything to disrupt their corrupt profit center.

When he referred to Iran, Iraq, and North Korea, as the "Axis of Evil", I cringed. It wasn't that I didn't believe that these countries were not dangerous - I did! But there is such a thing as using diplomacy and tact, especially, when dealing with foreign leaders and international affairs.

Diplomacy doesn't work with wicked liars. It's been proven over and over again.

I lost a lot of respect for the president in the months to follow. I believed the "war on terror" could have been more effective had the president not alienated other countries. He pissed the world off with his arrogance.

They were actually upset with him for turning off their corrupt profit flow from the oil for food program. Plus they like it that Saddam harbored antiamerican terrorists. The eurolibs are not our friends.

Is it his nature or is stupidity?

His nature is to resolutely defend america, unlike libs who kowtow to european antiamericanism.

The president misled the people when he made his case for going to war with Iraq.
There were no weapons WMDs. Iraq was not an imminent threat. When WMDs were not found, we were told that the war was to liberate the Iraqi people from a horrible dictator.

He cited several reasons. Not just wmd. also there's a difference between being wrong and lying. Also the many violated un resolutions alone should have justified the invasion in the mind of any reasonable person.

"Operation Iraqi Freedon". The war was not about WMDs or liberating the Iraqi people. We all know what it was about. It was about the OIL.
Liberating people - what a joke!

Yet people were liberated.

What about Sudan? What are we doing for those people? Tens of thousands of people in Sudan are being killed, tortured, and raped. Compassionate conservative, right!

We will deal with that next.

 

[Avatar4321]

I know that most Bush supporters do not understand the mindset of those who do not support him. I will attempt to explain why I do not support Bush and why I do not trust him as a president. First, I do think he dodged his military responsibilites. I thought this before the memos came out. But I'm not going to waste time talking about this here. I don't care about the canidates military record. I wish both sides would shut up about it.

dude, we understand your mindset completely. The problem with your mindset is its not based in reality. You are being called a moron because despite overwhelming evidence, you continue to assert stupid things not based in reality. Your statement that Bush doged his military responsibilities is ridiculous. he served his entire required time. The evidence shows that. I just quoted you a very long article articulating Bush's activities in that period. Yet not only continue to claim despite all evidence to the contrary that Bush didnt fulfill his responsibilities but you claim that somehow someone serving in the national guard is "dodging the draft" Yet those arent even the charges they are trying to falsify agianst Bush. They are trying to claim he went AWOL. Desserting and dodging are two completely different things. The fact you cant tell them apart doesnt speak highly for your analysis of the situation.

These falsified memos havent changed a single fact. Bush served honorably. In fact they speak even more for his service. Because if there was anything negative in Bush's military record the Democrats wouldnt have had to forge documents to the contrary.

Also, Bush isnt running on his Guard service. He hasnt said anything about His service or Kerry's service other than to say they both served honorably. Bush is running on his vision for the future. And contrasting his record with Kerry's senate record. Its John kerry who cant seem to say three words without mentioning his service in Vietnam.

Although I did not vote for Bush in the 2000 election, I felt a strong sense of patriotism and support for the Bush administration after the events of September 11th. That support, however, dwindled.

Thats your problem. Not the Presidents. Its not his fault You have forgotten that people are waging war on us. that they have attacked us and that your party has continued to undermine the Presidents effort to prevent another such attack from happening.

Right after September 11th, most people, democrats and republicans, supported the president. Not only did the president have national support, he had WORLD support. He forfieted that support when he started acting cocky and talking BIG. When he referred to Iran, Iraq, and North Korea, as the "Axis of Evil", I cringed. It wasn't that I didn't believe that these countries were not dangerous - I did! But there is such a thing as using diplomacy and tact, especially, when dealing with foreign leaders and international affairs. I lost a lot of respect for the president in the months to follow. I believed the "war on terror" could have been more effective had the president not alienated other countries. He pissed the world off with his arrogance. Is it his nature or is stupidity?

Um. They are already trying to kill us. Who the hell cares if they get pissed at us?

The president misled the people when he made his case for going to war with Iraq. There were no weapons WMDs. Iraq was not an imminent threat. When WMDs were not found, we were told that the war was to liberate the Iraqi people from a horrible dictator. "Operation Iraqi Freedon". The war was not about WMDs or liberating the Iraqi people. We all know what it was about. It was about the OIL. Liberating people - what a joke! What about Sudan? What are we doing for those people? Tens of thousands of people in Sudan are being killed, tortured, and raped. Compassionate conservative, right!

The President didnt mislead us at all. He never claimed that Iraq was an imminent threat. Why is it you liberals have such a hard time grasping that. He was very clear in the state of the union address before the war that we cant wait for the threats to become imminent. If it becomes an imminent threat, It's too late!

Yet you continue to parrot this "it was a war for oil" line. What oil? Where the heck is all the oil that we are supposed to have gotten from Iraq?

We may not be able to liberate every nation at the same time. Doesnt mean we shouldnt do what we can. If we went into the Sudan youd be b****ing just as much as you are now. One of these days the President ought to call your guys bluff and send military troops to liberate some other nation your saying is a bigger problem.

Try to get back to us when you arent just paroting the Democrat talking points.