More jobs at lower wage OR fewer jobs at higher wage?

[Wiseacre]

Wouldja rather have more jobs at a lower wage or fewer jobs at a higher wage? What do you think is better for the country? Not looking at starting another argument over RTW, we already got a few threads going on that. Also not looking for another bitchfest over incomes of the top 1%.

Me, I'd rather have more people working with some hope of advancement. Hard to advance if you ain't got a job in the first place. It may not be a 'living wage', but building a good employment record is an opportunity that as many as possible should have IMHO.

 

[waltky]

Technology is eliminating middle-class jobs...

Recession, tech kill middle-class jobs
Jan 23,`13 -- Five years after the start of the Great Recession, the toll is terrifyingly clear: Millions of middle-class jobs have been lost in developed countries the world over. And the situation is even worse than it appears.

Most of the jobs will never return, and millions more are likely to vanish as well, say experts who study the labor market. What's more, these jobs aren't just being lost to China and other developing countries, and they aren't just factory work. Increasingly, jobs are disappearing in the service sector, home to two-thirds of all workers. They're being obliterated by technology. Year after year, the software that runs computers and an array of other machines and devices becomes more sophisticated and powerful and capable of doing more efficiently tasks that humans have always done.

For decades, science fiction warned of a future when we would be architects of our own obsolescence, replaced by our machines; an Associated Press analysis finds that the future has arrived. "The jobs that are going away aren't coming back," says Andrew McAfee, principal research scientist at the Center for Digital Business at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and co-author of "Race Against the Machine." `'I have never seen a period where computers demonstrated as many skills and abilities as they have over the past seven years."

The global economy is being reshaped by machines that generate and analyze vast amounts of data; by devices such as smartphones and tablet computers that let people work just about anywhere, even when they're on the move; by smarter, nimbler robots; and by services that let businesses rent computing power when they need it, instead of installing expensive equipment and hiring IT staffs to run it. Whole employment categories, from secretaries to travel agents, are starting to disappear. "There's no sector of the economy that's going to get a pass," says Martin Ford, who runs a software company and wrote "The Lights in the Tunnel," a book predicting widespread job losses. "It's everywhere."

The numbers startle even labor economists. In the United States, half the 7.5 million jobs lost during the Great Recession were in industries that pay middle-class wages, ranging from $38,000 to $68,000. But only 2 percent of the 3.5 million jobs gained since the recession ended in June 2009 are in midpay industries. Nearly 70 percent are in low-pay industries, 29 percent in industries that pay well. In the 17 European countries that use the euro as their currency, the numbers are even worse. Almost 4.3 million low-pay jobs have been gained since mid-2009, but the loss of midpay jobs has never stopped. A total of 7.6 million disappeared from January 2008 through last June. Experts warn that this "hollowing out" of the middle-class workforce is far from over. They predict the loss of millions more jobs as technology becomes even more sophisticated and reaches deeper into our lives. Maarten Goos, an economist at the University of Leuven in Belgium, says Europe could double its middle-class job losses.

MORE

 

[PaulS1950]

If you have a family to support, a mortgage to pay and now, mandatory heath care to pay for how are you going to get by on a job that pays little more than minimum wage? Working two jobs that pay $10 an hour only makes a below average annual income and costs twice as much in fuel. It also requires that you are away from your family 18 hours a day (including travel), get less than six hours of sleep and never see your kids. In addition to that people don't keep those jobs for long because the working conditions are too often sub-standard.
More low paying jobs is not an alternative. we need people who are willing to start their own businesses and hire people to work for living wages with real benifits. We need more jobs that pay well and more businesses to provide them.

 

[jillian]

If you have a family to support, a mortgage to pay and now, mandatory heath care to pay for how are you going to get by on a job that pays little more than minimum wage? Working two jobs that pay $10 an hour only makes a below average annual income and costs twice as much in fuel. It also requires that you are away from your family 18 hours a day (including travel), get less than six hours of sleep and never see your kids. In addition to that people don't keep those jobs for long because the working conditions are too often sub-standard.
More low paying jobs is not an alternative. we need people who are willing to start their own businesses and hire people to work for living wages with real benifits. We need more jobs that pay well and more businesses to provide them.

but you need demand to fuel those businesses. demand doesn't exist absent a stable middle class.

US Businesses have been sitting on 2 trillion dollars that they aren't spending. Hopefully now that they no longer are trying to manipulate the election to benefit corporate interests, they'll use the money to hire and for other business expansion purposes.

PolitiFact | Obama says companies have nearly $2 trillion sitting on their balance sheets

 

[thanatos144]

Why do these discussions always have progressives using Marxists class system? There are two classes.....Those working and those not...Period.

 

[PaulS1950]

Small businesses emplow the vast majority of people in this country. Corporations come a trailing third place in the numbers of people employed. Do the research, find a niche or better yet make a new one. Come up with something people want to buy, use it up and buy it again - that is the secret to success.

 

[thanatos144]

Small businesses emplow the vast majority of people in this country. Corporations come a trailing third place in the numbers of people employed. Do the research, find a niche or better yet make a new one. Come up with something people want to buy, use it up and buy it again - that is the secret to success.

Hey how do people buy these things when no one has a job?

 

[auditor0007]

If you have a family to support, a mortgage to pay and now, mandatory heath care to pay for how are you going to get by on a job that pays little more than minimum wage? Working two jobs that pay $10 an hour only makes a below average annual income and costs twice as much in fuel. It also requires that you are away from your family 18 hours a day (including travel), get less than six hours of sleep and never see your kids. In addition to that people don't keep those jobs for long because the working conditions are too often sub-standard.
More low paying jobs is not an alternative. we need people who are willing to start their own businesses and hire people to work for living wages with real benifits. We need more jobs that pay well and more businesses to provide them.

but you need demand to fuel those businesses. demand doesn't exist absent a stable middle class.

US Businesses have been sitting on 2 trillion dollars that they aren't spending. Hopefully now that they no longer are trying to manipulate the election to benefit corporate interests, they'll use the money to hire and for other business expansion purposes.

PolitiFact | Obama says companies have nearly $2 trillion sitting on their balance sheets

Somewhere along the way, we reverted back to the type of thinking that was prevalent in the roaring 20's. While the 20's was roaring for some, many were poor, income inequality was massive, and of course it led to the the stock market crash and the Great Depression. So when did we have our longest stretch of long term growth? From the 40's through the 70's, at a time when unions were thriving, the middle class was expanding dramatically, and the wealthy were being taxed at much higher rates. The rich were still rich, but they weren't sucking the life out of the economy as they are today, or as they did in the 20's.

If we are to see a return to great prosperity for everyone, it will have to start from the bottom once again. Trickle down is a joke. All it does is put the vast majority of wealth in the hands of the few and leave everyone else waiting for the crumbs to fall off the table.

 

[Clementine]

Ideally we have jobs that pay a range of salaries so the teens can get summer jobs that call for unskilled labor and more experienced people can find something they are trained to do.

It's not that way anymore and with the raises in minimum wages, government must believe people are staying at the same job flipping burgers their entire lives. I'm always amazed when a liberal insists that ALL jobs should support a typical family. A person used to have the opportunity to advance or find a better job when they completed their education or gained experience. I've always thought of minimum wage jobs as being entry level ones for those first entering the job market. And if a person doesn't have what it takes to keep moving up, they need to look at themselves and ask why.

I'm sure fewer are moving up that ladder of success these days. So many small businesses have gone under so any hopes of moving from sales clerk to manager died along with them. And more will go away because of Obamacare.

And so many people aren't educated, so there is no way they'll move up in companies, if they can get hired to begin with. More and more good jobs require a college degree, or at the very least, a high school diploma.

We have several companies around here and they offer labor jobs at decent starting wages. People around town have been with the companies for years and they are living in real nice homes and drive nice cars, so clearly they got raises each year. Their jobs got easier as they moved up to less laborious jobs as the new comers came in to take their place. The companies require applicants to be tested for drugs before getting hired and I believe there is also random testing done after a person gets hired. That is another roadblock for many people.

Some people have few options going in because of their lack of education or inability to pass a drug test, so they go into fast food places or labor jobs at factories or farms and then whine about minimum wage. And even minimum wage jobs aren't easy to get these days because there are so many desperate people who lost their jobs and are now competition for any job that comes open.

Most small businesses had room for advancement and often would expand, so it opened up more opportunities for employees. I knew one guy who first started as a stock boy, worked his way up to assistant manager and when the owner opened a new store, the guy become manager and made damn good money. Even a McDonald's manager makes a decent living, but you have to be a hard worker, trustworthy and have the skills to take another step up the ladder.

We have so many closed businesses downtown, some that had been here for years. And now so many are either laying off employees or cutting their hours. It's bad news for the workers, but it's the only way the businesses can stay open. I guess a part time job is better than no job.

Many service industry jobs disappeared right after the Obama administration's criticism of wealthy execs holding functions each year and accused them of spending TARP money. Even though they had planned and paid for the events before getting the money, that didn't stop ignorant people from vilifying them for holding those events. Many other companies, who didn't take any TARP money, were canceling yearly events for employees and clients because they feared public backlash just for having money to spend. A lot of resorts, restaurants and hotels laid off workers during the big AIG bashfest.

The only people I know of who went about spending like fools and enjoying themselves on lavish vacations the last 4 years are the Obamas.

More jobs at lower wages would be good right now just to get some people off welfare. And if Obama would consider how his policies affect businesses and the economy and repeal Obamacare and stop the cap and trade bullshit, more small businesses would find the confidence to hire people back and maybe even expand.

The government has also imposed a limit on the number of small business loans a bank can make. Why the hell are they trying to stop people from going into business in the first place?

When you see the middle class and small businesses slowly going away, you can thank the current administration for it's job killing policies and general hostile attitude toward the private sector.

 

[auditor0007]

Ideally we have jobs that pay a range of salaries so the teens can get summer jobs that call for unskilled labor and more experienced people can find something they are trained to do.

It's not that way anymore and with the raises in minimum wages, government must believe people are staying at the same job flipping burgers their entire lives. I'm always amazed when a liberal insists that ALL jobs should support a typical family. A person used to have the opportunity to advance or find a better job when they completed their education or gained experience. I've always thought of minimum wage jobs as being entry level ones for those first entering the job market. And if a person doesn't have what it takes to keep moving up, they need to look at themselves and ask why.

I'm sure fewer are moving up that ladder of success these days. So many small businesses have gone under so any hopes of moving from sales clerk to manager died along with them. And more will go away because of Obamacare.

And so many people aren't educated, so there is no way they'll move up in companies, if they can get hired to begin with. More and more good jobs require a college degree, or at the very least, a high school diploma.

We have several companies around here and they offer labor jobs at decent starting wages. People around town have been with the companies for years and they are living in real nice homes and drive nice cars, so clearly they got raises each year. Their jobs got easier as they moved up to less laborious jobs as the new comers came in to take their place. The companies require applicants to be tested for drugs before getting hired and I believe there is also random testing done after a person gets hired. That is another roadblock for many people.

Some people have few options going in because of their lack of education or inability to pass a drug test, so they go into fast food places or labor jobs at factories or farms and then whine about minimum wage. And even minimum wage jobs aren't easy to get these days because there are so many desperate people who lost their jobs and are now competition for any job that comes open.

Most small businesses had room for advancement and often would expand, so it opened up more opportunities for employees. I knew one guy who first started as a stock boy, worked his way up to assistant manager and when the owner opened a new store, the guy become manager and made damn good money. Even a McDonald's manager makes a decent living, but you have to be a hard worker, trustworthy and have the skills to take another step up the ladder.

We have so many closed businesses downtown, some that had been here for years. And now so many are either laying off employees or cutting their hours. It's bad news for the workers, but it's the only way the businesses can stay open. I guess a part time job is better than no job.

Many service industry jobs disappeared right after the Obama administration's criticism of wealthy execs holding functions each year and accused them of spending TARP money. Even though they had planned and paid for the events before getting the money, that didn't stop ignorant people from vilifying them for holding those events. Many other companies, who didn't take any TARP money, were canceling yearly events for employees and clients because they feared public backlash just for having money to spend. A lot of resorts, restaurants and hotels laid off workers during the big AIG bashfest.

The only people I know of who went about spending like fools and enjoying themselves on lavish vacations the last 4 years are the Obamas.

More jobs at lower wages would be good right now just to get some people off welfare. And if Obama would consider how his policies affect businesses and the economy and repeal Obamacare and stop the cap and trade bullshit, more small businesses would find the confidence to hire people back and maybe even expand.

The government has also imposed a limit on the number of small business loans a bank can make. Why the hell are they trying to stop people from going into business in the first place?

When you see the middle class and small businesses slowly going away, you can thank the current administration for it's job killing policies and general hostile attitude toward the private sector.

Right off the bat, your premise that we have had big increases in the minimum wage are off to begin with. Had it not been for the recent raises in the minimum wage over the past few years, the minimum wage would be the lowest it has ever been. In 2006, the minimum wage hit rock bottom as it's buying power was at it's lowest since inception. The value of the minimum wage in 2006 was more than $3 less than it was in 1968. While it has come up some due to the increases over the past few years, it is still over $2 less than it was in 1968 as far as purchasing power goes.

 

[Politico]

I would be fine with jobs with wages.

 

[Clementine]

Ideally we have jobs that pay a range of salaries so the teens can get summer jobs that call for unskilled labor and more experienced people can find something they are trained to do.

It's not that way anymore and with the raises in minimum wages, government must believe people are staying at the same job flipping burgers their entire lives. I'm always amazed when a liberal insists that ALL jobs should support a typical family. A person used to have the opportunity to advance or find a better job when they completed their education or gained experience. I've always thought of minimum wage jobs as being entry level ones for those first entering the job market. And if a person doesn't have what it takes to keep moving up, they need to look at themselves and ask why.

I'm sure fewer are moving up that ladder of success these days. So many small businesses have gone under so any hopes of moving from sales clerk to manager died along with them. And more will go away because of Obamacare.

And so many people aren't educated, so there is no way they'll move up in companies, if they can get hired to begin with. More and more good jobs require a college degree, or at the very least, a high school diploma.

We have several companies around here and they offer labor jobs at decent starting wages. People around town have been with the companies for years and they are living in real nice homes and drive nice cars, so clearly they got raises each year. Their jobs got easier as they moved up to less laborious jobs as the new comers came in to take their place. The companies require applicants to be tested for drugs before getting hired and I believe there is also random testing done after a person gets hired. That is another roadblock for many people.

Some people have few options going in because of their lack of education or inability to pass a drug test, so they go into fast food places or labor jobs at factories or farms and then whine about minimum wage. And even minimum wage jobs aren't easy to get these days because there are so many desperate people who lost their jobs and are now competition for any job that comes open.

Most small businesses had room for advancement and often would expand, so it opened up more opportunities for employees. I knew one guy who first started as a stock boy, worked his way up to assistant manager and when the owner opened a new store, the guy become manager and made damn good money. Even a McDonald's manager makes a decent living, but you have to be a hard worker, trustworthy and have the skills to take another step up the ladder.

We have so many closed businesses downtown, some that had been here for years. And now so many are either laying off employees or cutting their hours. It's bad news for the workers, but it's the only way the businesses can stay open. I guess a part time job is better than no job.

Many service industry jobs disappeared right after the Obama administration's criticism of wealthy execs holding functions each year and accused them of spending TARP money. Even though they had planned and paid for the events before getting the money, that didn't stop ignorant people from vilifying them for holding those events. Many other companies, who didn't take any TARP money, were canceling yearly events for employees and clients because they feared public backlash just for having money to spend. A lot of resorts, restaurants and hotels laid off workers during the big AIG bashfest.

The only people I know of who went about spending like fools and enjoying themselves on lavish vacations the last 4 years are the Obamas.

More jobs at lower wages would be good right now just to get some people off welfare. And if Obama would consider how his policies affect businesses and the economy and repeal Obamacare and stop the cap and trade bullshit, more small businesses would find the confidence to hire people back and maybe even expand.

The government has also imposed a limit on the number of small business loans a bank can make. Why the hell are they trying to stop people from going into business in the first place?

When you see the middle class and small businesses slowly going away, you can thank the current administration for it's job killing policies and general hostile attitude toward the private sector.

Right off the bat, your premise that we have had big increases in the minimum wage are off to begin with. Had it not been for the recent raises in the minimum wage over the past few years, the minimum wage would be the lowest it has ever been. In 2006, the minimum wage hit rock bottom as it's buying power was at it's lowest since inception. The value of the minimum wage in 2006 was more than $3 less than it was in 1968. While it has come up some due to the increases over the past few years, it is still over $2 less than it was in 1968 as far as purchasing power goes.

I didn't say big raises, just that it has been raised over the years. The Dems are always wanting to raise the minimum wage and it's always the same argument that people can't support families on it. My point is that you're not supposed to. Minimum wage jobs are entry level and perfect for teens or college kids entering the job market for the first time. It's also good for those who just need a little extra income. Usually, those jobs are just unskilled labor or service industry type jobs, the kind you don't need experience and education to get. Anyone can flip burgers or milk cows if they are shown how to do it. Most employers who offer minimum wage jobs aren't rolling in the dough. Restaurants generally don't offer the big bucks to dishwashers and waitresses. Some businesses have entry level positions at minimum wage, but offer advancement opportunity to better wages for qualified employees.

So, libs need to quit complaining that you can't buy a house, car and raise a family on minimum wage. You're not supposed to.

Of course, now that Obama's policies have made the middle class jobs disappear, those with higher education and experience are settling for whatever job they can find.

 

[waltky]

Uncle Ferd says dat's why he lost his job wringin' farts outta shirt-tails atta dry cleaners...

Is technology a job killer? A few history lessons
Jan 23,`13 -- To workers being pushed out of jobs by today's technology, history has a message: You're not the first.

From textile machines to the horseless carriage to email, technology has upended industries and wiped out jobs for centuries. It also has created millions of jobs, though usually not for the people who lost them. "People suffer - their livelihoods, their skills and training are worth less," says Joel Mokyr, a historian of technological change at Northwestern University. "But that is the price we pay for progress." A look at breakthroughs that made the goods we buy more affordable, our lives more comfortable - and our jobs more precarious:

THE FIRST INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION

For most of history, people made many goods themselves. That changed with the First Industrial Revolution, which began in England in the mid-18th century and lasted about 100 years. New mechanical devices that allowed one man to do the work of several flooded the market with products, most notably textiles. Using cords, wheels and rollers, inventors sped up the twisting of threads to make yarn and the weaving of yarn to make cloth. Next, steam was used to free the new machines from the limits of man's muscle and make them run faster. The new machines produced so much, so fast and so cheaply, more people could afford to buy textiles. Demand soared and so did jobs manning the machines and doing other work.

In America in 1793, Eli Whitney freed slaves from the laborious work of picking sticky seeds from cotton bolls by inventing a cotton gin that did that automatically. It led to widespread planting of cotton - but even more work for slaves.Whitney also is credited with another invention: interchangeable parts. At a workshop he ran for making firearms, he had his staff make the same part many times so that his guns could be assembled quickly. It worked, and industries such as watch makers copied his method.

In 1831, Cyrus McCormick invented a reaper that cut wheat stalks as it was pulled by horses and piled them on a platform. Farmers could harvest faster. In 1837, John Deere stuck the blade of a steel saw onto a plow and invented the steel-edged plow to replace cast-iron ones. Farmers could cut a furrow in the earth more easily and sow faster. And so began a series of inventions that made farming efficient, and began to drain farms of people. In 1800, two-thirds of Americans worked on farms; today, 2 percent do.

THE SECOND INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION

See also:

A look at jobs replaced by technology
Jan 24,`13 - Five years after the start of the Great Recession, the toll is terrifyingly clear: Millions of middle-class jobs have been lost in developed countries the world over.

Worse, those jobs weren't just lost to China and other developing countries. No one got them. They vanished, victims of increasingly sophisticated software and machines that can do tasks faster, cheaper and often better than humans.

Here is a photo gallery of jobs especially hard hit by the technological onslaught.

 

[waltky]

Granny says dat's Uncle Ferd's dream world...

Will smart machines create a world without work?
Jan 25,`13 WASHINGTON (AP) -- They seem right out of a Hollywood fantasy, and they are: Cars that drive themselves have appeared in movies like "I, Robot" and the television show "Knight Rider."

Now, three years after Google invented one, automated cars could be on their way to a freeway near you. In the U.S., California and other states are rewriting the rules of the road to make way for driverless cars. Just one problem: What happens to the millions of people who make a living driving cars and trucks - jobs that always have seemed sheltered from the onslaught of technology? "All those jobs are going to disappear in the next 25 years," predicts Moshe Vardi, a computer scientist at Rice University in Houston. "Driving by people will look quaint; it will look like a horse and buggy." If automation can unseat bus drivers, urban deliverymen, long-haul truckers, even cabbies, is any job safe? Vardi poses an equally scary question: "Are we prepared for an economy in which 50 percent of people aren't working?"

An Associated Press analysis of employment data from 20 countries found that millions of midskill, midpay jobs already have disappeared over the past five years, and they are the jobs that form the backbone of the middle class in developed countries. That experience has left a growing number of technologists and economists wondering what lies ahead. Will middle-class jobs return when the global economy recovers, or are they lost forever because of the advance of technology? The answer may not be known for years, perhaps decades. Experts argue among themselves whether the job market will recover, muddle along or get much worse. To understand their arguments, it helps to understand the past.

Every time a transformative invention took hold over the past two centuries - whether the steamboat in the 1820s or the locomotive in the 1850s or the telegraph or the telephone - businesses would disappear and workers would lose jobs. But new businesses would emerge that employed even more. The combustion engine decimated makers of horse-drawn carriages, saddles, buggy whips and other occupations that depended on the horse trade. But it also resulted in huge auto plants that employed hundreds of thousands of workers, who were paid enough to help create a prosperous middle class. "What has always been true is that technology has destroyed jobs but also always created jobs," says Nobel Prize-winning economist Joseph Stiglitz of Columbia University. "You know the old story we tell about (how) the car destroyed blacksmiths and created the auto industry."

The astounding capabilities of computer technology are forcing some mainstream economists to rethink the conventional wisdom about the economic benefits of technology, however. For the first time, we are seeing machines that can think - or something close to it. In the early 1980s, at the beginning of the personal computer age, economists thought computers would do what machines had done for two centuries - eliminate jobs that required brawn, not brains. Low-level workers would be forced to seek training to qualify for jobs that required more skills. They'd become more productive and earn more money. The process would be the same as when mechanization replaced manual labor on the farm a century ago; workers moved to the city and got factory jobs that required higher skills but paid more.

But it hasn't quite worked out that way. It turns out that computers most easily target jobs that involve routines, whatever skill level they require. And the most vulnerable of these jobs, economists have found, tend to employ midskill workers, even those held by people with college degrees - the very jobs that support a middle-class, consumer economy. So the rise of computer technology poses a threat that previous generations of machines didn't: The old machines replaced human brawn but created jobs that required human brains. The new machines threaten both. "Technological change is more encompassing and moving faster and making it harder and harder to find things that people have a comparative advantage in" versus machines, says David Autor, an economist at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology who has studied the loss of midpay jobs to technology. Here are the three scenarios that economists and technologists offer about jobs in the future:

-THE ECONOMY RETURNS TO HEALTH AFTER A WRENCHING TRANSITION

 

[thanatos144]

A unemployed Progressive is just a snob who thinks they are to good for certain Jobs.....Pathetic.