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SLClemens

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(Actually I think the author of this might be an American or at least American-based. It's a pity that bringing democray to Iraq wasn't the causis belli before the invasion started, or perhaps some of these ideas would have made it into American public discourse.)


(http://www.guardian.co.uk)



Iraq is not ready for democracy

Bush's plans for the Middle East are good - but it will be a long, hard slog

Fareed Zakaria
Wednesday November 12, 2003
The Guardian

Sometimes I think that President Bush's critics need to put up a sign somewhere in their rooms that reads: "Some things are true even if George Bush believes them." A visceral dislike for the president is boxing many otherwise sensible people into a corner, because they cannot bring themselves to agree with anything he says. How else to explain the churlish reaction among so many Democrats, Europeans and intellectuals to the president's speech on democracy in the Middle East last week? Whatever the problems - and I'll get to them - as a speech it stands as one of the most intelligent and eloquent statements by a president in recent memory. If it marks a real shift in strategy, it will go down in history as Bush's most important speech.
The president expanded on an analysis that he and national security adviser Condoleezza Rice have been veering toward for several months. He argued that a deficit of freedom and openness was at the heart of the Middle East's dysfunctions, that neither Islam nor Arab culture made liberty and democracy impossible there, and that American foreign policy had for too long supported a corrupt status quo that has been bad for the Arabs and bad for the west. "Sixty years of western nations excusing and accommodating the lack of freedom in the Middle East did nothing to make us safe," he noted.

To change policy and achieve his lofty ambitions, President Bush announced a "forward strategy for freedom" that must be adopted for decades to come. Here is the hole in the doughnut. The "forward strategy" is never fleshed out, not even in a few lines, has no substantive elements to it and no programmes associated with it. In fact, it is mentioned only at the tail end of the speech. What explains this strange mismatch between a powerful statement of goals and virtual silence about the means?

I think that the president - and many of his advisers - find it easy to embrace democracy but not the means to get there. Actually, they like one method. Let's call it the "silver bullet" theory of democratisation. It holds that every country is ready for democracy. It's just evil tyrants who stand in its way. Kill the tyrant, hold elections and the people will embrace democracy and live happily ever after. This theory is particularly seductive to neo-conservatives because it means that the one government agency they love - the military - is the principal force for democratisation around the world.

The second theory of democratisation could be called the "long, hard slog" (thanks, Mr Rumsfeld). It holds that genuine democracy requires the building of strong political institutions, a market economy and a civil society. In or der to promote democracy, in this vision, you need economic reform, trade, exchange programmes, legal and educational advances and hundreds of such small-bore efforts. The agencies crucial to this process are the state department, the US agency for international development, even, God forbid, the European Union and the United Nations. After all, the EU provides almost twice as much foreign aid as the US. And it is the UN that produces the much-heralded Arab development reports, which Bush quoted in his speech.

The president must see that the first strategy has reached its limits. We have used military force in Afghanistan and Iraq, and while it has rid those countries of evil dictatorships, it has not brought them democracy.

That goal remains fully dependent on the second strategy. And beyond Iraq and Afghanistan, unless Washington is going to invade all the countries of the Middle East, democracy will come only through a process of reform and modernisation. But the administration cannot bring itself to fully support this softer strategy of democratisation or call for more of it. (Real men don't do foreign aid.) American efforts to promote democracy, for example, take up about 6% of the US aid budget - just over $700m. Why not double this?

For many of the administration's ideologues, the long, hard slog toward liberal democracy is boring and unsexy. It means constant engagement, aid, multilateral efforts and a world, not of black and white, but of grey.

Jordan's Abdullah is a monarch, but he is a genuine liberaliser; his opponents in parliament are elected but reactionaries. In the only illogical part of his speech, Bush dismissed the idea that countries could be unready for democracy, and then devoted paragraphs to explaining why democracy would take time to flourish in the Middle East.

The neo-conservative writer Robert Kagan recently declared: "We do not really know how to build a liberal society ... But we do know a free and fair election when we see one." This is both defeatist and wrong. In fact, we know what makes a liberal society - independent courts and political institutions, markets, a free press, a middle class - but building it takes time and effort. If you cannot embrace that process, then you are not really embracing democracy.
 
It's a pity that bringing democray to Iraq wasn't the causis belli before the invasion started, or perhaps some of these ideas would have made it into American public discourse.

You're off the mark, Clemens.

The idea of introducing a democracy & liberating Iraq from the cruel dictatorship of your buddy Saddam was indeed discussed publicly by the Administration prior to combat. I will include exerpts for your convenience, but feel free to read the entire article.

Behold!

20 February 2003

http://usinfo.state.gov/topical/pol/usandun/03022004.htm

Trusting Saddam Hussein Not an Option, Bush Says

Administration concerned by Iraq's continued "defiance" of U.N. demands By Wendy S. Ross
Washington File White House Correspondent

Washington -- If Saddam Hussein does not disarm Iraq of its weapons of mass destruction as required by the United Nations, the United States with other willing nations will act to "defend the peace against an aggressive tyrant," President Bush said February 20.

"If war is forced upon us, we will liberate the people of Iraq from a cruel and violent dictator," Bush told a gathering of small business owners in Kennesaw, Georgia, where he stopped to discuss his tax reform proposals before continuing on to his ranch in Texas.

"Military action is this nation's last option," Bush said, but "trusting in the sanity and restraint of Saddam Hussein is not an option. Denial and endless delay in the face of growing danger is not an option," he said.

"America and our allies are called once again to defend the peace against an aggressive tyrant, and we accept this responsibility," he said.

"The Iraqi people today are not treated with dignity," Bush declared, "but they have a right to live in dignity. The Iraqi people today are not allowed to speak out for freedom, but they have a right to live in freedom.

"We don't believe freedom and liberty are America's gift to the world; we believe they are the Almighty's gift to mankind," Bush said, "and for the oppressed people of Iraq, people whose lives we care about, the day of freedom is drawing near."

Meanwhile, en route to Georgia, White House Press Secretary Ari Fleischer told reporters on Air Force One that the Bush administration continues to be "concerned about Iraqi defiance on the ground and their refusal to comply with the United Nations."

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/04/05/1049459861181.html

"What's important in the President's judgement is that the regime be disarmed and that the regime be changed so the Iraqi people can be free and liberated," Mr Fleischer said.

"Certainly any clear resolution about Saddam Hussein's fate helps provide some clarity to that.

"In the bigger scheme of things, it really doesn't matter because whether it is him or whether it isn't him, the regime's days are numbered and are coming to an end."

The US has ruled out a leading role for the United Nations in immediate post-war Iraq, saying Washington and its allies had earned top-status having given "life and blood" to the war effort and promised to include Iraqis in the process from day one.

"It would only be natural to expect that after having participated and having liberated Iraq, coalition forces, having given life and blood to liberate Iraq, that the coalition would have the leading role," US National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice said.

"I don't think anybody is surprised by that."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/iraq/issues_analysis/quotes.html

"I hope the good people of Iraq will remember our history, and not pay attention to the hateful propaganda of their government. America has never sought to dominate, has never sought to conquer. We've always sought to liberate and to free. Our desire is to help Iraqi citizens find the blessings of liberty within their own culture and their own traditions."
—George W. Bush;
Oct. 16 2002

(I'll include the following quotes as well, since there seems to be doubt in your mind as to what the United Nations thought prior to hostilities - consider it a bonus from the same link referenced above - NT)

"If Iraq co-operates fully, if we are allowed to do our work in a comprehensive manner, I think we can avoid a war. That's the hope of everybody, and that's what we're trying to do."
—Mohamed ElBaradei, head of the International Atomic Energy Agency;
Nov. 17, 2002

"Iraq appears not to have come to a genuine acceptance, even today, of the disarmament which was demanded of it."
—Hans Blix, chief UN weapons inspector;
Jan. 27, 2003

http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/08/21/delay.iraq/index.html

"Ladies and gentlemen, these critics are dead wrong," DeLay said. "Removing Saddam from power and liberating the Iraqi people would do more to advance the war against terror than any step we've taken yet."

http://www.msnbc.com/news/888590.asp

Whereas the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998 (Public Law 105338) stated that it should be the policy of the United States to support efforts to remove the regime headed by Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq and to promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace that regime;

Whereas on Oct. 16, 2002, the president signed into law House Joint Resolution 114 of the 107th Congress, the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002 (Public Law 107243), which provides congressional authorization for the use of military force against Iraq;

Whereas the United Nations Security Council, in Security Council Resolution 1441, adopted on Nov. 8, 2002, voted unanimously that Iraq “... will face serious consequences as a result of its continued violations of its obligations” to disarm in accordance with all relevant United Nations resolutions;

Whereas Iraq remains in material breach of the relevant United Nations resolutions;


I won't requote you, Clemens, now what do you say?
 
Thanks for the quotations and thanks for re-quoting them in full. To me these seem to confirm my position, namely that in justifying the invasion disarming Saddam was the primary objective and bringing about democracy was a secondary if not tertiary benefit. Inflating the supposed threat that Saddam posed to us and our invading troops only gave justification to the blast-away tactics we employed in the invastion, complete with cluster munitions and depleted uranium - were the main cause for invasion the Iraqi people themselves such tactics, followed up with roadblocks where confused drivers were shot for threatening behavior, and little initial concern over looting, I believe would have been reconsidered. But we were overcoming such a huge and immenent threat that of course we were justified in using whatever means necessary, and we're now paying the price for it.

If, on the other hand, disarming a largely empty threat had not been the main justification for invasion, and it had instead been the betterment of Iraqis, I believe the debate would have panned out very differently. For one, we would have had to consider the viability of Iraq when there are so many other places where betterment and democratization stand a much more viable chance. Even Afghanistan would have been a more logical choice for several hundred thousand personal and countless billions more dollars. As Zakaria (who, I believe, was actually for the invasion) suggests, bringing democray to a place such as Iraq is a very long, hard slog; it's one that, with all the pitfalls discussed in open public debate, is one I'm not sure Americans would have had the stomach for.

It's also one that may not have required invasion to make at least modest successes. A bit of US muscle was able to get 200+ UN weapons inspectors into Iraq. Why not use that same muscle to get 200 human-rights inspectors in, and pass resolutions requiring modest human-rights improvement? I don't think it would have worked completely, but it could have helped a bit. It also would send the message to neighboring states that we're really concerned about democratic rights, not securing the economic co-operation of unpopular dictators.

But as Zakaria notes, there's not much space for bravado and glamor in that sort of nation-building. And face it, spending US taxdollars in altruistic endeavors to help others has not been political viable within the US. Spending crazy amounts of money to blow up threats is, and this is a sad reflection of the reality that we need to change our priorities - and make democracy a genuine and not rhetorical part of our foriegn policy - before we go around the world telling others what's best for their societies.
 
Wait a minute.

It's a pity that bringing democray to Iraq wasn't the causis belli before the invasion started, or perhaps some of these ideas would have made it into American public discourse.

To me these seem to confirm my position, namely that in justifying the invasion disarming Saddam was the primary objective and bringing about democracy was a secondary if not tertiary benefit.

You can't have it both ways. What is your position?? Exactly what was confirmed?

Did you mean to say, "I was wrong, there was indeed talk of ridding Iraq of a brutal dicator and introducing a democracy before the invasion started!"?

Thank You.
 
Originally posted by NightTrain
Wait a minute.





You can't have it both ways. What is your position?? Exactly what was confirmed?

Did you mean to say, "I was wrong, there was indeed talk of ridding Iraq of a brutal dicator and introducing a democracy before the invasion started!"?

Thank You.

Of course there was indeed talk of ridding Iraq of a brutal dictator (mostly becuase Washington convinced us he threatened our well-being) and some beautiful rhetoric about introducing democracy to Iraq before the invasion started. This was not our causis belli. Our cause for war was the supposed threat Saddam posed to us (however much it may truly have been controlling the price of oil). If democratizing Iraq was cause enough for war, why did you never hear Bush say "start installing democracy or we're going to invade." No, the whole of his threats toward Saddam concerned WMDs.

And then of course Americans would bring democray with them, as we always do wherever we go.

If it had been about democray we could have been more patient, and poor George II could not have had the war he so desperately craved.
 
Of course there was indeed talk of ridding Iraq of a brutal dictator (mostly becuase Washington convinced us he threatened our well-being) and some beautiful rhetoric about introducing democracy to Iraq before the invasion started.

Thank You.

And then of course Americans would bring democray with them, as we always do wherever we go.

You make this sound like a bad thing & I detect issues. Let's hear them.

If it had been about democray we could have been more patient, and poor George II could not have had the war he so desperately craved.

Actually, that's exactly why this happened - in order to root out terrorism, the nations of the region need to shed their medieval systems and step up to the plate. Yep, it wasn't said publicly for obvious reasons, but there is a clear goal here.

It's the domino theory, and it's been covered time and time again, read up in other threads in this Iraq forum.
 
"And then of course Americans would bring democray with them, as we always do wherever we go."

Originally posted by NightTrain


You make this sound like a bad thing & I detect issues. Let's hear them.

No, it's just rather unsophisticated sarcasm!
 
And then of course Americans would bring democray with them, as we always do wherever we go."

That's right, the USA is the Great Satan!

You strike me as a liberal that's still pissed off that Gore's supporters were too stupid to vote correctly.

I'm just curious, am I right?
 
This gave me the giggles. Fighting sarcasm with sarcasm.

It seems obvious that installing a democracy was never a priority, for lots of the really good reasons SL gave. We planned a war, and we didn't plan for what was to come after. And it's also true that any reference the administration made prior to the war to bringing democracy to Iraq was just tacked on. As you yourself admit, the details weren't spoken of publically, but you insinuate that they were there. I see no evidence of that. And SL is right, there are many other places around the world that are more ripe for democracy. And SL is also right that there is little or no precedent for the US bringing democracy with them anywhere they go. And he is also right that the US is always much more willing to spend ungodly amounts on bigger better fireworks, but not on aid for development. Meanwhile, you NT, content yourself with pursuing an illusory contradiction of words, which really only ammounts to a slight hyperbole

And as for the domino theory, which has been brought up in other threads, but never accepted by opposing voices, it can work in many many ways. It seems much more likely that the dominoes will fall in the other direction: that by creating a vacuum and instability in the region, that instability could spread. We are already seeing attacks on Saudi Arabia, an admittedly fascist government that just happens to be our friend. What happens if that country gets destabalized too? We already know where many of their hearts lie. Saudis composed 15 of the 18 participants of 9/11. And another interesting point was brought up in the article which headed this thread: "Jordan's Abdullah is a monarch, but he is a genuine liberaliser; his opponents in parliament are elected but reactionaries." What happens if Abdullah looses his grip on his fair country too? If that's not enough, the ME is full of other countries, the majority of which were under our thumb before the war in Iraq. If Bush, in his pretty call for democracy in the ME, realized that he was talking about many a friendly regime, he certainly didn't let on in his speech. Pakistan? Good god...
 
Originally posted by NightTrain
That's right, the USA is the Great Satan!

You strike me as a liberal that's still pissed off that Gore's supporters were too stupid to vote correctly.

I'm just curious, am I right?

No, I'm still pissed off that I supported Nader, thinking that Bush wouldn't be much different from Gore.
 
Hello Bry

And it's also true that any reference the administration made prior to the war to bringing democracy to Iraq was just tacked on.

I don't buy it. It was referenced many, many times by Congress & the Administration - it was not an afterthought; it was part of the justification.

As you yourself admit, the details weren't spoken of publically, but you insinuate that they were there.

I was referring to the domino theory not being publicly promoted by the Administration - what grudging support we did have from a couple of countries in the middle east would have evaporated.

All of the middle eastern countries that had no love of Saddam were against his removal - they all see the writing on the wall and the leaders of that fair region are quite comfy in their positions of priviledge.

Meanwhile, you NT, content yourself with pursuing an illusory contradiction of words, which really only ammounts to a slight hyperbole

LOL

I fear my patience wears thin sometimes with people repeating the same old myths over and over again. Liberating the Iraqi people was indeed discussed prior to war & I felt Clemens was sidestepping.

But thanks for your scorecard.

It seems much more likely that the dominoes will fall in the other direction: that by creating a vacuum and instability in the region, that instability could spread.

I would be inclined to agree with you if not for one important fact : we're there to provide guidance, experience, knowledge, money, investors, and they'll not have to worry about national defense (which is a very real concern in that neck of the woods for all of those countries). I don't share your pessimism for Iraq's future, I think Iraq is on the right path.

How exactly would a successful democracy in the center of the middle east bring instability to the region? Sure, there'll be shaky moments as countries initiate revolution, but every modern nation has undergone growing pains of this sort.

We are already seeing attacks on Saudi Arabia, an admittedly fascist government that just happens to be our friend.

I realize you're in Spain, so you may be unaware of the recent change in most Americans opinion of Saudi. I have yet to speak to anyone that thinks they are our friends.

They're rat bastards and I think everyone knows it.

If that's not enough, the ME is full of other countries, the majority of which were under our thumb before the war in Iraq.

Um, what?
 
Originally posted by NightTrain

I fear my patience wears thin sometimes with people repeating the same old myths over and over again. Liberating the Iraqi people was indeed discussed prior to war & I felt Clemens was sidestepping.

But this was exaclty the problem - "liberating the Iraqi people" was billed as a bonus to our forceably disarming Saddam of weopons he didn't have. There was very little planning in terms of how to police Iraq once its regime collapsed. There also seems to have been no idea of how we'd bring about democracy. Remember General Jay stick-out-your-chest-and-say-you're-proud-to-be-an-American Garner and his plan for elections in 90 days? What a bunch of deluded imbiciles at the Pentagon with their passing fancies of democracy for Iraq.

If bringing democracy to Iraq were a serious objective before the war started it should have been hammered out at the UN multilaterally. And you know what, we would have actually got some more international support for such a platform. As it turned out, the French and Russians decided that they'ed stick by their own intelligence on WMDs, which turned out to be a lot more intelligent than ours. Now we're totally lacking in legitimacy because we've deomonstrated that we can't even work democratically with nations and groups that have more realistic goals of increasing democray in the M.E.
 

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