Michael Moore and His Take On America and Israel

[ajwps]

What happens to solving any problems peacefully? israel and palestians were fighting for more than 50 years with most of arabs supporting palestians and every time arabs got thier behind kicked. perhapse it is time talk, no?
Anyway, would not you be the first who will talk about tax money going to other countries? or is it ok to spend the money if they are going toward killing some jews? just curious.

Drac you are quite correct. The Arabs living in Israel and the surrounding Arab countries can't lick little Israel by frontal attacks. So now they want to take Israel by the deception of immigration of all 300,000,000 Arabs living in their own countries.

In the world of a fatalist, the ultimate end of things is already decided but the route to that end is man's freewill choices or paths that always leads to the same conclusion. From my point of view, there will NEVER be an Islamic palestine in Israel no matter which tactic or ploy is used to this goal.

The corruption and internal strife between the various Islamic terrorist groups bring incresing misery to the Arabs who are only now beginning to realize what has been done to them by their own leaders.

I also feel that Israel's PM Sharon STATED goal of giving the Gaza Strip and West Bank to the tender mercy of the Arabs is not realistic nor attainable.

All is not as it appears....

 

[dilloduck]

Drac you are quite correct. The Arabs living in Israel and the surrounding Arab countries can't lick little Israel by frontal attacks. So now they want to take Israel by the deception of immigration of all 300,000,000 Arabs living in their own countries.

In the world of a fatalist, the ultimate end of things is already decided but the route to that end is man's freewill choices or paths that always leads to the same conclusion. From my point of view, there will NEVER be an Islamic palestine in Israel no matter which tactic or ploy is used to this goal.

The corruption and internal strife between the various Islamic terrorist groups bring incresing misery to the Arabs who are only now beginning to realize what has been done to them by their own leaders.

I also feel that Israel's PM Sharon STATED goal of giving the Gaza Strip and West Bank to the tender mercy of the Arabs is not realistic nor attainable.

All is not as it appears....

the lies Israel tells to confuse it's enemies are used by the rest of the world to condem it

 

[ajwps]

the lies Israel tells to confuse it's enemies are used by the rest of the world to condem it

Do you think that the lies and deceptions used by the Allies in WW2 on the Normandy invasion were also used to confuse the Axis? Do you think that the rest of the world condemned the Allies for the same deceptions Israel takes for the the very same act of self preservation?

There is more truth in honest lies,
Believe me, than in half the truths.

ATTRIBUTION: Samuel Butler (1835–1902)

 

[DKSuddeth]

Who said my sarcasm wasn't based on truth and yours on the waste product of the bull?

aj, my disdain for the 'republican jewish coalition' is a direct result of their slander of an american citizen that was murdered by the israeli defense force with a bulldozer. The bullshit spin about her trying to protect terrorist tunnels is pure unadulterated spin (read that as bullshit lies) to justify their indifference to life.

As for the rest of whatever the hell it was you were intimating with the anti-semitism and nazi shit.......... :nine:

 

[dilloduck]

Do you think that the lies and deceptions used by the Allies in WW2 on the Normandy invasion were also used to confuse the Axis? Do you think that the rest of the world condemned the Allies for the same deceptions Israel takes for the the very same act of self preservation?

The tactics used in WWII to confuse the German defense of the Atlantic wall.
We certainly weren't trying to convince anyone whose side we were on.

 

[ajwps]

The tactics used in WWII to confuse the German defense of the Atlantic wall.
We certainly weren't trying to convince anyone whose side we were on.

REALLY? (YOU?) The Allies were trying to convince the Nazis whose side of the beach they were not coming on. You split hairs about who is fooled about allies in today's world and I try also to split the same hair about who was fooled about the allies working in a similar covert action.

I guess were just two hair splitters about who is fooling who.

 

[dilloduck]

REALLY? (YOU?) The Allies were trying to convince the Nazis whose side of the beach they were not coming on. You split hairs about who is fooled about allies in today's world and I try also to split the same hair about who was fooled about the allies in WW2.

I guess were just two hair splitters about who is fooling who.

Apples and Oranges, AJ. There was no attempt by the US to pretend we were not completely on the side of all of the Allied Coailtion.

Why do Isreal and the US continue this silly charade? Is the US trying to appease those in the US who oppose our support for military assistance to Israel?

 

[ajwps]

aj, my disdain for the 'republican jewish coalition' is a direct result of their slander of an american citizen that was murdered by the israeli defense force with a bulldozer. The bullshit spin about her trying to protect terrorist tunnels is pure unadulterated spin (read that as bullshit lies) to justify their indifference to life.

As for the rest of whatever the hell it was you were intimating with the anti-semitism and nazi shit.......... :nine:

DK you have disdain for a Republican Jewish Coalition because of an American (peace worker?) who came to assist the terrorists in Israel.

Do you have one iota of evidence or proof that this American (woman) citizen was not killed by accident when she jumped in front of a large bulldozer where the driver could not see anyone in front of his plow?

Is this free thinking American terrorist citizen killed by a bulldozer in Israel anything like the American citizen John Walker Lynn fighting as a Taliban shooting at Americans in Afganastan?

BOTH OF THEM WERE WORKING FOR PEACE. THERE OWN CONCEPT OF PEACE.

 

[DKSuddeth]

DK you have disdain for a Republican Jewish Coalition because of an American who came to assist the terrorists in Israel.

Do you have one iota of evidence or proof that this American (woman) citizen was not killed by accident when she jumped in front of a large bulldozer where the driver could not see anyone in front of his plow?

Is this free thinking American terrorist citizen killed by a bulldozer in Israel anything like the American citizen John Walker Lynn fighting as a Taliban shooting at Americans in Afganastan?

I have disdain for anyone that would take the death of a human being(be it accidental or purposeful) that is trying to protect innocent villagers homes from an abusive military force and turn the story into one of that human being is actually a terrorist supporter/sympathizer who rightfully deserved to die(be it accidental or purposeful). You've now placed yourself in the same category of those I have disdain for.

There is absolutely zero comparison between rachel corrie and john lindh, an umarmed woman and a man with a automatic weapon. To try to relate a comparison shows just how weak and pathetic your argument is.

go pedal your hateful ways elsewhere. You're being part of the problem, not part of the solution.

 

[ajwps]

Apples and Oranges, AJ. There was no attempt by the US to pretend we were not completely on the side of all of the Allied Coailtion.

Why do Isreal and the US continue this silly charade? Is the US trying to appease those in the US who oppose our support for military assistance to Israel?

Apples and oranges? The US has been in a war with Islamic terrorism since before the Clinton years. In any war, confusing the enemy by pretense in ANY FORM is neither silly, a charade nor is it trying to appease those on the homefront who are apposed to fighting back in a war.

Military assistance to Israel from the United States or conversly military assitance from Israel to the United States may not have positive effects in that war if it were openly admitted by either ally.

You say no one is fooled. You may be right but that is the current strategy. And for whatever reason that game plan is not a charade to console those who do not wish for America to have a close ally on which to rely.

GET IT NOW....

 

[dilloduck]

Apples and oranges? The US has been in a war with Islamic terrorism since before the Clinton years. In any war, confusing the enemy by pretense in ANY FORM is neither silly, a charade nor is it trying to appease those on the homefront who are apposed to fighting back in a war.

Military assistance to Israel from the United States or conversly military assitance from Israel to the United States may not have positive effects in that war if it were openly admitted by either ally.

You say no one is fooled. You may be right but that is the current strategy. And for whatever reason that game plan is not a charade to console those who do not wish for America to have a close ally on which to rely.

GET IT NOW....

You were trying to compare secret invasion plans to "covert" American/Israeli
cooperation. The attack on Normandy succeeded in surprising the Geman defense enough to succeed. The American/Israeli alliance is no secret to anyone who can read. Why do you assume that full acknowlegement of this alliance would create a problem? I think the question Americans need to ask themselves is if this relationship with Israel is important enough to warrant the sacrifices that Americans make to maintain it.

 

[ajwps]

I have disdain for anyone that would take the death of a human being(be it accidental or purposeful) that is trying to protect innocent villagers homes from an abusive military force and turn the story into one of that human being is actually a terrorist supporter/sympathizer who rightfully deserved to die(be it accidental or purposeful). You've now placed yourself in the same category of those I have disdain for.

There is absolutely zero comparison between rachel corrie and john lindh, an umarmed woman and a man with a automatic weapon. To try to relate a comparison shows just how weak and pathetic your argument is.

go pedal your hateful ways elsewhere. You're being part of the problem, not part of the solution.

Let me attempt to get your incoherent thought processes into some kind of order.

1) You say that the the loss of (a peace terrorist activist) life by accident or by evil Israeli intent holds disdain for you.

Your seeming lack of logic proves your argument is totally without merit. For Israeli policy and action always go out of their way to keep from killing non-combatants and that is verified.

2) Then you have some sort of proof that says that Rachel Corrie was protecting innocent villagers from having their homes demolished.

Those innocent villagers domiciles housed suicide bombers family members who should be rewarded so that other suicide bomber children will know with certainty that their family abodes will also be honored. Perhaps you would also find disdain if Israel chose to have each suicide bombers family in the house thus flattened? Great logic!

3) Then you say that somehow that the Republican Jewish Coalition said or was responsible for Rachel Corrie death and thought she deserved to die.

I suppose you have some proof that the US Republican Jewish Coalition was responsible in any way for Rachel Corrie's death?

4) Then finally you say that carrying an automatic weapon is not the equivalent of putting yourself in front of bulldozer protecting and rewarding suicide bombers family homes is somehow very different?

When one put themselves in front of a moving bulldozer (you have submitted no proof to the contrary) where the driver runs over a Ms. Corrie by accident or if a person jumps into a fire and not expect to get burned is somehow the fault of the Republican Jewish Coalition.

It also is obvious that Rachel Corrie was the one who put herself into peril's way by supporting terror, hate and ignorance with her body.

You say that I am a part of the problem and not the solution with my hate? Well from the perspective of reality, it seems that you are the one displaying vile contempt for the truth. Your hate and ability to judge the guilt of the Republican Jewish Coaltion seems to say a great deal about your own ability to believe anything except your own ideations. You seem to see the victims as the victimizer by a terrorist backer who accidentally forefeits her life by her a lack of reality. Its amazing that America continues to be a land of justice and mercy with folks who think like you.

 

[DKSuddeth]

Let me attempt to get your incoherent thought processes into some kind of order.

1) You say that the the loss of (a peace terrorist activist) life by accident or by evil Israeli intent holds disdain for you.

where is your proof that rachel corrie was a terrorist supporter? or in your hatred of palestine do you automatically assume that anyone who supports palestinian citizens is automatically a terrorist supporter? That would put you smack dab in the same category as william joyce.

Your seeming lack of logic proves your argument is totally without merit. For Israeli policy and action always go out of their way to keep from killing non-combatants and that is verified.

that would be why every single one of the palestinian children that were killed weren't wearing an explosive vest or carrying an automatic weapon. I've heard of all these investigations by IDF yet have NEVER seen a finished report that did anything but exonerate them.

2) Then you have some sort of proof that says that Rachel Corrie was protecting innocent villagers from having their homes demolished.

Those innocent villagers domiciles housed suicide bombers family members who should be rewarded so that other suicide bomber children will know with certainty that their family abodes will also be honored. Perhaps you would also find disdain if Israel chose to have each suicide bombers family in the house thus flattened? Great logic!

again, your hatred of palestine shines brightly

3) Then you say that somehow that the Republican Jewish Coalition said or was responsible for Rachel Corrie death and thought she deserved to die.

I suppose you have some proof that the US Republican Jewish Coalition was responsible in any way for Rachel Corrie's death?

and you have proof that she was supporting terrorists? other than your hatred that describes every palestinian a terrorist?

4) Then finally you say that carrying an automatic weapon is not the equivalent of putting yourself in front of bulldozer protecting and rewarding suicide bombers family homes is somehow very different?

if you were faced with two people, one with an automatic weapon and one with no weapon, who would you consider the threat?

When one put themselves in front of a moving bulldozer (you have submitted no proof to the contrary) where the driver runs over a Ms. Corrie by accident or if a person jumps into a fire and not expect to get burned is somehow the fault of the Republican Jewish Coalition.

you erroneously say I'm blaming the coalition for corries death, thats wrong and you know it. It is your attempt at evading the point that the rep-jew coalition used a false tag of corrie as a terrorist supporter when, even they, have no proof to support or refute said claim. Thats why I called it a bullshit lie.

It also is obvious that Rachel Corrie was the one who put herself into peril's way by supporting terror, hate and ignorance with her body.

prove she was a terrorist supporter and use something other than your hatred of palestinians. I'm betting that you can't.

You say that I am a part of the problem and not the solution with my hate?
pretty much, yes.

Well from the perspective of reality, it seems that you are the one displaying vile contempt for the truth.
where you see truth, I see lies. I have vile contempt for lies. thats reality.


Your hate and ability to judge the guilt of the Republican Jewish Coaltion seems to say a great deal about your own ability to believe anything except your own ideations.
never did I say I hate the republican jewish coalition. I said I hate their bullshit lies and slander. get it right.

You seem to see the victims as the victimizer by a terrorist backer who accidentally forefeits her life by her a lack of reality. Its amazing that America continues to be a land of justice and mercy with folks who think like you.

rachel corrie was crushed by a bulldozer while she was unarmed and you want to call the driver the victim? thats so ass backwards. Whats amazing is that people actually follow the bullshit drivel you spew, but thats ok though, because this is the land of the free even with people who think like you.

Now, since according to the rules I'm not to flame you and you're not to flame me (but we've sort of disregarded that to get our points and issues out in the open) my recommendation would be for us both to acknowledge that each others views are just dead wrong and leave it at that.

 

[drac]

the lies Israel tells to confuse it's enemies are used by the rest of the world to condem it

confused here, what lies did aj was talking about?

 

[drac]

I also feel that Israel's PM Sharon STATED goal of giving the Gaza Strip and West Bank to the tender mercy of the Arabs is not realistic nor attainable.
All is not as it appears....

Agree, no one sided action will solve the problem. both sides need to work together

 

[ajwps]

rachel corrie was crushed by a bulldozer while she was unarmed and you want to call the driver the victim? thats so ass backwards. Whats amazing is that people actually follow the bullshit drivel you spew, but thats ok though, because this is the land of the free even with people who think like you.

Okay you have now been asked the second time for evidence or unbiased independent proof that the driver saw a WHITE AMERICAN in front of his bulldozer and purposefully flattened her. You've stated your unsupported opinion. WHERE IS YOUR UNBIASED PROOF?

Now, since according to the rules I'm not to flame you and you're not to flame me (but we've sort of disregarded that to get our points and issues out in the open) my recommendation would be for us both to acknowledge that each others views are just dead wrong and leave it at that.

Fine. You have posited an apparent fabrication without evidence and you want to call it quits.

Before that end to this debate, submit your unbiased proof of Rachel Corrie being run over because she was seen as somekind of threat?

SHOW UNBIASED PROOF.........

 

[ajwps]

Agree, no one sided action will solve the problem. both sides need to work together

There has been 36 years of both sides working together with Oslo Agreements, Wye Agreements, weapons given to the PA to stop terrorists and American attempts at a Road Map to Peace. The Arabs have been offered a land of their own in Israel twice but immediately turned down by Arafat.

I think that it will soon become apparent even to the mind of the most pacifist Israeli, that one-sided action is all that is left. Not token raids or targeted killings of murderous leaders but a real concerted effort to transfer the Arab population out of Israel.

Until then there will only be more conflict and killing.

 

[ajwps]

1) You say that the the loss of (a peace terrorist activist) life by accident or by evil Israeli intent holds disdain for you.

where is your proof that rachel corrie was a terrorist supporter? or in your hatred of palestine do you automatically assume that anyone who supports palestinian citizens is automatically a terrorist supporter? That would put you smack dab in the same category as william joyce.

The proof was in her sole actions for the peace and homes for those who murder Jewish babies. Wiliam Joyce cannot support his hatred but I can support the truth by the actions of those who say they support peace only as long it is the peace of the killer.

Your seeming lack of logic proves your argument is totally without merit. For Israeli policy and action always go out of their way to keep from killing non-combatants and that is verified.

that would be why every single one of the palestinian children that were killed weren't wearing an explosive vest or carrying an automatic weapon. I've heard of all these investigations by IDF yet have NEVER seen a finished report that did anything but exonerate them.

Maybe you have difficulty reading the English language. I said Israel goes out of its way to keep from killing non-combatants. But just because terrorist use their children as shields, the responsibility lies with the cowards who use non-combatant human shields. IDF investigations are not as good as actual photos.

2) Then you have some sort of proof that says that Rachel Corrie was protecting innocent villagers from having their homes demolished.

Those innocent villagers domiciles housed suicide bombers family members who should be rewarded so that other suicide bomber children will know with certainty that their family abodes will also be honored. Perhaps you would also find disdain if Israel chose to have each suicide bombers family in the house thus flattened? Great logic!

again, your hatred of palestine shines brightly

There has to be some way to get a message to those who rejoice at the death of their children commiting suicide to kill innocents. Hate is something that seems to be in your perview.

3) Then you say that somehow that the Republican Jewish Coalition said or was responsible for Rachel Corrie death and thought she deserved to die.

I suppose you have some proof that the US Republican Jewish Coalition was responsible in any way for Rachel Corrie's death?

and you have proof that she was supporting terrorists? other than your hatred that describes every palestinian a terrorist?

Your proof that the US Republican Jewish Coalition was responsible for Rachel Corrie's death and I will give you all the proof and background necessary to prove that this peace activiist was a supporter of the Islamics who attacked on 09/11.

4) Then finally you say that carrying an automatic weapon is not the equivalent of putting yourself in front of bulldozer protecting and rewarding suicide bombers family homes is somehow very different?

if you were faced with two people, one with an automatic weapon and one with no weapon, who would you consider the threat?

The threat would be from the one people with their children blowing up killing babies while their parents sing, dance and pass out candy. They are the real danger to others.

When one put themselves in front of a moving bulldozer (you have submitted no proof to the contrary) where the driver runs over a Ms. Corrie by accident or if a person jumps into a fire and not expect to get burned is somehow the fault of the Republican Jewish Coalition.

you erroneously say I'm blaming the coalition for corries death, thats wrong and you know it. It is your attempt at evading the point that the rep-jew coalition used a false tag of corrie as a terrorist supporter when, even they, have no proof to support or refute said claim. Thats why I called it a bullshit lie.

Can you calm down and quit cursing! Let me give your actual quote about the Republican Jewish Coalition.

aj, my disdain for the 'republican jewish coalition' is a direct result of their slander of an american citizen that was murdered by the israeli defense force with a bulldozer. The bullshit spin about her trying to protect terrorist tunnels is pure unadulterated spin (read that as bullshit lies) to justify their indifference to life.

There you blame the Republican Jewish Coalition fo their slander of an innocent red-blooded American citizen that died as a result of her own stupidity and ignorance. Here is a picture of your innocent Rachel Corre fighting for the rights of the Philistinians.

It also is obvious that Rachel Corrie was the one who put herself into peril's way by supporting terror, hate and ignorance with her body.

prove she was a terrorist supporter and use something other than your hatred of palestinians. I'm betting that you can't.

See Rachel Corrie, her innocent husband's picture in background and her filistine baby.

You say that I am a part of the problem and not the solution with my hate?
pretty much, yes.

Well from the perspective of reality, it seems that you are the one displaying vile contempt for the truth.

where you see truth, I see lies. I have vile contempt for lies. thats reality.

White lies are at the other end of the spectrum of deception from lies in a serious crisis. They are the most common and the most trivial forms that duplicity can take. The fact that they are so common provides their protective coloring. And their very triviality, when compared to more threatening lies, makes it seem unnecessary or even absurd to condemn them. Some consider all well-intentioned lies, however momentous, to be white; I shall adhere to the narrower usage: a white lie, in this sense, is a falsehood not meant to injure anyone, and of little moral import.


Your hate and ability to judge the guilt of the Republican Jewish Coaltion seems to say a great deal about your own ability to believe anything except your own ideations.

never did I say I hate the republican jewish coalition. I said I hate their bullshit lies and slander. get it right.

aj, my disdain for the 'republican jewish coalition' is a direct result of their slander of an american citizen that was murdered by the israeli defense force with a bulldozer. The bullshit spin about her trying to protect terrorist tunnels is pure unadulterated spin (read that as bullshit lies) to justify their indifference to life.

 

[DKSuddeth]

aj, one last time. the republican jewish coalition calls rachel corrie a terrorist supporter protecting terrorist tunnels without any proof of that. Now, if you, in your hatred of all palestinians, simply refuse to see them in any other light than terrorists then all I can tell you is you are as bad as william joyce, atlanta walter, and big D.

Don't ask me for proof if you don't have proof for your side other than hate propaganda about palestinians. All the pictures, statements, and articles mean jack shit when those of us with some sort of sanity know that there are some palestinians who do want peace away from terrorism.

Now, keep up the bullshit with me and find yourself gone. you made your statements and I called you on them. I made mine and you called me on them. This ends it. there will be no more warnings.

 

[drac]

There has been 36 years of both sides working together with Oslo Agreements, Wye Agreements, weapons given to the PA to stop terrorists and American attempts at a Road Map to Peace. The Arabs have been offered a land of their own in Israel twice but immediately turned down by Arafat.

I think that it will soon become apparent even to the mind of the most pacifist Israeli, that one-sided action is all that is left. Not token raids or targeted killings of murderous leaders but a real concerted effort to transfer the Arab population out of Israel.

Until then there will only be more conflict and killing.

Hm.. Olso was signed in 91 if i am not mistaken, so not sure about number 36. One sided action will not work. Look at the lebanon. israel withdrew from it without any agreement to the borders defined by un and monitored by un. the result - hezbollah got a significat political boost, the notion of israel being defeated and the way to defeat it (current situation follows the similar pattern), shelling of the border towns, kidnapping. Why would it be different if israel withdraw unilaterally from gaza without some sort of political understanding from plo?

Israel can not and should not forcefully transfer arabs. 2 states solution is the only option.