More evidence of Israel's discrimination

[al Haq]

This "Israel supports gay rights" talking point is apparently the latest bizarro image campaign for Israel:

This week, Michael Lucas is making what he calls “a bold move to promote Israeli culture and tourism.” His website extols the virtues of a country rich with natural wonders, intriguing museums, liberal politics, and friendly locals. More than a biblical theme park, Lucas’s Israel is a tourist destination, a place where lovely beaches beckon and muscle-bound men have sex with each other.

Lucas—a porn actor and director, and founder of the New York-based gay porn production company Lucas Entertainment—sees his new film Men of Israel as a tool, if you will, to promote tourism, at least among gay men.

Make no mistake, this is not a one-off promotion by an odd-ball Jewish gay pornographer. This is part of an orchestrated hasbara campaign spearheaded by groups like Stand With Us, who promoted Israel during the latter’s Gay Pride Festival as a natural ally of gays around the world. The angle for SWU (and there always IS an angle with groups like this) is to trumpet the alleged homophobia of Palestinian/Arab society compared to the alleged freedom and tolerance of “western” Israel towards a gay lifestyle. Never mind that Israel is less tolerant of gays than the average western country. That matters little for the hasbaraniks of SWU.

Linkie:
Jeffrey Goldberg Hasbara | Tikun Olam-???? ????: Make the World a Better Place

It's fascinating that hasbarats promote the image of Israeli hedonism as a marketing device to counter the image of Israel as a warmongering terror state. Remember the one where they had IDF women stripping down to bikinis?

 

[Kalam]

Do you or do you not support Hamas?

Certainly not to the extent that you support Israel.

Can not even be honest can you?

About what? Everything I've said here is entirely true. I support Hamas out of necessity - for the most part, the other organizations resisting Israel either subscribe to secular ideologies, like Fatah, or heretical ideologies, like al-Qa'idah. You support Israel more enthusiastically than I support Hamas. Deal with it.

 

[Liberty]

Certainly not to the extent that you support Israel.

Can not even be honest can you?

About what? Everything I've said here is entirely true. I support Hamas out of necessity - for the most part, the other organizations resisting Israel either subscribe to secular ideologies, like Fatah, or heretical ideologies, like al-Qa'idah. You support Israel more enthusiastically than I support Hamas. Deal with it.

Damn. Kalam makes a lot of sense and logical points on other topics on USMB, but on this topic I am saddened he supports suicide bombings and such of innocent people.

 

[Kalam]

Can not even be honest can you?

About what? Everything I've said here is entirely true. I support Hamas out of necessity - for the most part, the other organizations resisting Israel either subscribe to secular ideologies, like Fatah, or heretical ideologies, like al-Qa'idah. You support Israel more enthusiastically than I support Hamas. Deal with it.

Damn. Kalam makes a lot of sense and logical points on other topics on USMB, but on this topic I am saddened he supports suicide bombings and such of innocent people.

Nah, I don't support targeting innocents. To me, Hamas is simply the least of many evils, Israel and al-Qa'idah being chief among them. They aren't immune to my criticism.

 

[Liberty]

About what? Everything I've said here is entirely true. I support Hamas out of necessity - for the most part, the other organizations resisting Israel either subscribe to secular ideologies, like Fatah, or heretical ideologies, like al-Qa'idah. You support Israel more enthusiastically than I support Hamas. Deal with it.

Damn. Kalam makes a lot of sense and logical points on other topics on USMB, but on this topic I am saddened he supports suicide bombings and such of innocent people.

Nah, I don't support targeting innocents. To me, Hamas is simply the least of many evils, Israel and al-Qa'idah being chief among them. They aren't immune from my criticism.

nah man you may be right but how can you say hamas is the lesser? I don't see Israelis sneaking into gaza with bombs on their chests trying to blow themselves up in front of bakeries.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Damn. Kalam makes a lot of sense and logical points on other topics on USMB, but on this topic I am saddened he supports suicide bombings and such of innocent people.

Nah, I don't support targeting innocents. To me, Hamas is simply the least of many evils, Israel and al-Qa'idah being chief among them. They aren't immune from my criticism.

nah man you may be right but how can you say hamas is the lesser? I don't see Israelis sneaking into gaza with bombs on their chests trying to blow themselves up in front of bakeries.

No but Israel shoots at them from the perimeter like fish in a barrel.

 

[Liberty]

Nah, I don't support targeting innocents. To me, Hamas is simply the least of many evils, Israel and al-Qa'idah being chief among them. They aren't immune from my criticism.

nah man you may be right but how can you say hamas is the lesser? I don't see Israelis sneaking into gaza with bombs on their chests trying to blow themselves up in front of bakeries.

No but Israel shoots at them from the perimeter like fish in a barrel.

so watching the border and defending it is the same as blowing yourself up in front of a private business. Interesting logic.

 

[P F Tinmore]

nah man you may be right but how can you say hamas is the lesser? I don't see Israelis sneaking into gaza with bombs on their chests trying to blow themselves up in front of bakeries.

No but Israel shoots at them from the perimeter like fish in a barrel.

so watching the border and defending it is the same as blowing yourself up in front of a private business. Interesting logic.

Shooting at farmers picking beans is defending the border?

Wait---there is no border!

 

[Liberty]

No but Israel shoots at them from the perimeter like fish in a barrel.

so watching the border and defending it is the same as blowing yourself up in front of a private business. Interesting logic.

Shooting at farmers picking beans is defending the border?

Wait---there is no border!

right.

 

[P F Tinmore]

so watching the border and defending it is the same as blowing yourself up in front of a private business. Interesting logic.

Shooting at farmers picking beans is defending the border?

Wait---there is no border!

right.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpscgOR2dxQ]YouTube - Farming Under Fire[/ame]

 

[Kalam]

Damn. Kalam makes a lot of sense and logical points on other topics on USMB, but on this topic I am saddened he supports suicide bombings and such of innocent people.

Nah, I don't support targeting innocents. To me, Hamas is simply the least of many evils, Israel and al-Qa'idah being chief among them. They aren't immune from my criticism.

nah man you may be right but how can you say hamas is the lesser? I don't see Israelis sneaking into gaza with bombs on their chests trying to blow themselves up in front of bakeries.

They only did that in Egypt.

Lavon Affair - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In all seriousness, I don't see how murdering civilians from the safety of an airplane cockpit is more honorable than self-detonating in a crowded market. Israel's destructive policies vis-a-vis Palestine and the Gaza Strip, especially the blockade, make resistance necessary. Hamas may venture outside the realm of the justifiable from time to time, but their aim of bringing an end to Israeli oppression is wholly legitimate in my mind.

 

[Liberty]

PF - the video is pretty disturbing but i have no idea what the context is, so I can't really change my mind very much by watchin git.

Kalam - Man idk. Hamas wants Israel absolutely gone. Israel just wants peace. That's the way I see it anyway. Israel makes truce offerings and such all the time, and Hamas just spouts hate and violence. As for the blackade, I don't understand the uproar. Ships of Iranian origin slipping passed israel to people who have dedicated their lives to murdering as many jewish people as possible. Iran, a country that supports Hamas, cargo ships...how else does Hamas get their rockets that are Iranian manufactured other than Iranian cargo ships? Why couldn't the ships just let Israel see that there was medical supplies or whatever (which was not the case in the situation earlier this year) and let them on their way. It is for the safety of everyone that the blockade and check points be used isnt it?

I would totally see your POV if I saw Hamas come out and say something to the effect of "all we want is peace, and are dedicated to the creation of an agreement that would create peace between all people of all religions." and after that, if israel starts killin people and everything, i would have to switch to your side obviously. But that's the opposite of what is happening.

 

[P F Tinmore]

PF - the video is pretty disturbing but i have no idea what the context is, so I can't really change my mind very much by watchin git.

Kalam - Man idk. Hamas wants Israel absolutely gone. Israel just wants peace. That's the way I see it anyway. Israel makes truce offerings and such all the time, and Hamas just spouts hate and violence. As for the blackade, I don't understand the uproar. Ships of Iranian origin slipping passed israel to people who have dedicated their lives to murdering as many jewish people as possible. Iran, a country that supports Hamas, cargo ships...how else does Hamas get their rockets that are Iranian manufactured other than Iranian cargo ships? Why couldn't the ships just let Israel see that there was medical supplies or whatever (which was not the case in the situation earlier this year) and let them on their way. It is for the safety of everyone that the blockade and check points be used isnt it?

I would totally see your POV if I saw Hamas come out and say something to the effect of "all we want is peace, and are dedicated to the creation of an agreement that would create peace between all people of all religions." and after that, if israel starts killin people and everything, i would have to switch to your side obviously. But that's the opposite of what is happening.

The context is that the farmers are tending their crops while Israel shoots at them.

Of course Israel wants peace but their version of peace is all of Palestine without the Palestinians. The real clunker in your argument is that Israel occupies Palestine. That gives Palestine the legal and moral high ground.

 

[P F Tinmore]

PF - the video is pretty disturbing but i have no idea what the context is, so I can't really change my mind very much by watchin git.

Kalam - Man idk. Hamas wants Israel absolutely gone. Israel just wants peace. That's the way I see it anyway. Israel makes truce offerings and such all the time, and Hamas just spouts hate and violence. As for the blackade, I don't understand the uproar. Ships of Iranian origin slipping passed israel to people who have dedicated their lives to murdering as many jewish people as possible. Iran, a country that supports Hamas, cargo ships...how else does Hamas get their rockets that are Iranian manufactured other than Iranian cargo ships? Why couldn't the ships just let Israel see that there was medical supplies or whatever (which was not the case in the situation earlier this year) and let them on their way. It is for the safety of everyone that the blockade and check points be used isnt it?

I would totally see your POV if I saw Hamas come out and say something to the effect of "all we want is peace, and are dedicated to the creation of an agreement that would create peace between all people of all religions." and after that, if israel starts killin people and everything, i would have to switch to your side obviously. But that's the opposite of what is happening.

That has been offered to Israel and Israel rejected it.

 

[Liberty]

PF - the video is pretty disturbing but i have no idea what the context is, so I can't really change my mind very much by watchin git.

Kalam - Man idk. Hamas wants Israel absolutely gone. Israel just wants peace. That's the way I see it anyway. Israel makes truce offerings and such all the time, and Hamas just spouts hate and violence. As for the blackade, I don't understand the uproar. Ships of Iranian origin slipping passed israel to people who have dedicated their lives to murdering as many jewish people as possible. Iran, a country that supports Hamas, cargo ships...how else does Hamas get their rockets that are Iranian manufactured other than Iranian cargo ships? Why couldn't the ships just let Israel see that there was medical supplies or whatever (which was not the case in the situation earlier this year) and let them on their way. It is for the safety of everyone that the blockade and check points be used isnt it?

I would totally see your POV if I saw Hamas come out and say something to the effect of "all we want is peace, and are dedicated to the creation of an agreement that would create peace between all people of all religions." and after that, if israel starts killin people and everything, i would have to switch to your side obviously. But that's the opposite of what is happening.

The context is that the farmers are tending their crops while Israel shoots at them.

Of course Israel wants peace but their version of peace is all of Palestine without the Palestinians. The real clunker in your argument is that Israel occupies Palestine. That gives Palestine the legal and moral high ground.

well, that is the apparent context. For all we know it could be manufactured propaganda, as I do not i see an israeli in uniform firing on people, for example. It's just not good enough to sway me much, although like i said it is disturbing.

Israel's version of peace is everyone just stop and live their lives. Can you show me where a leader of Israel came out to say their objective is to obliterate Palestine? I know you know the Hamas leadership has advocated the obliteration of Israel, yet you claim the opposite. How?

Also, it seems no one was hit, so it was probably just warning shots.

 

[Epsilon Delta]

The best part about this talking point is the total cynicism of those who use it; the cynicism in pretending like they give a rat's ass about gay rights, when they don't.

First of all, let's be clear on something for a second: the horrifying treatment of homosexuals in Palestine is not much different than the horrifying treatment of homosexuals in most underdeveloped countries today, or even developed countries not even a few decades ago. Does it make it right? No. The cynicism is in the pretension by morons who never got an education (i.e. the Sargent here) that somehow, out of nowhere, a viable gay rights movement should have developed in Palestine to fight for its rights (as they have had to fight for their rights everywhere), all the while their country has been militarily occupied for 40 years.

Now, I want to ask, do these people really believe that that could be possible under any stretch of the imagination? Do these people really think that gay rights just sort of fall from the sky, that they are just god given and that some countries have them and others don't? Let me ask the Sargent or Windbag here, would it be perfectly correct for Belgium to invade, occupy, and re-colonize Uganda, because there's no gay rights in Uganda? Would the Soviet Union have been justified in bombing America because Americans were "still lynching blacks," as Soviet propaganda would say?

No, the point that these people are making is the following: Imperialism is good, because we are better and we represent civilization and they're just a bunch of savages. The hypocrisy in the argument is totally blatant, even though they're too stupid to see it. Israel has been occupying Palestine since 1967; Palestinians have no freedom of movement or assembly or protest; people in Gaza cannot even leave Gaza. The entire political effort of the Palestinian people is focused on gaining an independent state and ending a brutal occupation. Where, in this environment of total blockade, economic and political, could gay rights activists properly function?

If you dumbshits gave a rat's ass about gay activism, you would recognize that the only way there'll be an LBGT rights or even any real religious and civil rights proper would need a free, independent government and a vibrant civil society, both impossible under the ISRAELI occupation of Palestine.

 

[P F Tinmore]

PF - the video is pretty disturbing but i have no idea what the context is, so I can't really change my mind very much by watchin git.

Kalam - Man idk. Hamas wants Israel absolutely gone. Israel just wants peace. That's the way I see it anyway. Israel makes truce offerings and such all the time, and Hamas just spouts hate and violence. As for the blackade, I don't understand the uproar. Ships of Iranian origin slipping passed israel to people who have dedicated their lives to murdering as many jewish people as possible. Iran, a country that supports Hamas, cargo ships...how else does Hamas get their rockets that are Iranian manufactured other than Iranian cargo ships? Why couldn't the ships just let Israel see that there was medical supplies or whatever (which was not the case in the situation earlier this year) and let them on their way. It is for the safety of everyone that the blockade and check points be used isnt it?

I would totally see your POV if I saw Hamas come out and say something to the effect of "all we want is peace, and are dedicated to the creation of an agreement that would create peace between all people of all religions." and after that, if israel starts killin people and everything, i would have to switch to your side obviously. But that's the opposite of what is happening.

The context is that the farmers are tending their crops while Israel shoots at them.

Of course Israel wants peace but their version of peace is all of Palestine without the Palestinians. The real clunker in your argument is that Israel occupies Palestine. That gives Palestine the legal and moral high ground.

well, that is the apparent context. For all we know it could be manufactured propaganda, as I do not i see an israeli in uniform firing on people, for example. It's just not good enough to sway me much, although like i said it is disturbing.

Israel's version of peace is everyone just stop and live their lives. Can you show me where a leader of Israel came out to say their objective is to obliterate Palestine? I know you know the Hamas leadership has advocated the obliteration of Israel, yet you claim the opposite. How?

Israel has always denied that there ever was a Palestine. It has always denied that there ever were Palestinians. I guess you can not claim to obliterate something you claim never existed. Israel's stated goal for over one hundred years is all of Palestine without the Palestinians.

Israel occupies Palestine therefore it is not unreasonable to want it gone.

 

[Epsilon Delta]

Israel's version of peace is everyone just stop and live their lives. Can you show me where a leader of Israel came out to say their objective is to obliterate Palestine? I know you know the Hamas leadership has advocated the obliteration of Israel, yet you claim the opposite. How?

Yeah, that's a big problem. You've only gotten half the story.


"There is no such thing as a Palestinian people... It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn't exist."
-- Golda Meir, statement to The Sunday Times, 15 June, 1969.

"How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to."
-- Golda Meir, March 8, 1969.

"We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!"
-- Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.


The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized .... Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for Ever."
-- Menachem Begin, the day after the U.N. vote to partition Palestine.

"[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the 'Beasts,"' New Statesman, June 25, 1982.

"(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls."
-- Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) Yitzhak Shamir in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988

"Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories."
-- Benyamin Netanyahu, then Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister, former Prime Minister of Israel, speaking to students at Bar Ilan University, from the Israeli journal Hotam, November 24, 1989.

"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.

"Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours...Everything we don't grab will go to them."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of the Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, Nov. 15, 1998.

"Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on trial."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, 25 March, 2001 quoted in BBC News Online

Don't believe me? Go ahead, pick any section of any quote and put in in quotes on Google. It's not like its a big secret.

Hamas is labeled a terrorist organization for saying the exact same things and doing the exact same things that the Israelis do. The difference being that Palestinians don't have tanks or clusterbombs or smart missiles or advanced targeting systems, because they're fucking poor. So they lob a rocket somewhere and they're terrorists.

Don't get me wrong here, Hamas are a bunch of thugs, just as terrible any of the thuggish political parties in many places that use fear, xenophobia and violence to manipulate people and gain more power. But when it comes down to it, they're lesser thugs than the Israelis, not because they're less 'evil' (whatever the hell that means), but simply because they don't have the means that the Israeli government has in imposing its force.

 

[Liberty]

Eh fair enough. I guess I am just naive, i just want everyone to chill the fuck out you know. haha. If I had to choose i'd still back israel probably though.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

Israel's version of peace is everyone just stop and live their lives. Can you show me where a leader of Israel came out to say their objective is to obliterate Palestine? I know you know the Hamas leadership has advocated the obliteration of Israel, yet you claim the opposite. How?

Yeah, that's a big problem. You've only gotten half the story.


"There is no such thing as a Palestinian people... It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn't exist."
-- Golda Meir, statement to The Sunday Times, 15 June, 1969.

"How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to."
-- Golda Meir, March 8, 1969.

"We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!"
-- Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.


The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized .... Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for Ever."
-- Menachem Begin, the day after the U.N. vote to partition Palestine.

"[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the 'Beasts,"' New Statesman, June 25, 1982.

"(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls."
-- Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) Yitzhak Shamir in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988

"Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories."
-- Benyamin Netanyahu, then Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister, former Prime Minister of Israel, speaking to students at Bar Ilan University, from the Israeli journal Hotam, November 24, 1989.

"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.

"Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours...Everything we don't grab will go to them."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of the Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, Nov. 15, 1998.

"Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on trial."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, 25 March, 2001 quoted in BBC News Online

Don't believe me? Go ahead, pick any section of any quote and put in in quotes on Google. It's not like its a big secret.

Hamas is labeled a terrorist organization for saying the exact same things and doing the exact same things that the Israelis do. The difference being that Palestinians don't have tanks or clusterbombs or smart missiles or advanced targeting systems, because they're fucking poor. So they lob a rocket somewhere and they're terrorists.

Don't get me wrong here, Hamas are a bunch of thugs, just as terrible any of the thuggish political parties in many places that use fear, xenophobia and violence to manipulate people and gain more power. But when it comes down to it, they're lesser thugs than the Israelis, not because they're less 'evil' (whatever the hell that means), but simply because they don't have the means that the Israeli government has in imposing its force.

And, of course, Arafart had said all of Palestine shall be liberated (including Tel-Aviv, Haifa, etc.). And the Hamas charter calls Jews pigs and monkeys.
Don't you see the pattern by now? Rabin and Peres, liberals, retreat from some land. Terror. To counter it, Netanyahu, an extreme rightist, is elected. He puts down terror. But the people of Israel really desire peace in the end, so they put him down and elect Barak, a liberal. He retreats from some land. Terror. So Sharon is elected. Puts down terror. He suffers from a stroke, and Olmert, more liberal, comes to power. He offers more land to Abbas. Abbas refuses. Terror. So Netanyahu is elected again to put down terror. And on and on it goes...