More evidence of Israel's discrimination

[P F Tinmore]

Israel's version of peace is everyone just stop and live their lives. Can you show me where a leader of Israel came out to say their objective is to obliterate Palestine? I know you know the Hamas leadership has advocated the obliteration of Israel, yet you claim the opposite. How?

Yeah, that's a big problem. You've only gotten half the story.


"There is no such thing as a Palestinian people... It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn't exist."
-- Golda Meir, statement to The Sunday Times, 15 June, 1969.

"How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to."
-- Golda Meir, March 8, 1969.

"We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!"
-- Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.


The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized .... Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for Ever."
-- Menachem Begin, the day after the U.N. vote to partition Palestine.

"[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the 'Beasts,"' New Statesman, June 25, 1982.

"(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls."
-- Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) Yitzhak Shamir in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988

"Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories."
-- Benyamin Netanyahu, then Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister, former Prime Minister of Israel, speaking to students at Bar Ilan University, from the Israeli journal Hotam, November 24, 1989.

"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.

"Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours...Everything we don't grab will go to them."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of the Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, Nov. 15, 1998.

"Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on trial."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, 25 March, 2001 quoted in BBC News Online

Don't believe me? Go ahead, pick any section of any quote and put in in quotes on Google. It's not like its a big secret.

Hamas is labeled a terrorist organization for saying the exact same things and doing the exact same things that the Israelis do. The difference being that Palestinians don't have tanks or clusterbombs or smart missiles or advanced targeting systems, because they're fucking poor. So they lob a rocket somewhere and they're terrorists.

Don't get me wrong here, Hamas are a bunch of thugs, just as terrible any of the thuggish political parties in many places that use fear, xenophobia and violence to manipulate people and gain more power. But when it comes down to it, they're lesser thugs than the Israelis, not because they're less 'evil' (whatever the hell that means), but simply because they don't have the means that the Israeli government has in imposing its force.

And, of course, Arafart had said all of Palestine shall be liberated (including Tel-Aviv, Haifa, etc.). And the Hamas charter calls Jews pigs and monkeys.
Don't you see the pattern by now? Rabin and Peres, liberals, retreat from some land. Terror. To counter it, Netanyahu, an extreme rightist, is elected. He puts down terror. But the people of Israel really desire peace in the end, so they put him down and elect Barak, a liberal. He retreats from some land. Terror. So Sharon is elected. Puts down terror. He suffers from a stroke, and Olmert, more liberal, comes to power. He offers more land to Abbas. Abbas refuses. Terror. So Netanyahu is elected again to put down terror. And on and on it goes...

That is the Israeli propaganda version.

What say the other side?

 

[Epsilon Delta]

Eh fair enough. I guess I am just naive, i just want everyone to chill the fuck out you know. haha. If I had to choose i'd still back israel probably though.

If everyone chilled the fuck out it would be good. The problem is that right now, as we speak, Israel is building settlements and putting its citizens in the Occupied Territories, where the supposed future Palestinian state is going to be. I mean, peeps don't just start rioting and lobbing rockets for no reason.

The first Qassam rocket to ever land on Israel landed there in 2002... For 8 years after Oslo started, the Palestinians chilled the fuck out. For those 8 years, Israel kept building settlements and putting citizens on Palestinian land. How are the Palestinians supposed to trust the Israelis? They keep saying "Yeah, sure Palestinian state... once we're done taking what we want. THEN you can have a 'state.'"

 

[Epsilon Delta]

And, of course, Arafart had said all of Palestine shall be liberated (including Tel-Aviv, Haifa, etc.). And the Hamas charter calls Jews pigs and monkeys.
Don't you see the pattern by now? Rabin and Peres, liberals, retreat from some land. Terror. To counter it, Netanyahu, an extreme rightist, is elected. He puts down terror. But the people of Israel really desire peace in the end, so they put him down and elect Barak, a liberal. He retreats from some land. Terror. So Sharon is elected. Puts down terror. He suffers from a stroke, and Olmert, more liberal, comes to power. He offers more land to Abbas. Abbas refuses. Terror. So Netanyahu is elected again to put down terror. And on and on it goes...

Yeah, right, the "liberal" Barak and Rabin. It'd be a nice story if not for the fact that settlements continued. Not ONE of them stopped the expansion of the settlements, because none of them gave a damn.

 

[Kalam]

And the Hamas charter calls Jews pigs and monkeys.

Please quote this part of the Hamas Charter.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

It gives me a chance to make him look foolish.

And I bet you think you're doing a pretty good job, huh?

Did you read that State Department report?

I did actually, what was the point of posting it. It sounds a lot like the US, lots of problems, but overall doing a good job.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Nope.

Then explain how Israel is like the south during reconstruction.

Keep in mind when you attempt to explain this that I will be able to point to gay Palestinians that prefer to live in Israel than in Gaza so that they will not be killed by their families. I can also point to the historic fact that cultures always target gays if they are bigoted and discriminatory. Homosexuals are always the easiest target of discrimination, and the last to gain legal recognition. The fact that Israel allows them to live openly does more to dispel your contention that Israel is racist than anything else I have ever seen.

So, the existence of gay communities in major cities like Tel Aviv just blows any claim of discrimination out the window? I see. How convenient. Unfortunately, like most Zionist propaganda, it just doesn't mesh with the facts.

You don't have to be a Muslim to feel the heat from Israel's climate of ethnoreligious supremacism.

Ethiopian Jew? Not good enough.
Ethiopian community hit hard by discrimination - Israel News, Ynetnews

Haredi (ultra-orthodox)? Not good enough for Israel.
Poll: 83% of haredim suffer ethnic discrimination - Israel Jewish Scene, Ynetnews

I can find identical news items about places in the US, all it means is that there are problems. The fact that stories like this make it into the paper indicates that they are not the norm, and that society frowns on it.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Nah, I don't support targeting innocents. To me, Hamas is simply the least of many evils, Israel and al-Qa'idah being chief among them. They aren't immune from my criticism.

nah man you may be right but how can you say hamas is the lesser? I don't see Israelis sneaking into gaza with bombs on their chests trying to blow themselves up in front of bakeries.

No but Israel shoots at them from the perimeter like fish in a barrel.

Sure they do, and then they kill all the reporters who are skulking around hoping to catch them doing this, and confiscate all the video cameras and cell phones of the witnesses, and then they simply act like nothing happened.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

PF - the video is pretty disturbing but i have no idea what the context is, so I can't really change my mind very much by watchin git.

Kalam - Man idk. Hamas wants Israel absolutely gone. Israel just wants peace. That's the way I see it anyway. Israel makes truce offerings and such all the time, and Hamas just spouts hate and violence. As for the blackade, I don't understand the uproar. Ships of Iranian origin slipping passed israel to people who have dedicated their lives to murdering as many jewish people as possible. Iran, a country that supports Hamas, cargo ships...how else does Hamas get their rockets that are Iranian manufactured other than Iranian cargo ships? Why couldn't the ships just let Israel see that there was medical supplies or whatever (which was not the case in the situation earlier this year) and let them on their way. It is for the safety of everyone that the blockade and check points be used isnt it?

I would totally see your POV if I saw Hamas come out and say something to the effect of "all we want is peace, and are dedicated to the creation of an agreement that would create peace between all people of all religions." and after that, if israel starts killin people and everything, i would have to switch to your side obviously. But that's the opposite of what is happening.

The context is that the farmers are tending their crops while Israel shoots at them.

Of course Israel wants peace but their version of peace is all of Palestine without the Palestinians. The real clunker in your argument is that Israel occupies Palestine. That gives Palestine the legal and moral high ground.

The context is that "farmers" are "tending" to their crops while gunfire is going off somewhere nearby. If I was being shot at I would not stand there and calmly film a video and hope that whoever was shooting would not hit me because I have my hands up.

I call bullshit on your interpretation.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

PF - the video is pretty disturbing but i have no idea what the context is, so I can't really change my mind very much by watchin git.

Kalam - Man idk. Hamas wants Israel absolutely gone. Israel just wants peace. That's the way I see it anyway. Israel makes truce offerings and such all the time, and Hamas just spouts hate and violence. As for the blackade, I don't understand the uproar. Ships of Iranian origin slipping passed israel to people who have dedicated their lives to murdering as many jewish people as possible. Iran, a country that supports Hamas, cargo ships...how else does Hamas get their rockets that are Iranian manufactured other than Iranian cargo ships? Why couldn't the ships just let Israel see that there was medical supplies or whatever (which was not the case in the situation earlier this year) and let them on their way. It is for the safety of everyone that the blockade and check points be used isnt it?

I would totally see your POV if I saw Hamas come out and say something to the effect of "all we want is peace, and are dedicated to the creation of an agreement that would create peace between all people of all religions." and after that, if israel starts killin people and everything, i would have to switch to your side obviously. But that's the opposite of what is happening.

That has been offered to Israel and Israel rejected it.

I call bullshit again. Document where anyone offered Israel peaceful existence and they responded by killing them.

 

[P F Tinmore]

PF - the video is pretty disturbing but i have no idea what the context is, so I can't really change my mind very much by watchin git.

Kalam - Man idk. Hamas wants Israel absolutely gone. Israel just wants peace. That's the way I see it anyway. Israel makes truce offerings and such all the time, and Hamas just spouts hate and violence. As for the blackade, I don't understand the uproar. Ships of Iranian origin slipping passed israel to people who have dedicated their lives to murdering as many jewish people as possible. Iran, a country that supports Hamas, cargo ships...how else does Hamas get their rockets that are Iranian manufactured other than Iranian cargo ships? Why couldn't the ships just let Israel see that there was medical supplies or whatever (which was not the case in the situation earlier this year) and let them on their way. It is for the safety of everyone that the blockade and check points be used isnt it?

I would totally see your POV if I saw Hamas come out and say something to the effect of "all we want is peace, and are dedicated to the creation of an agreement that would create peace between all people of all religions." and after that, if israel starts killin people and everything, i would have to switch to your side obviously. But that's the opposite of what is happening.

That has been offered to Israel and Israel rejected it.

I call bullshit again. Document where anyone offered Israel peaceful existence and they responded by killing them.

Israeli official propaganda presents all its recent actions as defensive and necessary to stop the rockets fired by Palestinian fighters in Gaza. But if Israel's goal was to achieve calm and a cessation of violence, the first logical step would not be to contemplate new atrocities, but to respond positively to Hamas' repeated ceasefire proposals.

When it was elected in January 2006, Hamas had observed a unilateral ceasefire for more than a year. After the election, Hamas' leaders offered a long-term total truce, tentatively following the political path of other militant groups including the Irish Republican Army (IRA), whose 1994 ceasefire paved the way for the peace agreement in Northern Ireland. (In December, US President George W. Bush received Martin McGuinness, former second in command of the IRA, and now Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland, at the White House.)

Last December, Haaretz reported that Hamas had secured the agreement of all factions to end rocket fire on Israel, provided Israel reciprocated. Hamas was also engaged in indirect negotiations for the release of Palestinian political prisoners in exchange for an Israeli prisoner of war held in Gaza.

The problem was not that Israeli officials did not believe Hamas could deliver. Barak was reported to be in favor of considering a hudna -- a renewed truce, and a "senior Israeli security official" told Haaretz that "There's no doubt that Hamas is capable of forcing a let-up on Islamic Jihad and the other small factions in the Strip ... It won't be a 100 percent decrease, but even 98 percent would be a big change." ("Olmert rejects Hamas cease-fire offer," Haaretz, 25 December 2007).

If even Israel believed that Hamas could reliably enforce a truce, why does it refuse to accept one? Why has it refused to engage with Hamas, as American and British policy-makers did with the IRA?

For Israel the potential that Hamas could turn to politics presents a threat, not an opportunity. Israel has no interest in facing Palestinian leaders who are at once committed to basic Palestinian rights, capable of delivering, and enjoy popular legitimacy and support.

So instead of engaging with Hamas, the US and Israel announced a complete boycott which was intended to turn the Palestinian population against the movement.

ei: Israel's "next logical step"

 

[Kalam]

Then explain how Israel is like the south during reconstruction.

Keep in mind when you attempt to explain this that I will be able to point to gay Palestinians that prefer to live in Israel than in Gaza so that they will not be killed by their families. I can also point to the historic fact that cultures always target gays if they are bigoted and discriminatory. Homosexuals are always the easiest target of discrimination, and the last to gain legal recognition. The fact that Israel allows them to live openly does more to dispel your contention that Israel is racist than anything else I have ever seen.

So, the existence of gay communities in major cities like Tel Aviv just blows any claim of discrimination out the window? I see. How convenient. Unfortunately, like most Zionist propaganda, it just doesn't mesh with the facts.

You don't have to be a Muslim to feel the heat from Israel's climate of ethnoreligious supremacism.

Ethiopian Jew? Not good enough.
Ethiopian community hit hard by discrimination - Israel News, Ynetnews

Haredi (ultra-orthodox)? Not good enough for Israel.
Poll: 83% of haredim suffer ethnic discrimination - Israel Jewish Scene, Ynetnews

I can find identical news items about places in the US

Come back when you find news items about country-wide occurrences.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Why? The ones you list don't meet that criteria.

 

[al Haq]

I call bullshit again. Document where anyone offered Israel peaceful existence and they responded by killing them.

In January 2004, Sheikh Ahmed Yassin (founder and spiritual leader of Hamas) offered to end armed resistance in exchange for a “true and genuine” Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza Strip with East Jerusalem as its capital, and said that restoring Palestinians “historical rights” (rights of the refugees from the 1948 expulsion) “would be left for future generations.”

Linkie:
Al-Ahram Weekly | Region | Running out of time

Barely two months later, on March 22, 2004, Israel used Hellfire missiles fired from a helicopter gunship to assassinate Yassin in the street, as he was being wheeled home from early morning prayers at a mosque. Two of Yassin's bodyguards and nine bystanders were killed as well, and 12 others wounded, including two of Yassin‘s sons.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Funny, I looked and I can find no mention of that offer anywhere other than your blog. Makes me think that someone is lying.

 

[Kalam]

Why? The ones you list don't meet that criteria.

Your reading comprehension issues make it easier to see why you're so supportive of Zionist racism.

From the first article:

The facts seem to show that these attitudes are not confined to specific areas of the country but rather represent a collective phenomenon within Israeli society.​

...And the second article:

The survey was conducted by the Panels research institute and included 501 respondents – a national sample representing the mature population in large Jewish communities in Israel. The maximal sampling error was ±4.4%.
​

Anything else?

 

[al Haq]

Funny, I looked and I can find no mention of that offer anywhere other than your blog. Makes me think that someone is lying.

Al Ahram is not "my blog"

It is Egypt's largest-circulation newspaper.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Funny, I looked and I can find no mention of that offer anywhere other than your blog. Makes me think that someone is lying.

Yes, someone is lying.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6hCe6CBwko&has_verified=1[/ame]

 

[Marc39]

Even the United States can't ignore Israel's flagrantly discriminatory policies. I'll refrain from picking out the highlights; you'd benefit from reading the entire 2004 report:

Israel and the occupied territories

Remember, everyone, discrimination is okay as long as it's kosher.

That's the same UN that has Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Cuba and China on its Human Rights Commission?

Gotcha.