Military photos of soldiers with dead

[Sky Dancer]

Reagan called them his freedom fighters. Bin Laden and the Taliban in Afghanistan that protects him are products of the 10-year-long, U.S.-backed war against the ex-USSR occupation of Afghanistan. After Russian troops invaded Afghanistan in 1979, the U.S. trained bin Laden and thousands of other Arab men.

 

[The Gadfly]

They fight for us and to defend us, but they don't have to enjoy doing it... IMHO.

They do if you want them to be good at it.

Enjoy it, Mani? I don't think so; soldiers do not have to be psychopaths, and most, thank God, are not. What soldiers feel as a result of the killing they have to do varies widely; some deeply regret it, sometimes even to the point of carrying terrible guilt for it the rest of their lives; some take a certain grim satisfaction in killing the enemy while playing by the rules, and a tiny handful actually seem to like it, but most men fall somewhere in the first two categories.

Bones, you asked "who drew the line?". It really doesn't matter; the line HAS to be drawn. It is true, that an infantryman has to balance overcoming his inhibitions against killing (which most Americans have), against having the discipline and restraint to NOT kill indiscriminately. Yes, sometimes, that is asking a lot, because it IS hard to have empathy and respect for a foreign people, when a soldier can't readily distinguish the enemy from the noncombatant civilians he hides and fights among. We learned that the hard way in Vietnam. Nonetheless, that line is clearly drawn by regulations, the UCMJ, and rules of engagement, and every soldier knows where it is. There is no excuse for those who choose to cross that line, and I refuse to in any way excuse or defend such misconduct. It might surprise some people to know that even in Vietnam, where training had not yet completely caught up to the realities of a war where the distinction between combatant and non-combatant was blurred, there were comparatively few incidents of deliberate, willful murder of civilian non-combatants, although the incidents that did occur got a lot more publicity than the far more numerous acts of kindness and compassion by American soldiers toward Vietnamese civilians.

In talking to veterans of more recent conflicts, it's clear that as a result of lessons learned in Vietnam, our military has placed more emphasis on discipline, restraint, and following the laws of war and rules of engagement. This is a good thing; atrocities only help the enemy, endanger one's fellow soldiers, and in addition, are completely unnecessary, and a disgrace to the individual, his unit, and his uniform.

Contrary to myth in some circles, the U.S. military has as good a record of honorable behavior as any on this planet, and a lot better than most. Even those killings of civilians which are truly accidents, and have no disciplinary consequences, are deeply regretted by our troops; no reasonable man wants something like that on his conscience, however inadvertent it may have been.

The vast majority of us, then and now, were not and are not cold-blooded murderers, torturers, or "baby-killers". That is NOT what we were trained to do. The actions of an undisciplined, murderous few notwithstanding, the vast majority of our troops behave honorably and professionally, and have no sympathy for the "filthy few" failures who do otherwise.

 

[The Gadfly]

killing machines etc etc..can we get a grip here?

For those that don't read, did no one here for instance watch The Pacific? Or some such film on war, taken from detailed and authentic war diary(s)?

These kids today are relatively tame. I would go even further to say that over the last 15 years or so our armed forces have been better behaved than they ever have, all the way back to the first one to grab a musket in the 1700's... period.

I couldn't agree more. Much of the improvement is due to better training; these soldiers are given a much better understanding of what their professional responsibilities are. In addition, they are not hurriedly-trained conscripts (as was often the case in the past). This is a highly-trained, motivated, well-disciplined force, in spite of a few rotten apples.

 

[Kalam]

It's hard to be sympathetic to people that are trying to kill you, let alone see them as people.

Now imagine that they've invaded your country, killed your family, and attempted to impose an alien political system on you.

If you believe Freedom/Democracy is an "Alien Political System" you really don't believe the basic tenants and foundations that this country was founded.

That's correct.

 

[AllieBaba]

Now imagine that they've invaded your country, killed your family, and attempted to impose an alien political system on you.

If you believe Freedom/Democracy is an "Alien Political System" you really don't believe the basic tenants and foundations that this country was founded.

That's correct.

You're agreeing that you don't believe in freedom and democracy.

I don't know why a person would ever admit to that, and yet I know they do believe it. It's depraved.

 

[Kalam]

If you believe Freedom/Democracy is an "Alien Political System" you really don't believe the basic tenants and foundations that this country was founded.

That's correct.

You're agreeing that you don't believe in freedom and democracy.

I don't know why a person would ever admit to that, and yet I know they do believe it. It's depraved.

I don't believe in democracy, no. 'Freedom' is vague and its definition changes depending on who you talk to.

 

[AllieBaba]

There's only one definition for freedom. The right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

"
Definition of FREEDOM

1
: the quality or state of being free: as a : the absence of necessity, coercion, or constraint in choice or action b : liberation from slavery or restraint or from the power of another : independence c : the quality or state of being exempt or released usually from something onerous <freedom from care> d : ease, facility <spoke the language with freedom> e : the quality of being frank, open, or outspoken <answered with freedom> f : improper familiarity g : boldness of conception or execution h : unrestricted use <gave him the freedom of their home> "

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/freedom

 

[AllieBaba]

Reagan called them his freedom fighters. Bin Laden and the Taliban in Afghanistan that protects him are products of the 10-year-long, U.S.-backed war against the ex-USSR occupation of Afghanistan. After Russian troops invaded Afghanistan in 1979, the U.S. trained bin Laden and thousands of other Arab men.

This in no way supports your ignorant comment. It's just garbage you're regurgitating.

Provide me with specifics about how we trained him to attack Americans. Please.

 

[Dr Grump]

o cry me a fucking river...civilians....o my .....that doesnt seem to bother anyhone when american civilians are killed....

January 7, 2009 - An American social scientist/anthropologist died at Brooke Army Medical Center in San Antonio, Texas of wounds received on November 4, 2008, when she was doused with fuel and set afire by a Taliban member posing as an Afghan civilian

List of private contractor deaths in Afghanistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


yea i read my own link grump....i realize these men are over the line...but who drew that fucking line?

Not the people they fucking murdered. And who doesn't care about American civilians being killed? Afghanis? As for your example, cool. Using your totally warped logic, if some Hispanic gang banger shoots my wife dead that gives me the right to go find some innocent Hispanic and blow her head off. Great logic...

Grow the fuck up Bones. You're sounding like Pubes or one of those other neocon whackjobs,,,

 

[AllieBaba]

That's right. Act more like Grump. We all know how civilized and reasonable HE is.

 

[L.K.Eder]

Twinkies.......dingdongs ...does it matter?

I am not and have not referred to what they are accused of, wherever did you get that idea?

i mean, there are millions of them.

you really have to keep it all in perspective.

and some of the pics were probably beautifully choreographed.

yeah, where did i get that eyedear, eyerolling teenager.

maybe because you post idiocy about muskets in 1700 et al in this thread?

nice hack job formatting that post, btw. matches your other input in this thread.

bon appetit.

 

[MikeK]

Their job is to defend us.

Their stipulated purpose is to defend us but they are routinely misused by incompetent or malfeasant governments.

Whether the wars/conflicts you mention were in our defense or not is in my opinion, immaterial.

Immaterial? I frankly can't think of anything more material than the unnecessary military adventures our government habitually engages in at enormously wasteful cost in blood, suffering and treasure.

They do our fighting for us.

I don't know about you but the only fighting the U.S. military ever did for me took place between 1941 and 1945. And for that I am eternally grateful and proud.

They go where we send them, when we send them.

I haven't sent them anywhere -- nor would I have.

I respect them for that.

They have my sympathy.

I would prefer they do so and give the impression that they are doing so, with a measure of respect for the lives of people.

I would prefer that our military not be used for any purpose other than the actual defense against armed aggression.

 

[Dr Grump]

That's right. Act more like Grump. We all know how civilized and reasonable HE is.

You would be one of the most freedom-hating people I know...unless I am anti-abortion, Christian, immigrant hating, gay bashing right-wing loon, I will never fit your description of freedom. As Kalam said, freedom means different things to different people. Your idea of freedom (not the definition you posted, because I can tear you a new one where YOU don't met that definition on serveral fronts) is certainly not mine. And that makes me thankful....You'd be more at home in one of those Tinpot Banana republics in the South/Central America crica 1960s/1970s/1980s

 

[JBeukema]

We do not live in a black and white world.

So it's both? These guys are responsible for their actions despite what you said earlier and we should treat all our vets like serial killers on parole who could kill anyone at any time?

We dont live in a black and white world, you send somebody off to kill for long periods of time you can not be surprised when they kill, and you must bear some of the responsibility as you are the one who asked them to kill and put them in the position to continuously do such.

We're not upset they killed

We're upset they murdered civilians

I guess it just wasn't as much fun when the victims weren't unarmed and helpless

 

[JBeukema]

Graphic photos showing U.S. troops posing with dead Afghans were published by a German news organization Monday, with one showing a soldier smiling as he held a bloodied and partially clothed corpse.

The photos published by Der Spiegel were among several seized by Army investigators looking into the deaths of three unarmed Afghans last year. Five soldiers based at Joint Base Lewis-McChord, south of Seattle, have been charged with murder and conspiracy in the case.

Der Spiegel did not respond to requests for comment on Monday. It wasn't known how the organization obtained copies of the photos.

Photos show GIs posing with dead Afghans - World news - South and Central Asia - Afghanistan - msnbc.com


we train them to kill...then get all pissy when they are proud of their work....

anyone on a military base for any period of time has seen these slogans:

mess with the best...die with the rest


we kill them all and let god sort them

marines dont judge terrorist, god does, marines just arrange the meeting...

for every damned fucking photo of the us soldier with a dead afghanistan....i want to see fucking photos of beheaded soldiers etc.

It's moment like this when I wish I could post pictures.

I have stacks upon stacks of pic showing soldiers and marines playing with Afgan kids and the Vets and the kids are loving it.

Every special, or news story where they show Americans walking through a village there are ALWAYS people coming up to shake hands.

but the gruesome is what makes the news.

It's hard to be sympathetic to people that are trying to kill you, let alone see them as people.

A few bad apples can make the whole military look bad.

A good friend of mine is a marine and is currently in Afghanistan. I've seen pictures of him hanging out with kids, posing in goofy pictures with them (giving thumbs up for example), hanging out, and a little girl handing him a handful of flowers.

I do also wish more Americans would be able to see pictures similar to this.

Americans' opinions aren't what matter. It's the view of us help by by loclas we need to be concerned with. People like your friend are key to gaining the trust and support of the population.

Assholes like the article talks about provide more AgitProp for those who'd rally the locals against your brother

 

[JBeukema]

The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are wars of aggression. We weren't attacked by Iraq or Afghanistan.

Right, we were only attacked by people they trained.

'They' being the CIA?

 

[JBeukema]

There's only one definition for freedom. The right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Which appears nowhere in the dictionary you quote...

 

[The Gadfly]

We supply most of the world's weapons.

Really, Sky? Then why is it that there seem to be so many more AK--47's, RPG-7s, , and other assorted Russian and Chinese manufactured weapons than their American counterparts, (M-16s, LAWs, etc.) in all the footage one sees from all the trouble spots around the globe? I mean, the Kalashnikov is only the most-produced military rifle of all time, by such a huge margin; but I'm sure they're all sitting at home in Mother Russia and China, right? I'm sure the Russians and Chinese aren't the arms-dealing "merchants of death" you so casually accuse your own country of being; why, those noble communists trying to be capitalists would NEVER do anything like THAT!

Now run along, dear, and find something else to "blame America first" for, because this one won't wash!

 

[Toome]

The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are wars of aggression. We weren't attacked by Iraq or Afghanistan.

Right, we were only attacked by people they trained.

We trained bin laden when it was convenient for us while opposing USSR. We supported Saddam when it was convenient for us to have him as an ally against Iran.

We supply most of the world's weapons.

The US never trained bin Ladin. He would not have anything to do with the US. It is why he established al Qai'da: to get rid of American influence in the region.

Facts tend to be bothersome little things.

 

[Toome]

If the allegations prove true, then these soldiers should be executed for their crimes. It is why we have rules of engagement and the law of land warfare. It is why the military is steeped in custom, tradition and discipline.

But I'll reserve judgment until the courts sort out the facts. Der Spiegel and The Guardian aren't exactly unbiased, especially when it comes to the US military and US foreign policy. Only Al Jazeera is more outrageous.

That being said, there needs to be a clear understanding that there is nothing civilized about warfare. It is man's brutality in its ugliest form. It is a necessary evil that good men have to carry out and somehow return home to live a normal life. While these soldiers might be guilty of committing horrific crimes, I'm old school and tend to look at how they became that way.

And that is an old-fashioned leadership issue. Let the chips fall where they may, and let those who knew about this pay the consequences. NOTHING in the Army is that much of a well-kept secret. IF this was truly going on, then there was talk about it, and leaders at all levels had indicators.

I guess we'll have to wait and see how this pans out.