Morality and Religion

[Wolverine1984]

Many religious people claim that religion is our moral compass and that without religion society can not be moral.

Of course I strongly disagree with that argument , in my opinion religious society is definitely not a prerequisite for a moral one.

I would like to share with everyone a video i stumbled upon which addresses this very issue in a very thorough way :

WARNING: Video contains logical and reasonable thinking.

Morality 1: Good without gods - YouTube

 

[Artevelde]

I would never claim that it is impossible for morality to exist without a religious basis. That being said, most moral rules ultimately can be traced back to some religious foundation. That doesn't mean one has to accept the religious imperative to observe those moral rules.

 

[editec]

Morality and Religion

Many religious people claim that religion is our moral compass and that without religion society can not be moral.

Yes, that is true.

And in their case they might very well be right, too.

They might ONLY be acting decently out of fear for retribution from GOD.

You ought to avoid those people whenever possible because they are unknowingly telling you that they are sociopathic personalities who are only in check because they are morons.

 

[uscitizen]

I would never claim that it is impossible for morality to exist without a religious basis. That being said, most moral rules ultimately can be traced back to some religious foundation. That doesn't mean one has to accept the religious imperative to observe those moral rules.

Or is it the other way around? The religious foundation can be traced back to a moral rule?

 

[Artevelde]

I would never claim that it is impossible for morality to exist without a religious basis. That being said, most moral rules ultimately can be traced back to some religious foundation. That doesn't mean one has to accept the religious imperative to observe those moral rules.

Or is it the other way around? The religious foundation can be traced back to a moral rule?

No, if you look at it historically, you will see that religious beliefs mostly formed the basis for moral rules, not the other way round.

 

[AquaAthena]

"Morality and Religion"

You can have one without the other. Either one.

 

[Dragon]

I would never claim that it is impossible for morality to exist without a religious basis. That being said, most moral rules ultimately can be traced back to some religious foundation. That doesn't mean one has to accept the religious imperative to observe those moral rules.

Or is it the other way around? The religious foundation can be traced back to a moral rule?

No, if you look at it historically, you will see that religious beliefs mostly formed the basis for moral rules, not the other way round.

I disagree with both those ideas. Morality is a set of rules appropriate for public interaction given a particular set of material realities. Religion accommodates itself to this not only in moral precept, but also in its ideas of God. But it doesn't emerge from morality. It incorporates morality as a side thought.

EDIT: Part of that may need some explanation. Here's what I mean. In a pre-civilized, hunter-gatherer concept, most societies had no anthropomorphic Gods as later developed; they had a concept of nature and themselves as part of nature, and ideas of spirits and personified animal ideals taking part in religious legend. In the age of agrarian civilization, ideas of God as humanity perfected and writ large emerged, a power separate from and in control of nature, and in many cases one that created nature and man; the idea of man as dominant over nature replaced the idea o man as part of and subordinate to nature. Today, as we transition towards a more advanced version of civilization and are increasingly departing from the agrarian-civ norms, our religious ideas are again changing, as well as our morality. I believe we'll end up with an idea of God as indwelling spirit of nature, with all human concepts of God understood to be metaphors, and to a concept of man as the caretaker of nature rather than dominant over it.

 

[Artevelde]

Or is it the other way around? The religious foundation can be traced back to a moral rule?

No, if you look at it historically, you will see that religious beliefs mostly formed the basis for moral rules, not the other way round.

I disagree with both those ideas. Morality is a set of rules appropriate for public interaction given a particular set of material realities. Religion accommodates itself to this not only in moral precept, but also in its ideas of God. But it doesn't emerge from morality. It incorporates morality as a side thought.

EDIT: Part of that may need some explanation. Here's what I mean. In a pre-civilized, hunter-gatherer concept, most societies had no anthropomorphic Gods as later developed; they had a concept of nature and themselves as part of nature, and ideas of spirits and personified animal ideals taking part in religious legend. In the age of agrarian civilization, ideas of God as humanity perfected and writ large emerged, a power separate from and in control of nature, and in many cases one that created nature and man; the idea of man as dominant over nature replaced the idea o man as part of and subordinate to nature. Today, as we transition towards a more advanced version of civilization and are increasingly departing from the agrarian-civ norms, our religious ideas are again changing, as well as our morality. I believe we'll end up with an idea of God as indwelling spirit of nature, with all human concepts of God understood to be metaphors, and to a concept of man as the caretaker of nature rather than dominant over it.

I prefer real facts to wannabe New Age babble about man and nature.

 

[catzmeow]

No, if you look at it historically, you will see that religious beliefs mostly formed the basis for moral rules, not the other way round.

I disagree with both those ideas. Morality is a set of rules appropriate for public interaction given a particular set of material realities. Religion accommodates itself to this not only in moral precept, but also in its ideas of God. But it doesn't emerge from morality. It incorporates morality as a side thought.

EDIT: Part of that may need some explanation. Here's what I mean. In a pre-civilized, hunter-gatherer concept, most societies had no anthropomorphic Gods as later developed; they had a concept of nature and themselves as part of nature, and ideas of spirits and personified animal ideals taking part in religious legend. In the age of agrarian civilization, ideas of God as humanity perfected and writ large emerged, a power separate from and in control of nature, and in many cases one that created nature and man; the idea of man as dominant over nature replaced the idea o man as part of and subordinate to nature. Today, as we transition towards a more advanced version of civilization and are increasingly departing from the agrarian-civ norms, our religious ideas are again changing, as well as our morality. I believe we'll end up with an idea of God as indwelling spirit of nature, with all human concepts of God understood to be metaphors, and to a concept of man as the caretaker of nature rather than dominant over it.

I prefer real facts to wannabe New Age babble about man and nature.

Me too. The problem is that you haven't provided any, merely your opinions.

 

[Dragon]

I prefer real facts to wannabe New Age babble about man and nature.

If that's how you would characterize what I wrote, you clearly wouldn't know a "real fact" if it bit you on the ass.

Especially since you also believe, with no evidence provided whatsoever to back up your opinion, that religion gave rise to morality. The statements I made ARE real facts. I may or may not draw correct conclusions from them, but you are drawing your own conclusions from nothing but air.

 

[Ariux]

Many religious people claim that religion is our moral compass and that without religion society can not be moral.

Yes, China, North Korea, the USSR, etc. are such shining examples of the morality of a religion-free nation.

Your youtube video likewise wouldn't stand scrutiny.

 

[Dragon]

Many religious people claim that religion is our moral compass and that without religion society can not be moral.

Yes, China, North Korea, the USSR, etc. are such shining examples of the morality of a religion-free nation.

None of them is an example of a religion-free nation, moral or otherwise, and none of them is an example of a nation where personal morality has been shown to be any worse than anywhere else, either.

Did you think just tossing out the names of countries that Americans tend to have a reflexively bad opinion of would let you get away with implicitly claiming something about them for which there is no evidence? People do have the capacity to think, you know, and some of us at least will insist on doing it.

 

[CausingPAIN]

Viewed Videos 1-3 Q&A time….
So, I am a Degenerated HELL FODDER? Fine..
And my path to morality is to educate myself in schools?
Fine, all schools are equal, and some are downright twisted
In what books are allowed during my academic Indoctrination
process, let along the ones they write the books for me at the school.
So, I may understand better the failings of religious immorality and suppression
of my weaker human beings, along with the fleecing of ones personal property etc.? I recall Adam and Eve, You know popped onto this world out of nowhere in the begin thing. There was no schools? They did not have any formally education understanding this morality? The whole story could be different, Adam went the bestiality route first and came back to Eve and she was ok with this?

Lastly, the religious control of the weak by, made up or stolen powers and control
through fears, intimidation, suppression of science and knowledge, and the restriction
of progress in the community on the whole in some cases. That being said, I do find some of gatherings and function entertaining from time to times of these groups. Where did he address this point of no schooling in the material in part or whole? I can go for genetics for now..TBD?

 

[Wolverine1984]

I would never claim that it is impossible for morality to exist without a religious basis. That being said, most moral rules ultimately can be traced back to some religious foundation. That doesn't mean one has to accept the religious imperative to observe those moral rules.

I believe that moral behavior predates religious morality.
There are many religions who are not moral and do not promote morality. I believe that religion was invented to "enforce" moral rules. (If you'll not be good god will punish you.)

 

[Wolverine1984]

Many religious people claim that religion is our moral compass and that without religion society can not be moral.

Yes, China, North Korea, the USSR, etc. are such shining examples of the morality of a religion-free nation.

Your youtube video likewise wouldn't stand scrutiny.

I never said that if someone does not believe in god he automatically becomes a moral person.
So I don't see how your example is relevant. We all know that there are religiously ruled countries who's morality "score" is not lower then the countries you mentioned.

For high morality values and growth a given regime must allow and encourage the freedom of thought (Which religion restricts),education, and intellectual resources.

 

[Youwerecreated]

Many religious people claim that religion is our moral compass and that without religion society can not be moral.

Of course I strongly disagree with that argument , in my opinion religious society is definitely not a prerequisite for a moral one.

I would like to share with everyone a video i stumbled upon which addresses this very issue in a very thorough way :

WARNING: Video contains logical and reasonable thinking.

Morality 1: Good without gods - YouTube

Morality 1: Good without gods - YouTube

Very simple answer as to what the moral compass really is,it's our conscience. There are those who are insane and even warp their conscience.

No matter the Ideology,i include the atheists and evolutionists in this category. The reason there are morals in all walks of life is because the unseen force that speaks to our hearts about what is right and what is wrong. It's the conscience that God gave to all it surely is not product of evolution.

 

[Dragon]

Very simple answer as to what the moral compass really is,it's our conscience. There are those who are insane and even warp their conscience.

No matter the Ideology,i include the atheists and evolutionists in this category. The reason there are morals in all walks of life is because the unseen force that speaks to our hearts about what is right and what is wrong
.

That's not an explanation, it's giving up on finding one.

I guess you can say that conscience is an "unseen force," in that it is not an object capable of reflecting light and therefore cannot be literally seen by the eyes, any more than an idea or a feeling, but like an idea or a feeling that doesn't make it incomprehensible. Conscience is a feeling, a sense of what should or should not be done, a moment-by-moment value judgment. Like so much else in human behavior, it is partly innate and partly learned. The innate part comes from our evolutionary history as social primates; we live in communities, not alone, and those communities survive better when its members adhere to some basic standards of interpersonal behavior and don't behave with complete selfishness and disregard for one another's needs.

The learned part is the way we are taught to behave by our parents, authorities in our lives, our peers. These teachings shape our innate tendency to form a conscience and give it form and specifics. It seems to function much like language. We have an innate, inherited tendency to talk and to learn language, but not to learn or speak any particular[/I language; the actual language we speak is learned. Same with morality. We have an instinctive, inherited tendency to govern our own behavior for the sake of the community and others, but the specifics can be changed by learned moral codes.

There's really nothing mysterious about it at all.

 

[Youwerecreated]

Very simple answer as to what the moral compass really is,it's our conscience. There are those who are insane and even warp their conscience.

No matter the Ideology,i include the atheists and evolutionists in this category. The reason there are morals in all walks of life is because the unseen force that speaks to our hearts about what is right and what is wrong
.

That's not an explanation, it's giving up on finding one.

I guess you can say that conscience is an "unseen force," in that it is not an object capable of reflecting light and therefore cannot be literally seen by the eyes, any more than an idea or a feeling, but like an idea or a feeling that doesn't make it incomprehensible. Conscience is a feeling, a sense of what should or should not be done, a moment-by-moment value judgment. Like so much else in human behavior, it is partly innate and partly learned. The innate part comes from our evolutionary history as social primates; we live in communities, not alone, and those communities survive better when its members adhere to some basic standards of interpersonal behavior and don't behave with complete selfishness and disregard for one another's needs.

The learned part is the way we are taught to behave by our parents, authorities in our lives, our peers. These teachings shape our innate tendency to form a conscience and give it form and specifics. It seems to function much like language. We have an innate, inherited tendency to talk and to learn language, but not to learn or speak any particular[/I language; the actual language we speak is learned. Same with morality. We have an instinctive, inherited tendency to govern our own behavior for the sake of the community and others, but the specifics can be changed by learned moral codes.

There's really nothing mysterious about it at all.

I'm am sure a nonintelligent source of creation would think of such a mechanism,to help guide us through our lives.

 

[Wolverine1984]

Many religious people claim that religion is our moral compass and that without religion society can not be moral.

Of course I strongly disagree with that argument , in my opinion religious society is definitely not a prerequisite for a moral one.

I would like to share with everyone a video i stumbled upon which addresses this very issue in a very thorough way :

WARNING: Video contains logical and reasonable thinking.

Morality 1: Good without gods - YouTube

Morality 1: Good without gods - YouTube

Very simple answer as to what the moral compass really is,it's our conscience. There are those who are insane and even warp their conscience.

No matter the Ideology,i include the atheists and evolutionists in this category. The reason there are morals in all walks of life is because the unseen force that speaks to our hearts about what is right and what is wrong. It's the conscience that God gave to all it surely is not product of evolution.

To disprove your argument one may argue that what's 'right and wrong' was not at all consistent. If god "wispers" within us , how come people have different moral values in different times in history and in different geographical regions ? For example in acncient times (well and not so ancient) it was morally acceptable to own slave and treat them as property.

Actually it's like Dragon said , morality is a learned behavior, and it's largely depends on education and social behavior.

 

[Youwerecreated]

Many religious people claim that religion is our moral compass and that without religion society can not be moral.

Of course I strongly disagree with that argument , in my opinion religious society is definitely not a prerequisite for a moral one.

I would like to share with everyone a video i stumbled upon which addresses this very issue in a very thorough way :

WARNING: Video contains logical and reasonable thinking.

Morality 1: Good without gods - YouTube

Morality 1: Good without gods - YouTube

Very simple answer as to what the moral compass really is,it's our conscience. There are those who are insane and even warp their conscience.

No matter the Ideology,i include the atheists and evolutionists in this category. The reason there are morals in all walks of life is because the unseen force that speaks to our hearts about what is right and what is wrong. It's the conscience that God gave to all it surely is not product of evolution.

To disprove your argument one may argue that what's 'right and wrong' was not at all consistent. If god "wispers" within us , how come people have different moral values in different times in history and in different geographical regions ? For example in acncient times (well and not so ancient) it was morally acceptable to own slave and treat them as property.

Actually it's like Dragon said , morality is a learned behavior, and it's largely depends on education and social behavior.

I didn't say that God was that voice.

We are all slaves in some form to survive.