modern day crucifiction

[Avatar4321]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050620/ap_on_re_eu/romania_exorcism_death

I saw the title and i was like woah i didnt think that happened any more. that poor nun.

 

[5stringJeff]

I never could understand how a Christian, who has the Holy Spirit in them, could be accused of being possessed by a demon.

 

[Avatar4321]

I never could understand how a Christian, who has the Holy Spirit in them, could be accused of being possessed by a demon.

Christ was. And i know none of us are greater than He is.

 

[5stringJeff]

Christ was. And i know none of us are greater than He is.

Let me rephrase that...

I never could understand how a Christian, who has the Holy Spirit in them, could logically be accused of being possessed by a demon.

 

[Bonnie]

Let me rephrase that...

I never could understand how a Christian, who has the Holy Spirit in them, could logically be accused of being possessed by a demon.

Jeff it happens and not just in movies, people leave themselves open to demonic attack sometimes without even realizing it. It is very RARE but also possible. That said..what these people did to this poor nun is a disgrace, true exorcisms are not about stuffing towels and cruelty, they are about careful psychological testing first and foremost by priests that have their Phd's in Psychology, then if the findings are truly demonic attack, prayer, blessings, and fasting by very holy and loving priests that are trained specifically to do this happen.

This horrible incident just gives all non believers more fodder for ridicule.....

 

[5stringJeff]

Jeff it happens and not just in movies, people leave themselves open to demonic attack sometimes without even realizing it. It is very RARE but also possible. That said..what these people did to this poor nun is a disgrace, true exorcisms are not about stuffing towels and cruelty, they are about careful psychological testing first and foremost by priests that have their Phd's in Psychology, then if the findings are truly demonic attack, prayer, blessings, and fasting by very holy and loving priests that are trained specifically to do this happen.

This horrible incident just gives all non believers more fodder for ridicule.....

But my question remains. Follow me here.

1. A Christian is indwelled by the Holy Spirit. (see 1 Corinthians 6:19)

2. Demon possession entails a demon indwelling a person. (see Matthew 17:14-18)

3. God is greater than the devil and his demons (see 1 John 4:4).

Therefore, if the Holy Spirit is already indwelling in a person, it is not possible for a demon to simultaneously possess that same person.

 

[Bonnie]

But my question remains. Follow me here.

1. A Christian is indwelled by the Holy Spirit. (see 1 Corinthians 6:19)

2. Demon possession entails a demon indwelling a person. (see Matthew 17:14-18)

3. God is greater than the devil and his demons (see 1 John 4:4).

Therefore, if the Holy Spirit is already indwelling in a person, it is not possible for a demon to simultaneously possess that same person.

Your question makes the assumption that those who become possessed indeed have the holy spirit in them pretecting them in the first place.

Many people just by virtue of daily sins remove God's protection, and may not even realize it, or if they have an over curiosity to things preto-natural they can leave themselves open. Which is why in my church we are taught to pray everyday for protection by saying rosaries, Chaplets of Mercy, also to recieve the sacrament of penance, and finally the host every week as the most potent form of protection. But again that is a perspective from my faith and yours may be different, but I do think the gist is the same.

 

[dmp]

Many people just by virtue of daily sins remove God's protection,

I would debate that - I don't think it's possible to remove ourselves, especially unknowingly from God's protection/Blessing/Favor. I'm unable to explain it much more than by this example:

I'm driving my car down the road. I see a space-ship in front of me. The ship launches a missile at me. Just before impact, I utter a 'God damn it!'. Assuming, for sake of argument, using that phrase is 'sin'. I think it's inconceivable I'd enter anyplace, after death, except wherever Christ is (Heaven, or wherever).

Re: left open for attack...
Generally, we are tempted by our flesh; not by demons. It's best to 'cling' to God's word, and surround ourselves with things of Him to prevent our fleshly temptations (be them drink, lust, lying, Democrat-Voting-For) from gaining ground. I do agree Christians - even true Christians who "have a clue" - can be open to demonic 'oppression' . But like Jeff, I believe it's 100% impossible for a Christian to be 'possessed'.

 

[dmp]

Your question makes the assumption that those who become possessed indeed have the holy spirit in them pretecting them in the first place.

Oh - and those who Accept Christ have The Holy Spirit - as God and Christ and THS are inseperable.

 

[5stringJeff]

Your question makes the assumption that those who become possessed indeed have the holy spirit in them pretecting them in the first place.

Yes - I am talking specifically about Christians. I do not doubt that a non-Christian could become demon-possessed. I'm claiming that Christians, by virtue of the Holy Spirit, cannot become demon-possessed.

 

[5stringJeff]

Just before impact, I utter a 'God damn it!'. Assuming, for sake of argument, using that phrase is 'sin'.

I think it's safe to assume that, in almost all usages, it would be a sin.

 

[dmp]

I think it's safe to assume that, in almost all usages, it would be a sin.

...so what about the rest of my reply?

 

[5stringJeff]

...so what about the rest of my reply?

I agree.

 

[Bonnie]

D...

Re: left open for attack...
Generally, we are tempted by our flesh; not by demons. It's best to 'cling' to God's word, and surround ourselves with things of Him to prevent our fleshly temptations (be them drink, lust, lying, Democrat-Voting-For) from gaining ground. I do agree Christians - even true Christians who "have a clue" - can be open to demonic 'oppression' . But like Jeff, I believe it's 100% impossible for a Christian to be 'possessed'.

I agree with you in many ways here save to say that our flesh tempting comes from Demons by virtue of original sin and is a constant struggle in one's life to overcome it, pride included in that. Your right without God's help we would not be able to resist, he is like our suit of armor.

But you raise a very good point regarding the stages of possession the first being infestation, the second being oppression, and the third being possession. So in that sense a true practicing Christian would probably never be possessed but rather live with oppression, which is no fun either....... Most people who become possessed ask for it to happen by dabbling in the black arts etc.

 

[dmp]

D...

I agree with you in many ways here save to say that our flesh tempting comes from Demons by virtue of original sin and is a constant struggle in one's life to overcome it, pride included in that. Your right without God's help we would not be able to resist, he is like our suit of armor.

we are tempted by our nature - our human nature - more often then not...not direct actual demonic temptation. We are tempted because we inhereted a sinful nature from our parents, who got it from their parents, etc...Right? is that what you're saying too?

 

[Bonnie]

we are tempted by our nature - our human nature - more often then not...not direct actual demonic temptation. We are tempted because we inhereted a sinful nature from our parents, who got it from their parents, etc...Right? is that what you're saying too?

The actual temptations come from the devil, but our natures dictate whether we give into those temptations, and yes our nature comes from original sin......But of course many other things play into that such as upbringing, faith, family, human experiences such as mistakes made, what and who we surround ourselves with, do we put ourselves in bad situations etc .

 

[deaddude]

And all of this is based on the assumption that demons exist at all. There is less evidence to support the existence of demons than there is to support the idea that we never landed on the moon.

Now assuming that demons exist how the hell do you identify which one is possessing the person in question. Is it a kitsune fox demon? Maybe it is Belial, or Baal, or Belphegor, or Mammon, or Mephistofolees, or Azazel, or a New Guinian shark demon or any one of the thousands of demons in cultures world wide.

Third, are there any demons that only respond to specific exorcisms? Answer: yes. If a priest identifies the symptoms or what ever as coming from a leshy possession than does he use the obviously pagan rite necessary to expel it.

Demonology is interesting and all, but applying this shit should be approached with serious caution.

 

[Bonnie]

And all of this is based on the assumtion that demons exist at all. There is less evidence to support the existance of demons than there is to support the idea that we never landed on the moon.

Well that depends on who you ask...

 

[deaddude]

Ok Bonnie, give some bit of objective evidence that Belphegor exists.

 

[Bonnie]

Ok Bonnie, give some bit of objective evidence that Belphegor exists.

Belphegor is one of many named demons that you probably have read about in your Occult books or if you have a copy of kabalist writings, he is more of a mythology type character and for that there probably is no hard unrefutable evidence. There is however evidence in the bible that Lucifer tempted Christ and since I am a Christian I'll take Christ's word for it. And there is that book that i had recommended to you a while back that gives a good deal of insight into everyday demonic opression.
That said I can also if you like give some first hand accounts that for me amounts to unrefuted proof but It would have to be somewhere else than on a public forum board. And I have had friends that were heavily into the black arts and Satan worship, let's just say it was fun at first but then it became a very big problem