Misian economic lecture ...two years ago

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Perhaps we can engage in a wider discussion of the socioeconomic effects of trade liberalization as a whole. Are those prepared to discuss it familiar with the infant industries argument and its application to claims of comparative advantage?

I believe we Misesians, Austrians, Libertarians, whatever you want to call us will argue that the infant industries argument is nonsense.

 

[Agnapostate]

I believe we Misesians, Austrians, Libertarians, whatever you want to call us will argue that the infant industries argument is nonsense.

Perhaps, but as I've said previously, it remains my contention that when it comes to the actual merits of the comparative advantage argument, trade liberalization promotes adverse socioeconomic impacts as long as heavily industrialized countries entice poorer and underdeveloped countries into remaining dependent on trade with them rather than utilizing their productive assets into forming a viable manufacturing and industrial sector of their own, much the same way that capitalism necessitates worker dependence on the wage provider, so that he may deprive them of the products of their labor.

I would recommend having a look at Ha Joon-Chang's Kicking Away the Ladder.

 

[Toro]

Perhaps, but as I've said previously, it remains my contention that when it comes to the actual merits of the comparative advantage argument, trade liberalization promotes adverse socioeconomic impacts as long as heavily industrialized countries entice poorer and underdeveloped countries into remaining dependent on trade with them rather than utilizing their productive assets into forming a viable manufacturing and industrial sector of their own, much the same way that capitalism necessitates worker dependence on the wage provider, so that he may deprive them of the products of their labor.

I would recommend having a look at Ha Joon-Chang's Kicking Away the Ladder.

I think the Asian-Pacific countries refute this line of thinking pretty well, given that Asian countries have industrialized in an integrated trading system.

 

[Agnapostate]

I think the Asian-Pacific countries refute this line of thinking pretty well, given that Asian countries have industrialized in an integrated trading system.

This wouldn't be related to the line of thought that considers Hong Kong to be a free market utopia, would it?

 

[midcan5]

I find it interesting that the cause of the rise of fascism and communism was capitalism. Marx didn't live in an imaginary world, he lived in a world in which unfettered capitalism enslaved all except the upper crust. Had capitalism worked there would be no need for laws that control labor, business, and markets. The dichotomy of freedom v state is nonsensical as the same people would cry murder if a business did something that ruined their business. Can one imagine a world in which there were no state? Would it be a jungle, probably, look at states/nations in which government is weak, would anyone want to live there? The grand assumption of free market believers grows from the fact the state has given them the freedom to be stupid.


"The ideas of economists and political philosophers, both when they are right and when they are wrong, are more powerful than is commonly understood. Indeed, the world is ruled by little else. Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influences, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist. Madmen in authority, who hear voices in the air, are distilling their frenzy from some academic scribbler of a few years back. I am sure that the power of vested interests is vastly exaggerated compared with the gradual encroachment of ideas.. But, soon or late, it is ideas, not vested interests, which are dangerous for good or evil." John Maynard Keynes

 

[Toro]

This wouldn't be related to the line of thought that considers Hong Kong to be a free market utopia, would it?

Again, there is no such thing as a free market utopia. That is a straw man, like an anarchist/socialist society, it doesn't exist.

Instead, we know that countries that have freer economies are richer.

 

[Zoomie1980]

I think the Asian-Pacific countries refute this line of thinking pretty well, given that Asian countries have industrialized in an integrated trading system.

Pacific-rim nations are among the most open market purely capitalistic economies in the world and also the fastest growing. No coincidence there. You not find a socialist economy anywhere in the top 20 in growth....most have been relatively stagnant for 20 years. India and China have exploded pretty much because they ditched socialism and state-management and essentially have become fascist states, particularly in the case of China.....

 

[Agnapostate]

Again, there is no such thing as a free market utopia. That is a straw man, like an anarchist/socialist society, it doesn't exist.

Instead, we know that countries that have freer economies are richer.

Your comment regarding anarcho-socialist societies not existing is inaccurate. As I have previously mentioned, the most expansive establishment of an anarcho-socialist society occurred during the Spanish Revolution, primarily in Catalonia.

The Spanish anarchist collectives do probably constitute the greatest example of the widespread benefits of libertarian socialism, specifically anarchism, in action. The author Sam Dolgoff estimated that about eight million people were directly or indirectly impacted by the Spanish Revolution and the anarchist collectives, and about two million workers directly participated in the collectivization process. According to Antony Beevor, an author on the Spanish Revolution, "The total for the whole of Republican territory was nearly 800,000 on the land and a little more than a million in industry. In Barcelona workers' committees took over all the services, the oil monopoly, the shipping companies, heavy engineering firms such as Volcano, the Ford motor company, chemical companies, the textile industry and a host of smaller enterprises. . . Services such as water, gas and electricity were working under new management within hours of the storming of the Atarazanas barracks . . .a conversion of appropriate factories to war production meant that metallurgical concerns had started to produce armed cars by 22 July . . . The industrial workers of Catalonia were the most skilled in Spain . . . One of the most impressive feats of those early days was the resurrection of the public transport system at a time when the streets were still littered and barricaded."

Another author, Jose Peirats, writes that, "Preoccupation with cultural and pedagogical innovations was an event without precedent in rural Spain. The Amposta collectivists organised classes for semi-literates, kindergartens, and even a school of arts and professions. The Seros schools were free to all neighbours, collectivists or not. Grau installed a school named after its most illustrious citizen, Joaquin Costa. The Calanda collective (pop. only 4,500) schooled 1,233 children. The best students were sent to the Lyceum in Caspe, with all expenses paid by the collective. The Alcoriza (pop. 4,000) school was attended by 600 children. Many of the schools were installed in abandoned convents. In Granadella (pop. 2,000), classes were conducted in the abandoned barracks of the Civil Guards. Graus organised a print library and a school of arts and professions, attended by 60 pupils. The same building housed a school of fine arts and high grade museum. In some villages a cinema was installed for the first time. The Penalba cinema was installed in a church. Viladecana built an experimental agricultural laboratory.

The collectives voluntarily contributed enormous stocks of provisions and other supplies to the fighting troops. Utiel sent 1,490 litres of oil and 300 bushels of potatoes to the Madrid front (in addition to huge stocks of beans, rice, buckwheat, etc.). Porales de Tujana sent great quantities of bread, oil, flour, and potatoes to the front, and eggs, meat, and milk to the military hospital.

The efforts of the collectives take on added significance when we take into account that their youngest and most vigorous workers were fighting in the trenches. 200 members of the little collective of Vilaboi were at the front; from Viledecans, 60; Amposta, 300; and Calande, 500."

It is estimated that eight to ten million people were directly or indirectly affected by the Spanish anarchist collectives. Author Leval has estimated 1,700 agrarian collectives, with 400 for Aragon, (although other estimates have been above 500), 900 for Levant, 300 for Castile , 30 for Estremadura, 40 for Catalonia, and an unknown number for Andalusia. He estimates that all industries and transportation were collectivized in the urban areas of Catalonia, (and indeed, 75% of all of Catalonia was estimated to have been collectivized in some way), 70% of all industries in Levant, and an unknown percentage in Castile.

The victories and social and economic benefits promoted in the Spanish Revolution through the implementation of libertarian socialist ideals, such as the establishment of syndicalism, voluntary association, and workers self-management strongly suggests that anarchist and libertarian socialist theories and practices are of a practical nature.

A more expansive summary of their existence can be found here.

Pacific-rim nations are among the most open market purely capitalistic economies in the world and also the fastest growing. No coincidence there. You not find a socialist economy anywhere in the top 20 in growth....most have been relatively stagnant for 20 years. India and China have exploded pretty much because they ditched socialism and state-management and essentially have become fascist states, particularly in the case of China.....

And Pinochet promoted economic growth...For ethical purposes, it's far more illustrative to examine the adverse socioeconomic consequences and circumstances promoted under capitalism, which notably increased under the neoliberal regimes of Reagan and Thatcher.