Moral question for Americans

[HoleInTheVoid]

Got no beef with that, though I wouldn't say that talking with terrorists legitimizes them.

One factor that is important in the emergence of a democracy is the will of the people, democracy can't really be imposed on a society from outside if the people aren't for it, see civil unrest.

I think soft power that encourages any people within a repressive regime to stand for change, wherever that may be, is another useful tactic that requires no aggression on our part.

Actually democracy can be imposed, see Japan c. 1945. A proud people with no previous experience with consensual government conquered by force; yet, they are one of the most refreshing voices in civilized government.

I studied under David Coburn, a world recognized Professor and now a Vice Provost but I don't give a damn what you think

The world has recognized many idiots: Gore Vidal, Howard Zinn, Chomsky, Albert Gore etc. all with many "credentials" to their names.

BTW - if you didn't care what he thinks you A) wouldn't have responded and B) wouldn't be trying to correct him with dispute and ridicule (although it seesm you're a bit thin on the argumentation of facts).

 

[Caligirl]

Actually democracy can be imposed, see Japan c. 1945. A proud people with no previous experience with consensual government conquered by force; yet, they are one of the most refreshing voices in civilized government.

The operative phrase is that the people have to be for it. Encouraging democracy from the inside is a useful tactic.

 

[HoleInTheVoid]

The operative phrase is that the people have to be for it. Encouraging democracy from the inside is a useful tactic.

Without dispute. In the case of Japan, the Japanese people had no experience with consensual government to know whether or not they should embrace it, fear it or hate it. What they did know is Gen McArthur handed them his thoughts on a piece of yellow legal paper.

Now, encouraging self-governance from within to enable a people to join the world community of civilized nations is in-grained in US military thinking. Consider US military doctrine on OOTW (Operations Other Than War) and particularly the nature of the US army's Green Berets.

Our biggest challenge with Iraq--as contrasted with post-bellum Japan--is the fact that arab/muslim society is one giant fatalistic kleptocracy whereas the Japanese were a people prided on self-discipline.

 

[DiveCon]

OK, so we committed the worst genocide in world history(Native Americans), we funded slavery for 250 years and then committed the "Jim Crow" era of Separate but Equal BS for another 100 years where in many parts of the country a normal Friday night meant going to a lynching a you have the nerve to talk to anyone else about their atrocities? Learn your own history first before you start running your mouth.

And yes, what the Dutch did in S. Africa was absolutely gross, but a close fiend of mine is the Chancellor of Saba which is a apart of the Netherlands Antilles and he is always talking about how to rectify that situtation. I met the President of Germany(Schroeder) in 2005 and he was talking about trying to do what is right about WW2 and what do we do here? We say, "I didn't do slavery, or blacks need to get over it." Great attitude though we love to talk about what the Chinese, Russians, or what Sadaam Hussein was doing to his people. I'M SO SICK OF THE HYPOCRACY!

uh, you think it was JUST in South Africa?
then you are seriously deficient in your world history

 

[DiveCon]

Definitely not surprising especially coming from an Alpha male military man who can't even deal with Homosexuality. And I love how your talking to someone with their P.H.D in History yet I'm retarded. Did you even go to school?

You'd think that evolution would have gotten rid of all the cavemen, but then you show up sir to remind us that you still exist. Go vote for McCain Neanderthal

you should sue that school for not teaching you correctly then

 

[DiveCon]

Dutchguy,

You presume that we live in a real demcoratic republic.

You presume that the American people have far more power over their government's actions than we do.

Tell me, how much control do you personally have over Royal Dutch Shell?

Zero, right?

Well, that's exactly how much power I have over Exxon-Mobile, sport.

well stated

 

[DiveCon]

don't try to be logical with this bunch.

they don't see it as bullying or aggression... they see it as somehow our right to do as we please regardless of how that impacts the rest of the world.

Americans are stupid and selfish...it's really that simple.

you only speak for yourself

 

[DiveCon]

Oh for heaven's sake.

Americans are not as dumb as a box of rocks. PEOPLE, the world over, can sometimes be motivated by fear. You're not going to erase that - it's hardwired. Best you can do is appeal to their better instincts.

the difference i see is how they respond to it
Americans tend to take it straight on, the europeans tend to attempt to appease
i'll take the American way, thank you

 

[DiveCon]

The bullying is Bush's aggression over diplomacy. And, we went into Iraq without a UN resolution, I think. That said "we don't care what anyone else thinks, we're doing it anyway."

You can say whatever you want about the UN, but I think anyone outside the US sees the invasion as a pretty bullyish move.

OH CRAP, not THIS nonsense again

 

[DiveCon]

idiot! I don't need to move or leave asshole. I'm free to think and say whatever I want... that's the beauty of this stupid, selfish country... now go jerk off with some icy-hot and STFU!

i'd call that a guilty plea

 

[DiveCon]

Ya, support of allies is a nice thing isn't it?

you mean like 49 allies?
when you think there are only about 180 in the UN, i would say 49 is a sizable group

 

[editec]

Actually democracy can be imposed, see Japan c. 1945. A proud people with no previous experience with consensual government conquered by force; yet, they are one of the most refreshing voices in civilized government.

We actually bribed Japan into democracy. First by reindistrializing them secondly by giving the the right to import goods into this nation.

Hey, sometimes bribery is the cheapest path to peace.

All Japans friendship with us, basically cost Americans originally was our auto industry.

The world has recognized many idiots: Gore Vidal, Howard Zinn, Chomsky, Albert Gore etc. all with many "credentials" to their names.

I know Howard Zinn, personally.

You may not like his presuppositions, hence you will hate his conclusions, but he he's no idiot.

He's a world war II hero, did you know that?

He was in that win of the Army Air Corps which has the highest rate of fatalities of any unit (of any service!) in that war.

 

[AVG-JOE]

uh, you think it was JUST in South Africa?
then you are seriously deficient in your world history

The only difference between S. Africa and the United States, other than time of existence, is that the colonizers in the US found higher profit importing Africans for labor and eliminating the indigenous population. They really fucked things up!

If my other ancestors had been easier to enslave, we would have had an apartheid situation here that would have made S. Africa pretty pale by comparison.

-Joe

 

[DiveCon]

The only difference between S. Africa and the United States, other than time of existence, is that the colonizers in the US found higher profit importing Africans for labor and eliminating the indigenous population. They really fucked things up!

If my other ancestors had been easier to enslave, we would have had an apartheid situation here that would have made S. Africa pretty pale by comparison.

-Joe

are you refering to the horrible treatment of the Native Americans(btw, i'm 1/64th native)

on that i can agree
but at least some have learned to remember the past but not hold it over others heads forever

 

[Haro]

The American Experiment is the culmination of Western Civilization, birthed from the European conquest of the world. Western Civilization basis its success and growth on property ownership and wealth accumulation.

Ever since powerful wealth migrated from Europe and established itself in America, it has attempted to do what Western Civilization has been training it to do since Alexander The Great - accumulate as much as you can to call your own.

The American Experiment was not a shift away from those values, it is an attempt to bring access to wealth accumulation into the hands of people who are willing to work for it as well as those whose families were of nobel decent. The vast, poorly defended resources of the Americas, combined with the marketplace of Europe made hard work a viable vehicle to true wealth.

America is only 230 years old and now that the resources of this continent are pretty much claimed, we are now dealing with wealth's attempt to consolidate power as a way to protect itself. Just like Louie the 14th did in France in the 1600's, giving us The French Revolution... America now, like France then, is the big kid on the block. The biggest difference is that we don't have a greedy face to attach to our troubles. The good news is that in America, there is enough powerful wealth that true competition for power exists. American power has many faces of wealth... they and their lobbyists are all competing to be king.

This competition among the wealth for power, while it is a major pain in the ass, is much better than having concentrated control in the form of a dictator or king. Join us in hoping that We, The People can soon rid our government of the fence of professional lobbying that separates us from our representatives in government.

-Joe

Sounds like someone is still sore from the revolution...American Experiment,wtf? That is what the British called America during the Civil War when they thought we were done.

 

[MichaelCollins]

I am just amazed that the US hasnt had another civil war.

How can the educated minority cope living with so many redneck hillbillys?

I think that the US should break into 2.

The first world states should simply form a new union and discard the third world ones. I mean there simply is no place on earth as backward as the jesus freak states of the US.

 

[frazzledgear]

Dear Americans,

I have a moral question for you people.

I want all American people to ask them selfs this question:

If you had a neighbourhood bully living in your street who constantly intimidates you and tells you what to do and threatens you with force everytime you wouldnt comply with his demands,

A bully that would go into your garden and would take anything he wants from you and tells you what you should grow or have in your garden.
What would you do?

Seriously people?
What would you do?

Would you allow the neighbourhood bully to reign in your neighbourhood?
Or would you stand up to him with all of your neighbours?

Im quite sure all of you people agree that the bully should be stopped.
Because no one wants a tirant to reign their neighbourhoods.

So, why in Gods name do you allow your government to act this way?

In my and almost all the rest of the worlds view America has become the Worlds bully, thinking it has the legitimicy to act as the world police and constantly telling other people and coutries how to live their lives and puting up sanctions on country's that do not reply.
Invading countries for oil and saying it was to search for weapons of mass destruction.
As i recall the first thing American troops did when invading Iraq was making sure the ministry of oil was well protected.
Were there weapons of mass destruction there?
Or was it for oil only?

Don't get me wrong, i love America, at least i used to love America as an European. It was a great country and still could be.
But this new politics is killing America and all it stands for!

After 8 years of scare tactics by the Bush administration and probably the worsed financial and foreign policy ever in American history how can anyone vote for senator McCain?

.....The only way forward to a better world is by understanding and dialoque.
War can give advantages on the short run, but in the long run it will allways have great consequences for the bully and its people.
Look at history, all of the worlds bully's and their countries will eventually fall...

Please read some non-US news sites on situations in the world and look at situations from both sides.

Unless you are going to take into serious consideration any similar lectures from us about how much we have come to dislike your country and its decaying and ever more immoral society, what disdain we hold YOUR elected leaders, our opinions about the poor choices your government and citizens have made, pointing out the backstabbing foreign policies of so many European countries, the same stupid European belief in appeasement of the most dangerous thugs in the world in spite of seeing firsthand it doesn't work, the blatant envy of many European countries who think they are somehow more "entitled" to the wealth we created for ourselves but the envying European nations didn't, won't and can't create themselves due to their love of historically proven failures of economic policies, the fact that Americans know good and well that treaties with our European "allies" is a one way street with only tokenism in reciprocation, that European support for the US is superficial and disappears almost entirely when the US refuses to wallow in victimhood, the fact we know most European countries can only yawn when seeing millions suffer under brutal regimes elsewhere and until they are finally the next target do nothing but expend empty words about it, base their foreign policy strictly on their own pocketbook while pretending to have a concern and altruism for others in the world that doesn't exist, believe that freedom is their own right while easily dismissing it as important to other peoples of the world -and agree to give serious consideration to voting for the candidate WE think is a better choice for the entire world and who we think is actually best for OUR country and more in sync with our own worldview -then I suggest you back off. Foreign endorsements are never something a Presidential candidate wants because it so often angers Americans -and rightly so. Foreigners never have OUR best interests in mind and everyone knows it. And your trite repitition of propaganda is only proof of that.

If the US had done a fraction of what you said, it would be a much different world than the one that actually exists. And it shouldn't take someone with a vast knowledge of history to know that either. If you believe the world would be a better place without the US, that it is primarily to blame for all the ills of the world, that were it not for the US the whole world would be joining hands and singing Kumbaya -then you live in an alternate dimension. And might want to give serious consideration to putting down that bong.

Instead of whining about how the US needs to become more like far less successful countries who all too often put the best interest of their pocketbook against the very lives of millions suffering and dying under a brutal regime elsewhere in the world, spend far less time mouthing empty and useless trite phrases and far more time actually backing up its words and proving they really do have meaning -if more countries figured out what has made the US so successful in the first place, what really motivates the US to go to war when it does, the true nature of those enemies we do go against when that says far more than the propaganda ever could, made sure thug dictators knew they would pay a heavy price for their brutality against their own as well as against other nations - and far more countries tried to emulate the US more instead of railing in envy against it -then I think the world would be a far better place frankly.

 

[Haro]

I am just amazed that the US hasnt had another civil war.

How can the educated minority cope living with so many redneck hillbilly's?

I think that the US should break into 2.

The first world states should simply form a new union and discard the third world ones. I mean there simply is no place on earth as backward as the jesus freak states of the US.

..I think this guys is serious.
1.Well let me tell u the truth, if you counted the percent of the population voting based on the issues, you would be using decimals and a lot of zeros.
2.You should just stick with your caviliers and roundheads.
3.There are no third world states
4.Never speak ill of any of the states, EVER

 

[HoleInTheVoid]

Remember when liberals used to claim to be for "the little guy"?

I am just amazed that the US hasnt had another civil war.

How can the educated minority cope living with so many redneck hillbilly's?

I think that the US should break into 2...

My guess is:

A bunch of disarmed candy-assed metrosexuals are too worried about breaking a nail to actually get off their cowardly butts let alone endure the hardships of prolonged warfare. So instead they sit back and make excuses for their cowardice by pretending they're sophisticted enough to negotiate with jihadists while lamenting the "Jesus" freaks next door.

The reason why conservatives don't act is because we're certain that betwen preaching homosexulaity, birth control, women despising male sexuality and abortion you people will exterminate yourselves in 3 generations.

 

[Haro]

Remember when liberals used to claim to be for "the little guy"?


My guess is:

A bunch of disarmed candy-assed metrosexuals are too worried about breaking a nail to actually get off their cowardly butts let alone endure the hardships of prolonged warfare. So instead they sit back and make excuses for their cowardice by pretending they're sophisticted enough to negotiate with jihadists while lamenting the "Jesus" freaks next door.

The reason why conservatives don't act is because we're certain that betwen preaching homosexulaity, birth control, women despising male sexuality and abortion you people will exterminate yourselves in 3 generations.

Listen straight now, what country do you currently live in so I do not make any false accusations.