Minorities lag in AP test performance

[editec]

Let's assume for purposes of argument that different "races" of humans have statistically different IQs.

Okay, so what?

for an individual it should make no difference, you are who you are. but for group averages it does make a difference. the reason blacks do not perform as well in cognitively demanding fields is inherent ability not white racism. it should be expected that more whites pass will pass firefighters test, high school exams, and the labrynth of paperwork and taxes to become wealthy. its not (only)racism holding blacks back, mostly it is their ability. groups of whites and blacks of the same IQ will have very similar rates of success.

You know...if I had any reason to believe that we actually lived in a meritocractic society, I'd completely agree with you.

But we don't live in a place where merit necessarily means reward.

And if you're starting at the bottom of the heap, as most Blacks had to, then this fact that merit isn't rewarded in relationship to what you really contribute to society is very important.

 

[Tank]

And if you're starting at the bottom of the heap, as most Blacks had to, then this fact that merit isn't rewarded in relationship to what you really contribute to society is very important.

How are blacks at the bottom of the heap when they have been on earth thousands of years before the white man evolved.

 

[IanC]

Let's assume for purposes of argument that different "races" of humans have statistically different IQs.

Okay, so what?

for an individual it should make no difference, you are who you are. but for group averages it does make a difference. the reason blacks do not perform as well in cognitively demanding fields is inherent ability not white racism. it should be expected that more whites pass will pass firefighters test, high school exams, and the labrynth of paperwork and taxes to become wealthy. its not (only)racism holding blacks back, mostly it is their ability. groups of whites and blacks of the same IQ will have very similar rates of success.

You know...if I had any reason to believe that we actually lived in a meritocractic society, I'd completely agree with you.

But we don't live in a place where merit necessarily means reward.

And if you're starting at the bottom of the heap, as most Blacks had to, then this fact that merit isn't rewarded in relationship to what you really contribute to society is very important.

let's define things a bit more clearly. what do you consider meritocracy to entail? I think it involves intelligence, ability and character. if you are smart competent hard working and honest you have very good odds of being successful, whether you started at the bottom, middle or top. there is lots of evidence to show that intelligence is a major factor in success, character is more difficult to measure and assess. if character is considered to be some combination of completing education, working at a job(even temporarily a bad one), staying away from crime, and getting married before having children, then those traits have been shown to be almost surefire paths to success as well.

on the other hand you seem to think being black means being born in a hole that is impossible to get out of. I think there are millions of middle class blacks who would disagree with you. while it may be true that black parents are less able and less willing to sacrifice what it takes to give their children the best possible start in life that does not mean success is impossible or even improbable. get educated, work hard and be honest. that formula works for everybody almost all the time.

 

[maatsmom843]

Ya, thats it, blacks used to be smart

HOW could you possibly consider this a valid response to my post??

 

[IanC]

maatsmom said-

it is known (though the knowledge is constantly suppressed and skewed) that africans are the founders and fathers of what we consider civilized life. the mathematical, scientific, spiritual, and natural knoweledge that western (white) culture now possesses come directly from the mystery schools of ancient africa. the knowledge was passed from there, to the initiates at the Ionian college in ancient Greece, and on up and throughout the rest of europe.

tank said-

Ya, thats it, blacks used to be smart

seems like a reasonable retort.

why havent blacks 'stolen' their knowledge back? why do white countries have to send people to africa to dig wells for Chrissakes?

 

[maatsmom843]

our knowledge has been taken from us, history has been rewritten in a way so as to take from us any credit for our accomplishments and contributions to the history of the world and civilization, and ascribing them to white cultures.

this knowledge has become esoteric, suppressed from the masses, not to mention te very founders/discoverers of the mysteries; the mysticism associated with our ancestral heritage (ie the nubic and egyptian mysteries, sacred geometry, and astral and cosmological knowledge) have been misbranded as occult, associated with evil and witchcraft, and heathenism in the eyes of those who live under a monotheistic paradigm.

at the same time the authorities that propagandize the mysteries and true history as such are the very ones who are utilizing this information to further their own, evil ends.

add to that the facts that in the west, all other races are considered inferior to whites and the fact that Western monotheism has been shoved down the throats of almost all people of African descent in the world, it should be apparent why we have not been able to reclaim our knowledge or rightful place on the global stage

 

[Tank]

So it's whiteys fault that blacks are stupid?

 

[LilOlLady]

So it's whiteys fault that blacks are stupid?

Yes. AP test not designed with minorities in mind. It is designed for affluent whites. Poor white kids have problem with this test also. Minorities tend to be poor and not have the advantages of afluent white kids. This has been discussed time and again. When poor kids in poor neighborhood and schools get seconds in text books, this is what happens. No computers and not updated text books and second rated teachers.
Minorities have to work twice as hard to get ahead or equal as white elite. Not that they are dumb but because they are discriminated against.
Give them a chance and they will excel above white elite. But we cannot let that happen, uh?

 

[xsited1]

So it's whiteys fault that blacks are stupid?

Yes. AP test not designed with minorities in mind. It is designed for affluent whites. Poor white kids have problem with this test also. Minorities tend to be poor and not have the advantages of afluent white kids. This has been discussed time and again. When poor kids in poor neighborhood and schools get seconds in text books, this is what happens. No computers and not updated text books and second rated teachers.

I thought more whites were on welfare than blacks. What did I miss?

 

[IanC]

AP exams discriminate against the stupid. poor people are much more likely to be stupid, and more likely to pass their stupidness genes to their children. while there are advantages to being born into a well-to-do family it is still better to be born smart and poor than rich and stupid.

 

[Tank]

We may not all agree how blacks became stupid, but at least we all agree that they are.

 

[IanC]

I sometimes think that blacks consider diplomas as magic pieces of paper rather than proof of competence and a base of learned knowledge. putting in time is not enough, you actually have to learn things.

 

[maatsmom843]

I sometimes think that blacks consider diplomas as magic pieces of paper rather than proof of competence and a base of learned knowledge. putting in time is not enough, you actually have to learn things.

1. how can a diploma be earned in the first place if the proper criteria (ie the required subject matter) is not thoroughly learned and comprehended. certainly you're not suggesting that all black people with degrees acquired them through impure means.

2. the need for a degree to lend credibility to an individual's intelligence and competence is a largely western construct. while there are definitely some benefits to the postsecondary educational system in our country and a degree/diploma will afford one a certain level of confidence about their prospective employees, it is not valid as the pentultimate marker or determinant of one's intelligence

i mean, look at how i talk. . . .i'm only 22, yes a black woman, very articulate and no, i have never earned a degree from any institution of higher learning.

 

[IanC]

I sometimes think that blacks consider diplomas as magic pieces of paper rather than proof of competence and a base of learned knowledge. putting in time is not enough, you actually have to learn things.

1. how can a diploma be earned in the first place if the proper criteria (ie the required subject matter) is not thoroughly learned and comprehended. certainly you're not suggesting that all black people with degrees acquired them through impure means.

2. the need for a degree to lend credibility to an individual's intelligence and competence is a largely western construct. while there are definitely some benefits to the postsecondary educational system in our country and a degree/diploma will afford one a certain level of confidence about their prospective employees, it is not valid as the pentultimate marker or determinant of one's intelligence

i mean, look at how i talk. . . .i'm only 22, yes a black woman, very articulate and no, i have never earned a degree from any institution of higher learning.

I believe that a degree, at least in STEM, is an expensive promissary note guaranteeing at least triple digit IQ and the ability to learn. Many other degrees do no such thing. I believe the system is broken when an individual passes the requirements to get a degree in teaching and then is unable to pass a state qualification exam. Blacks as a group are not even likely to pass many states' exams. how can diploma'ed teachers not pass these fairly simple tests? how can they teach things if they don't know them? how many other areas are in just as bad of shape that we don't know about because there is no public access to competency evaluations?

 

[maatsmom843]

because this country places little to NO value on education. besides the fact that the educational system in our country is lopsided, biased, in the ways that we just enumerated.

it will require a major paradigm shift on the part of the PTB before any of these glaring issues can ever be rectified. but, of course we know that the conservatives who are trying to preserve only certain aspects of the American way of life (which need no detailing here) would prefer that the masses be left as ignorant as they possibly can and so they will continue to tailor the system in a manner such that only a select few, who were born into a life where they were afforded certain privileges to begin with will be able to move consistently upward in terms of education.

only those who will serve to further the ultimate agenda will stand a chance, and it will seem to the lay person that there must be a disparity or some inequality in intellect along race or class lines.

 

[IanC]

because this country places little to NO value on education. besides the fact that the educational system in our country is lopsided, biased, in the ways that we just enumerated.

it will require a major paradigm shift on the part of the PTB before any of these glaring issues can ever be rectified. but, of course we know that the conservatives who are trying to preserve only certain aspects of the American way of life (which need no detailing here) would prefer that the masses be left as ignorant as they possibly can and so they will continue to tailor the system in a manner such that only a select few, who were born into a life where they were afforded certain privileges to begin with will be able to move consistently upward in terms of education.

only those who will serve to further the ultimate agenda will stand a chance, and it will seem to the lay person that there must be a disparity or some inequality in intellect along race or class lines.

education depends on schools, parents and especially the students. Confucius had a quote about not teaching the disinterested because it is a waste of time. stupid and disinterested students of all races bring problems on themselves by not trying. many parents fail their children by not encouraging them to strive for achievement. and some teachers give up and become disillusioned after years of disappointing results. but most students learn, most parents encourage their children and most teachers succeed at imparting knowledge.

your paranoid view of overlords holding people down is BS. individuals succeed or fail mostly on their own efforts. quit looking for someone to blame and start demanding individuak responsibility.

 

[casper4020322]

I sometimes think that blacks consider diplomas as magic pieces of paper rather than proof of competence and a base of learned knowledge. putting in time is not enough, you actually have to learn things.

1. how can a diploma be earned in the first place if the proper criteria (ie the required subject matter) is not thoroughly learned and comprehended. certainly you're not suggesting that all black people with degrees acquired them through impure means.

2. the need for a degree to lend credibility to an individual's intelligence and competence is a largely western construct. while there are definitely some benefits to the postsecondary educational system in our country and a degree/diploma will afford one a certain level of confidence about their prospective employees, it is not valid as the pentultimate marker or determinant of one's intelligence

i mean, look at how i talk. . . .i'm only 22, yes a black woman, very articulate and no, i have never earned a degree from any institution of higher learning.

I believe that a degree, at least in STEM, is an expensive promissary note guaranteeing at least triple digit IQ and the ability to learn. Many other degrees do no such thing. I believe the system is broken when an individual passes the requirements to get a degree in teaching and then is unable to pass a state qualification exam. Blacks as a group are not even likely to pass many states' exams. how can diploma'ed teachers not pass these fairly simple tests? how can they teach things if they don't know them? how many other areas are in just as bad of shape that we don't know about because there is no public access to competency evaluations?

I dropped out of the 12th grade b/c the classes were so full I couldn't hear what the teachers were talking about. So, I went and got my GED in TWO WEEKS and I scored a 96%. The teacher told me that I was the first person to do that. I am an African American woman who also has White genes. My eyes are green, I am fair skinned and when i was younger I had long light brown hair with blonde streaks. In school I was called 'white girl". I hated it!! Back then I didn't realize the benefits of having the white gene in me. I have worked at the same company for 21 yrs. I guess it's because the white gene overrode the black gene and that's the reason I've stayed at the same company all these many years. Right? What do you think?




























! The teacher told me I was the first person who had ever done that. I am an African American woman

 

[maatsmom843]

because this country places little to NO value on education. besides the fact that the educational system in our country is lopsided, biased, in the ways that we just enumerated.

it will require a major paradigm shift on the part of the PTB before any of these glaring issues can ever be rectified. but, of course we know that the conservatives who are trying to preserve only certain aspects of the American way of life (which need no detailing here) would prefer that the masses be left as ignorant as they possibly can and so they will continue to tailor the system in a manner such that only a select few, who were born into a life where they were afforded certain privileges to begin with will be able to move consistently upward in terms of education.

only those who will serve to further the ultimate agenda will stand a chance, and it will seem to the lay person that there must be a disparity or some inequality in intellect along race or class lines.

education depends on schools, parents and especially the students. Confucius had a quote about not teaching the disinterested because it is a waste of time. stupid and disinterested students of all races bring problems on themselves by not trying. many parents fail their children by not encouraging them to strive for achievement. and some teachers give up and become disillusioned after years of disappointing results. but most students learn, most parents encourage their children and most teachers succeed at imparting knowledge.

your paranoid view of overlords holding people down is BS. individuals succeed or fail mostly on their own efforts. quit looking for someone to blame and start demanding individuak responsibility.

I can definitely agree that a large part of the responsibility lies with the individual. However, for you to dismiss the idea that there are those who are working to ensure that only certain people can sink their teeth into the coveted american pie as BS suggests that you are not objectively observing your surroundings.

from the tone of our debate, i get the impression that you are a white man, and if this is true, i can say with no small measure of confidence, that you will never understand the implications of what it means to be a person of color in the world, not to mention in the West.

from the time of conception, the odds are stacked against the black man/woman. not only in educational opportunities, but largely because of a mindset, which while no longer fashionable, still exists to a very large degree in our country.

add to this the generations of abuse and second class citizenship we have been subjected to, and the picture should start to become more clear as to why minority students are not as motivated as they could/should be in school.

my generation of black children will be the last of those which will be reared by parents who lived during the jim crow era, but you must understand, that while times change quickly, mentalities do not, and the messages and impressions that were drilled into blacks for centuries will not be shaken in a few decades.

furthermore, these messages and impressions have not been done away with. If you're unclear on what i mean, turn on your television and get a load of the black people/models you see on TV and note the african americans" that you see. an uninformed person would get the impression that all black people here are light-skinned, of the mulatto or bi-racial variety. long flowing hair, slim noses, thin lips, an impossible waist line and sundry other CAUCASIAN characteristics are touted as the standard of beauty across the board for americans.

while there are many of us who intellectually know that all colors are beautiful, subconsciously the message that is imparted is that the more African you look, the less you belong and it results in a large group of people being ashamed of who they are, and attempting to identify with a standard which can only serve to the detriment of their self-image and esteem.

your confucian quip resonates with the Hermetic axiom "the lips of wisdom are closed, except to the ears of understanding." i couldn't agree with that more, but that idea only works when there is a level playingfield (please forgive the cliche) to begin with. when you are made to feel that certain things are expected from you (being black automatically gives you a connotation of illicitness, rebelliousness, coolness, etc) and other positive and beneficial things have been kept out of your reach for so long, human frailty will most often drive one to do what is easiest, and to stop striving for excellence

this is not to excuse those who do not take the initiative to better themselves, but they are factors that must be considered.

 

[Colin]

Ya, thats it, blacks used to be smart

HOW could you possibly consider this a valid response to my post??

He's a knuckle dragging moron. What else would you expect!

 

[Colin]

So it's whiteys fault that blacks are stupid?

Who do you blame for your stupidity?