Methodist Divisions Over Gays Intensify

[Hobbit]

Well, I missed a large portion of the stuff that I could have joined in, but I'll take a swing.

The outrage is from the members of the Methodist Church. What some of you don't understand is that the Methodist Church is a singular organization, not a random label applied to hundreds of unrelated churches. These churches are all run by a central office that handles much of the macro-resource management and personell. This organization also sets doctrine and universal church regulations.

Now, that having been said, a Methodist church ordaining a gay minister would be like a chapter of the NAACP hiring a KKK member as one of their chapter presidents. Yeah, people could just stop attending that chapter, but it would outrage all members of the NAACP that somebody who directly opposes one of their core values is in charge of one of their chapters. In the case of the Methodist Church, an individual church would have to cut itself off and declare itself non-denominational to avoid an outcry. But they're crusaders intent on forcing their enlightenment on the rest of us, so they're trying to get the national council to accept it, instead.

As far as calling chruch a "feel-good' get together where people dress up and eat food is like calling a football game a chance to get together and yell a lot while wearing the same color clothes. You missed the point entirely.

 

[Hagbard Celine]

Well, I missed a large portion of the stuff that I could have joined in, but I'll take a swing.

Wow, welcome.

Now, that having been said, a Methodist church ordaining a gay minister would be like a chapter of the NAACP hiring a KKK member as one of their chapter presidents. Yeah, people could just stop attending that chapter, but it would outrage all members of the NAACP that somebody who directly opposes one of their core values is in charge of one of their chapters.

Haha, I'm sorry, but comparing a gay person to a KKKlansman is completely ridiculous. I get your point though. Methodists reserve the right to be intolerant just like everybody else I guess. Although I don't know if that's very Christian of them.

In the case of the Methodist Church, an individual church would have to cut itself off and declare itself non-denominational to avoid an outcry. But they're crusaders intent on forcing their enlightenment on the rest of us, so they're trying to get the national council to accept it, instead.

I don't think "crusading" is the proper word. It may seem that way to you as you are completely terrified at the prospect of the existence of a gay preacher, but I think in reality all they are trying to do is see if the church will accept them before they commit the drastic act of cutting themselves off from the main church.

As far as calling chruch a "feel-good' get together where people dress up and eat food is like calling a football game a chance to get together and yell a lot while wearing the same color clothes. You missed the point entirely.

No, if it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck, it's a duck. A football game is all about dressing in the same colors, getting drunk and yelling. And it's a ton of fun. What are they about to you? Do you reach a higher plane of enlightenment at football games? Because if you do, I need to know how you do it. What happens when you go to church? You get dressed up and go sing and pray and get forgiven and you leave feeling good. And sometimes you're lucky enough to have attended on a night when people brought food. It's kinda fun too if you can get through falling asleep during the sermon, there's usually some theatrics involving "tongues" or watching people getting filled with the "holy spirit." And the food's great! It's a blast, but it's still a duck because it quacks like one.

 

[Mr. P]

....
As far as calling chruch a "feel-good' get together where people dress up and eat food is like calling a football game a chance to get together and yell a lot while wearing the same color clothes.

That is the way many see it, ya know? Myself included.

 

[Hobbit]

No, if it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck, it's a duck. A football game is all about dressing in the same colors, getting drunk and yelling. And it's a ton of fun. What are they about to you? Do you reach a higher plane of enlightenment at football games? Because if you do, I need to know how you do it. What happens when you go to church? You get dressed up and go sing and pray and get forgiven and you leave feeling good. And sometimes you're lucky enough to have attended on a night when people brought food. It's kinda fun too if you can get through falling asleep during the sermon, there's usually some theatrics involving "tongues" or watching people getting filled with the "holy spirit." And the food's great! It's a blast, but it's still a duck because it quacks like one.

See, this is my point. A football game is about, uh, I dunno, the fact that A BUNCH OF GUYS ARE PLAYING FOOTBALL!! Maybe? I mean, that's what I've been paying my $20 a game ($1/game for home games as I'm a student) for, not an excuse to get drunk and yell a lot. Church isn't about dressing up and "feeling good." It's about, um, I dunno, WORSHIPPING GOD, MAYBE? Is there anything you actually do where you get the point of it. Are meals just for sitting around a table to talk, or do they have to purpose of consuming nourishment? Is sleep an excuse to use a bed, or is it for rest? Church is a place for the worship of God, and if all you're going for is a feeling, then you're going for all the wrong reasons. There's times when going to church will make you feel like crap, but I've never regretted it because it helps me get in touch with God, the guy who knows it all.

The bolded portion is offensive. You might as well go up to black people and say the NAACP made up slavery to gain political power, or tell a holocaust survivor that the holocaust was just a farce made up by the Jewish establishment to garner sympathy.

Lastly, you seem to think there's a gray area involving gays in the church. There isn't. The Bible specifically lists homosexuality as a sin, period. End of stoy. Now, you call it intolerant becuase we don't want people who completely discount a very specific sin to preach. Well, how does this not make sense? If you want tolerant, though, you should find it interesting that I'm all for letting gays in the church, just not in leadership until they recognize that it is clearly stated, in the Bible, that HOMOSEXUALITY IS...A...SIN!!!

Now, I've made this all as clear as possible. If you continue on your way, I will assume that your sole purpose is to irritate me, as nobody can possibly be stupid enough to misunderstand that as much as you claim to. Consider this the last response until you can actually reply to what I'm saying rather than what you want me to say to prove to yourself that I'm the hateful bigot you've painted me into because you believe the church is evil.

 

[Avatar4321]

It's all much ado about nothing. It clearly shows what happens when one attempts to decipher the intentions of and unknowable, eternal, omnipresent entity. In such a case one can make up anything one desires and claim that it is the will of one's favorite deity. But that's what makes religion what it is.

Why do you assume God is unknowable? Simply because you don't know Him doesn't mean others don't.

 

[Avatar4321]

Wrong. It's because priests are not allowed to have sex with anybody, not even women. When you go that long without getting any gratification, it's got to be hard to control yourself. That policy just is not N*SYNC with human nature.

Actually quite the opposite. the longer you go without it the more power you have over your urges.

It's when you give in to it that you start having a trouble controling yourself.

Tell me when you started engaging in sexual conduct, did you want it more or less than you did before? My guess is you wanted more because that is the nature of sexuality. Its supposed to attract the man and woman more and more. If you don't give in the first place, you wont have as much desire to give it later.

 

[Hobbit]

Actually quite the opposite. the longer you go without it the more power you have over your urges.

It's when you give in to it that you start having a trouble controling yourself.

Tell me when you started engaging in sexual conduct, did you want it more or less than you did before? My guess is you wanted more because that is the nature of sexuality. Its supposed to attract the man and woman more and more. If you don't give in the first place, you wont have as much desire to give it later.

I'm 23, a virgin, and baffled at how many guys are slaves to their genitals. I have no problem resisting the urges, whatsoever, so I can testify to one half of the truth in this.

 

[Avatar4321]

How so? I'm not the one who wants to outlaw everything.

You don't see how telling others they are a disease is hypocritical while critisizing them for not being "intolerant bigots"? I thought the hypocrisy was rather obvious.

 

[Avatar4321]

Most of the people I've heard denounce God/Christianity simply don't want their human desires inconvenienced by any morals and/or common sense. Instead of getting rid of and/or repenting heathen beahvior, they instead get rid of God. No God -- no rules.

well said and to the point. Hence the point of my signature.

 

[Avatar4321]

Absolutes...We love to dabble in absolutes. Why? Because we want absolute certainty in the face of an uncertain world. The notion of absolutes is like a warm blanket which insulates us from the harshness of a world full of uncertainty and the fear which that uncertainty breeds. But over time this blanket, like any other becomes careworn and moth-eaten. So it is with absolutes. Since they are absolutes, they are immutable...they cannot change to fit new cricumstances or new knowledge. As a result, they stifle the change and growth needed to keep any society healthy.

Absolutes are rooted in mysticism...they are measured not in terms of their consequences to this life, in this world. Rather they are measured by their consequences in some mythical, metaphysical after-life. Thus they can unintentionally, and in some case intentionally, become inhuman in their consquences to this life, in this world.

That my friends is bully's absolute in life

 

[Avatar4321]

I'm 23, a virgin, and baffled at how many guys are slaves to their genitals. I have no problem resisting the urges, whatsoever, so I can testify to one half of the truth in this.

Having been a virgin longer I can agree with everything you and I have said as well

 

[The ClayTaurus]

Can we have a cock measuring contest as to who was/is a virgin the longest?

 

[The ClayTaurus]

...But they're crusaders intent on forcing their enlightenment on the rest of us...

Funny, I hear that said about Christians all the time.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Why do you assume God is unknowable? Simply because you don't know Him doesn't mean others don't.

I believe I mentionend this elsewhere, but religion is about objectifying and externalizing what are purely subjective and internal experiences. And this process does nothing more than lead to rampant speculation, discord and contention about whose belief is the "correct" view. Wholesale slaughter has been carried out on the basis of such beliefs. History bears this out.

 

[Hobbit]

Funny, I hear that said about Christians all the time.

Say it all you want. Doesn't make it true. Christians, as a whole, haven't been trying to push a political agenda on the country against the will of the majority. We're simply content to try convincing individual people we're right rather than getting the government to tell everybody we're right. Gays, abortionists, and minorities have been lobbying congress to pass laws making it illegal to say they're wrong for years. Remember when a church group got arrested at a gay pride rally for preaching in a public area? The gays assaulted them, yet they got arrested. Now tell me about how the evil Christians are making you do what they want.

I believe I mentionend this elsewhere, but religion is about objectifying and externalizing what are purely subjective and internal experiences. And this process does nothing more than lead to rampant speculation, discord and contention about whose belief is the "correct" view. Wholesale slaughter has been carried out on the basis of such beliefs. History bears this out.

Wholesale slaughter has only occurred in the name of Christianity when the word of God has been twisted. As far as that other stuff about religion, that's just your opinion. I don't know why you keep insisting the non-existance of God is a fact. Do you have proof or does it just make you feel superior to denounce the existence of a higher being?

 

[The ClayTaurus]

Say it all you want. Doesn't make it true. Christians, as a whole, haven't been trying to push a political agenda on the country against the will of the majority. We're simply content to try convincing individual people we're right rather than getting the government to tell everybody we're right. Gays, abortionists, and minorities have been lobbying congress to pass laws making it illegal to say they're wrong for years. Remember when a church group got arrested at a gay pride rally for preaching in a public area? The gays assaulted them, yet they got arrested. Now tell me about how the evil Christians are making you do what they want.

I didn't say it, I said I've heard it. I find it funny that both sides are bitching about the same thing of the other side. You looked entirely too deep into my post, and then managed to turn it into some political thing.

 

[GotZoom]

Wrong. It's because priests are not allowed to have sex with anybody, not even women. When you go that long without getting any gratification, it's got to be hard to control yourself. That policy just is not N*SYNC with human nature.

So the Catholic Priests who molest young children do it because their church doctrine directs them to be celibate.

They have all kinds of "outlets" to violate their religion's code - to have sex...masturbation, each other, women, etc.

But instead, they ....CHOOSE.... little boys.

 

[dmp]

Are you so certain?

absolutely.


re: comparing a gay person to a klansmen.

I'm nausiated everytime I see such bullshit..."How can you COMPARE a Gay man to a Racist!" said in shock.

it's easy.

It's easy to compare LOTS of things, and really is no big deal.

Let's compare a gay man to a dog.

Gay man: Human
dog: Canine

Now, let's compare a gay man to a hurricane.

Gay man: Wearing pink capri pants.
Hurricane: Force of nature with very powerful wind

Now, Let's compare a gay man to...Uranus

Gay man: Enjoys having sex with other men.
Uranus: Very distant planet

What's the problem? His illustration was correct - Placing somebody in a position in an organization which has beliefs CONTRARY to that person's lifestyle or beliefs isn't appropriate.

 

[GotZoom]

absolutely.




Let's compare a gay man to a dog.

Gay man: Human
dog: Canine

Both hump whatever they can.

Now, let's compare a gay man to a hurricane.

Gay man: Wearing pink capri pants.
Hurricane: Force of nature with very powerful wind

Both like to blow.

Now, Let's compare a gay man to...Uranus

Gay man: Enjoys having sex with other men.
Uranus: Very distant planet

Easy - self-explanatory. Distant place is the key phrase.


I know....I'm going to hell.

 

[The ClayTaurus]

absolutely.


re: comparing a gay person to a klansmen.

I'm nausiated everytime I see such bullshit..."How can you COMPARE a Gay man to a Racist!" said in shock.

it's easy.

It's easy to compare LOTS of things, and really is no big deal.

Let's compare a gay man to a dog.

Gay man: Human
dog: Canine

Now, let's compare a gay man to a hurricane.

Gay man: Wearing pink capri pants.
Hurricane: Force of nature with very powerful wind

Now, Let's compare a gay man to...Uranus

Gay man: Enjoys having sex with other men.
Uranus: Very distant planet

What's the problem? His illustration was correct - Placing somebody in a position in an organization which has beliefs CONTRARY to that person's lifestyle or beliefs isn't appropriate.

Uranus: Very distant planet
Gay man: Enjoys having sex with your anus.


The analogy was a bit strained, however, because the klansmen seeks to kill all black people, or at least keep them enslaved.

The gay guy isn't trying to do that to any of the parishoners, hence why the comparison isn't the best of choice.

Just like the argument that you shouldn't compare the gay rights struggle with the civil rights struggle.

Sure, you can compare them, it might not be appropriate, though.