Memorial Day Truth

[georgephillip]

"Facing the truth is hard to do, especially the truth about ourselves.

"So Americans have been sorely pressed to come to terms with the fact that after 9/11 our government began to torture people, and did so in defiance of domestic and international law.

"Most of us haven’t come to terms with what that meant, or means today, but we must reckon with torture, the torture done in our name, allegedly for our safety.

"It’s no secret such cruelty occurred; it’s just the truth we’d rather not think about.

"But Memorial Day is a good time to make the effort.

On Memorial Day Weekend, America Reckons with Torture | Common Dreams

Recently the current president of Brazil who was imprisoned and tortured repeatedly by the military dictators who ruled her country for 25 years has commented on Brazil's commission investigating the dictatorship: "'We are not moved by revenge, hate or a desire to rewrite history. The need to know the full truth is what moves us.'"

"In other words, 'You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.'"

Interjecting a few minutes of discomfort in terrorists to our annual rememberance of those who died in the cause of freedom is as low-down and wrong as it gets.

You are truly fucked up.

Not as fucked up as those "...born with the spirit of storm in their blood" who will kill anyone their corporate government tells them to.

"So here we are, into our eleventh year after 9/11, still at war in Afghanistan, still at war with terrorists, still at war with our collective conscience as we grapple with how to protect our country from attack without violating the basic values of civilization — the rule of law, striving to achieve our aims without corrupting them, and restraint in the use of power over others, especially when exercised in secret."

The maiming, murder, displacement, and incarceration of millions of innocent Muslims during the last 11 years guarantees another generation of profit$ for Wall Street amidst "restless harbingers of violence and bloodshed" for those too ignorant to know when they're being played.

On Memorial Day Weekend, America Reckons with Torture | Common Dreams

 

[georgephillip]

The second law of Artevelde: "The use of the word truth in the title of a posting increases the likelyhood that it will contain lies."

Please mention that to Dick, Dubya, and Rummie, when you see them at the Hague.

"The other day, eight members of the Bush Administration – including President Bush, Vice President Cheney, and Defense Secretary Rumsfeld – were found guilty of torture and other war crimes by an unofficial tribunal meeting in Malaysia.

"The story was played widely in parts of the world press, with reports that the judgment could lead the way to proceedings before the International Criminal Court in The Hague. It received almost no mention here in the United States."

On Memorial Day Weekend, America Reckons with Torture | Common Dreams

Ah, you are one of those supporters of stupid propaganda courts. Really a loser.

Are you one of those stupid losers who think war crimes should be rewarded?

 

[skookerasbil]

"Facing the truth is hard to do, especially the truth about ourselves.

"So Americans have been sorely pressed to come to terms with the fact that after 9/11 our government began to torture people, and did so in defiance of domestic and international law.

"Most of us haven’t come to terms with what that meant, or means today, but we must reckon with torture, the torture done in our name, allegedly for our safety.

"It’s no secret such cruelty occurred; it’s just the truth we’d rather not think about.

"But Memorial Day is a good time to make the effort.

On Memorial Day Weekend, America Reckons with Torture | Common Dreams

Recently the current president of Brazil who was imprisoned and tortured repeatedly by the military dictators who ruled her country for 25 years has commented on Brazil's commission investigating the dictatorship: "'We are not moved by revenge, hate or a desire to rewrite history. The need to know the full truth is what moves us.'"

"In other words, 'You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.'"

Geez.......does this dolt ever stop referenceing this fake website Common Dreams?

s0n.........nobody cares. Time to get OCD about something else. Dick Cheney won this round. Suck it up and move on.

 

[georgephillip]

Well to paraphrase...

When you sacrifice principles in exchange for security, you'll end up with neither.

So you mean stealing, by threat of force, from others only to give it to someone else as a handout (on behalf of social security, or welfare security, etc) is wrong?

That would be taking from another to ensure some kind of security for another.

Or like elected Republicans AND Democrats giving rich parasites like French Mitt a 15% tax rate instead of the 35% rate that US workers pay.

That would be taking from those who work and die for this country to ensure the security of another yellow, draft dodging conservative rich bitch.

 

[georgephillip]

"Facing the truth is hard to do, especially the truth about ourselves.

"So Americans have been sorely pressed to come to terms with the fact that after 9/11 our government began to torture people, and did so in defiance of domestic and international law.

"Most of us haven’t come to terms with what that meant, or means today, but we must reckon with torture, the torture done in our name, allegedly for our safety.

"It’s no secret such cruelty occurred; it’s just the truth we’d rather not think about.

"But Memorial Day is a good time to make the effort.

On Memorial Day Weekend, America Reckons with Torture | Common Dreams

Recently the current president of Brazil who was imprisoned and tortured repeatedly by the military dictators who ruled her country for 25 years has commented on Brazil's commission investigating the dictatorship: "'We are not moved by revenge, hate or a desire to rewrite history. The need to know the full truth is what moves us.'"

"In other words, 'You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.'"

Geez.......does this dolt ever stop referenceing this fake website Common Dreams?

s0n.........nobody cares. Time to get OCD about something else. Dick Cheney won this round. Suck it up and move on.

Just for you and your good bud, Dick:

"At least eight members of an Afghan family have been killed, including six children, after an airstrike by the US-led NATO coalition in Afghanistan. The missiles hit late Saturday night in the eastern province of Paktia, according to officials.

“'Shafi was not a Taliban. He was not in any opposition group against the government. He was a villager,' Samon said. 'Right now, we are working on this case to find out the ages of their children and how many of them are boys and girls.'”

Afghan Family of Eight, Including Six Children, Killed in Nato Missile Attack | Common Dreams

Still sucking up to baby killer$...???

 

[buckeye45_73]

"Facing the truth is hard to do, especially the truth about ourselves.

"So Americans have been sorely pressed to come to terms with the fact that after 9/11 our government began to torture people, and did so in defiance of domestic and international law.

"Most of us haven’t come to terms with what that meant, or means today, but we must reckon with torture, the torture done in our name, allegedly for our safety.

"It’s no secret such cruelty occurred; it’s just the truth we’d rather not think about.

"But Memorial Day is a good time to make the effort.

On Memorial Day Weekend, America Reckons with Torture | Common Dreams

Recently the current president of Brazil who was imprisoned and tortured repeatedly by the military dictators who ruled her country for 25 years has commented on Brazil's commission investigating the dictatorship: "'We are not moved by revenge, hate or a desire to rewrite history. The need to know the full truth is what moves us.'"

"In other words, 'You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.'"

Ok when you use the word truth, put some in your post. You dont think the US ever tortured people BEFORE 9/11? That right their exposes your arguement as political and therefore useless and invalid. we have tortured people far worse before 9/11. Waterboarding would have been a vacation for them.

 

[georgephillip]

Lets take the "torture" debate to an even closer-to-home example.

Each of you answer honestly.

Lets say the local Police Department has caught a person. And that person, along with another man, kidnapped your daughter. Their plan was to rape her for a week, then slowly kill her. Sick bastards, right? Well, they nabbed one of them on the 2nd day. The other guy? He's still out there, with your daughter, in an unknown abandoned building. Where? He wont say. His partner still has 5 days of fun left til they kill her.

What would you be willing to allow the cops to do to get that information? Beat him? Waterboard him? Deprive him of sleep and food? Threaten him?

Or would your morals say "NO, even though it may save my daughter, I cannot let the cops go beyond our principles. I'll take the sacrifice."

Of course not.

Let's imagine Chelsea Clinton, Liz Cheney, the Bush twins, and Barry's girls are the next victims of a Hellfire missile.

Think the war's over?

 

[georgephillip]

"Facing the truth is hard to do, especially the truth about ourselves.

"So Americans have been sorely pressed to come to terms with the fact that after 9/11 our government began to torture people, and did so in defiance of domestic and international law.

"Most of us haven’t come to terms with what that meant, or means today, but we must reckon with torture, the torture done in our name, allegedly for our safety.

"It’s no secret such cruelty occurred; it’s just the truth we’d rather not think about.

"But Memorial Day is a good time to make the effort.

On Memorial Day Weekend, America Reckons with Torture | Common Dreams

Recently the current president of Brazil who was imprisoned and tortured repeatedly by the military dictators who ruled her country for 25 years has commented on Brazil's commission investigating the dictatorship: "'We are not moved by revenge, hate or a desire to rewrite history. The need to know the full truth is what moves us.'"

"In other words, 'You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.'"

Ok when you use the word truth, put some in your post. You dont think the US ever tortured people BEFORE 9/11? That right their exposes your arguement as political and therefore useless and invalid. we have tortured people far worse before 9/11. Waterboarding would have been a vacation for them.

So all political arguments are "useless and invalid?"
Who knew??

Just because the US used torture to extract confessions before 911 doesn't mean that torture didn't become more common afterwards.

"After 9/11, our government turned to torture, seeking information about the terrorists who committed the atrocity and others who might follow after them. Senior officials ordered the torture of men at military bases and detention facilities in Afghanistan and Iraq, in secret CIA prisons set up across the globe, and in other countries – including Libya and Egypt — where abusive regimes were asked to do Washington’s dirty work."

On Memorial Day Weekend, America Reckons with Torture | Common Dreams

 

[georgephillip]

And it isn't torture.

Have you tried it?

Do you believe it's "cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment.?"

What was cruel and inhuman was having hundreds of people have to decide whether they wanted to jump to their deaths or burn. I'm not going to cry because we poured water on someone's face or made them listen to music they didn't like.

I suspect you are also unwilling to consider why those planes were flown into the twin towers.
Maybe it was thousands of US troops occupying Saudi soil?
Or maybe it was 46,000 Iraqi children murdered by US bombs and UN sanctions prior to 911?
Maybe you think the US can murder,maim, incarcerate, and displace as many innocent human beings as it likes without any consequences or tears?

 

[georgephillip]

My and my buds waterboard for fun on slow days.

Don't be stupid.


http://www.usmessageboard.com/politics/167005-a-conservatives-view-on-waterboarding.html#post3632006

Too Late.

Some of the USMB cons would waterboard (at least) their mothers if someone in authority told them to do so.

"But the case against waterboarding never rested primarily on its usefulness. It rested on its wrongfulness. It is wrong when bad guys do it to good guys. It is just as wrong when good guys do it to Al Qaeda."

Ends don’t justify the means - The Boston Globe

 

[buckeye45_73]

speaking of clinton and bush's daughters. Democratic daughters are absolute dogs, they need to get with some on the commie models/actresses or something. I cant go to their public events, lest I turn to stone.

 

[buckeye45_73]

"Facing the truth is hard to do, especially the truth about ourselves.

"So Americans have been sorely pressed to come to terms with the fact that after 9/11 our government began to torture people, and did so in defiance of domestic and international law.

"Most of us haven’t come to terms with what that meant, or means today, but we must reckon with torture, the torture done in our name, allegedly for our safety.

"It’s no secret such cruelty occurred; it’s just the truth we’d rather not think about.

"But Memorial Day is a good time to make the effort.

On Memorial Day Weekend, America Reckons with Torture | Common Dreams

Recently the current president of Brazil who was imprisoned and tortured repeatedly by the military dictators who ruled her country for 25 years has commented on Brazil's commission investigating the dictatorship: "'We are not moved by revenge, hate or a desire to rewrite history. The need to know the full truth is what moves us.'"

"In other words, 'You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.'"

Ok when you use the word truth, put some in your post. You dont think the US ever tortured people BEFORE 9/11? That right their exposes your arguement as political and therefore useless and invalid. we have tortured people far worse before 9/11. Waterboarding would have been a vacation for them.

So all political arguments are "useless and invalid?"
Who knew??

Just because the US used torture to extract confessions before 911 doesn't mean that torture didn't become more common afterwards.

"After 9/11, our government turned to torture, seeking information about the terrorists who committed the atrocity and others who might follow after them. Senior officials ordered the torture of men at military bases and detention facilities in Afghanistan and Iraq, in secret CIA prisons set up across the globe, and in other countries – including Libya and Egypt — where abusive regimes were asked to do Washington’s dirty work."

On Memorial Day Weekend, America Reckons with Torture | Common Dreams

I know you dont belive this crap. Ever hear of WW2, Vietnam, ect.....Tribunals were the nicest thing they had to face. It's joke when you compare waterboarding to torture, or tribunals to torture, you're an idiot liberal that has no idea of how reality works. You're probably judging civilizations on what they did thousands of years ago, by your own modern values and have no context for the world in which they lived, correct?

As for now, I'm all for torture. It works, and it's your enemies. If we're talking about American citizens, they yeah, I'd have a problem. They are not citizens, so the Constitution does not apply. And as for internationa agreements, those were divised of modern countries that are on the same level and value system, because those "western" countries are more poitically, socialliy and economically developed and can enforce those rules to some degree. Again it does not apply to terrorists, sorry but terrorists are lower than spies, and spies are among the most hated of military personel, just ask George Washington.

 

[georgephillip]

fuck georgephillip and the donkey he rode in on.

Name the greatest purveyor of violence on this planet.

 

[georgephillip]

"Facing the truth is hard to do, especially the truth about ourselves.

"So Americans have been sorely pressed to come to terms with the fact that after 9/11 our government began to torture people, and did so in defiance of domestic and international law.

"Most of us haven’t come to terms with what that meant, or means today, but we must reckon with torture, the torture done in our name, allegedly for our safety.

"It’s no secret such cruelty occurred; it’s just the truth we’d rather not think about.

"But Memorial Day is a good time to make the effort.

On Memorial Day Weekend, America Reckons with Torture | Common Dreams

Recently the current president of Brazil who was imprisoned and tortured repeatedly by the military dictators who ruled her country for 25 years has commented on Brazil's commission investigating the dictatorship: "'We are not moved by revenge, hate or a desire to rewrite history. The need to know the full truth is what moves us.'"

"In other words, 'You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.'"

Memorial Day is the one day out of the year that we to remember and honor those who gave their lives for this country. Your complete lack of gratitude and respect for those brave men and women, shows you are nothing but human garbage!

Any respect and gratitude for those who kill civilians for money would be misplaced.
The US hasn't faced any threat since the end of WWII that required killing a single civilian.
Those who glorify hired killers based on an accident of birth deserve to find out what shock and awe feel like to those on the receiving end.

 

[skookerasbil]

"Facing the truth is hard to do, especially the truth about ourselves.

"So Americans have been sorely pressed to come to terms with the fact that after 9/11 our government began to torture people, and did so in defiance of domestic and international law.

"Most of us haven’t come to terms with what that meant, or means today, but we must reckon with torture, the torture done in our name, allegedly for our safety.

"It’s no secret such cruelty occurred; it’s just the truth we’d rather not think about.

"But Memorial Day is a good time to make the effort.

On Memorial Day Weekend, America Reckons with Torture | Common Dreams

Recently the current president of Brazil who was imprisoned and tortured repeatedly by the military dictators who ruled her country for 25 years has commented on Brazil's commission investigating the dictatorship: "'We are not moved by revenge, hate or a desire to rewrite history. The need to know the full truth is what moves us.'"

"In other words, 'You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.'"

Geez.......does this dolt ever stop referenceing this fake website Common Dreams?

s0n.........nobody cares. Time to get OCD about something else. Dick Cheney won this round. Suck it up and move on.

Just for you and your good bud, Dick:

"At least eight members of an Afghan family have been killed, including six children, after an airstrike by the US-led NATO coalition in Afghanistan. The missiles hit late Saturday night in the eastern province of Paktia, according to officials.

“'Shafi was not a Taliban. He was not in any opposition group against the government. He was a villager,' Samon said. 'Right now, we are working on this case to find out the ages of their children and how many of them are boys and girls.'”

Afghan Family of Eight, Including Six Children, Killed in Nato Missile Attack | Common Dreams

Still sucking up to baby killer$...???

meh


This debate has been settled for years now. Only the nutters on the far reaches of the internet world still bring it up.

 

[buckeye45_73]

"Facing the truth is hard to do, especially the truth about ourselves.

"So Americans have been sorely pressed to come to terms with the fact that after 9/11 our government began to torture people, and did so in defiance of domestic and international law.

"Most of us haven’t come to terms with what that meant, or means today, but we must reckon with torture, the torture done in our name, allegedly for our safety.

"It’s no secret such cruelty occurred; it’s just the truth we’d rather not think about.

"But Memorial Day is a good time to make the effort.

On Memorial Day Weekend, America Reckons with Torture | Common Dreams

Recently the current president of Brazil who was imprisoned and tortured repeatedly by the military dictators who ruled her country for 25 years has commented on Brazil's commission investigating the dictatorship: "'We are not moved by revenge, hate or a desire to rewrite history. The need to know the full truth is what moves us.'"

"In other words, 'You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.'"

Memorial Day is the one day out of the year that we to remember and honor those who gave their lives for this country. Your complete lack of gratitude and respect for those brave men and women, shows you are nothing but human garbage!

Any respect and gratitude for those who kill civilians for money would be misplaced.
The US hasn't faced any threat since the end of WWII that required killing a single civilian.
Those who glorify hired killers based on an accident of birth deserve to find out what shock and awe feel like to those on the receiving end.

do you just speak what your prosfessor tells you to? What civillians? Sorry when you have a war going on people may get hurt, kinda like when al queda declared war on 9/11, but you dont care about our civillians do ya, maybe because it was wall street? MAybe OWS was behind 9/11...we need to investigate that for the kooks out there.

hired killers? accidental birth, wow you got the commie university lingo down. Lets toss out socioeconomic, communism has never been tried, and hey, I found this article

John's List of Liberal Code Phrases


Just repeat the liberal side of it.

 

[skookerasbil]

"Facing the truth is hard to do, especially the truth about ourselves.

"So Americans have been sorely pressed to come to terms with the fact that after 9/11 our government began to torture people, and did so in defiance of domestic and international law.

"Most of us haven’t come to terms with what that meant, or means today, but we must reckon with torture, the torture done in our name, allegedly for our safety.

"It’s no secret such cruelty occurred; it’s just the truth we’d rather not think about.

"But Memorial Day is a good time to make the effort.

On Memorial Day Weekend, America Reckons with Torture | Common Dreams

Recently the current president of Brazil who was imprisoned and tortured repeatedly by the military dictators who ruled her country for 25 years has commented on Brazil's commission investigating the dictatorship: "'We are not moved by revenge, hate or a desire to rewrite history. The need to know the full truth is what moves us.'"

"In other words, 'You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.'"

Memorial Day is the one day out of the year that we to remember and honor those who gave their lives for this country. Your complete lack of gratitude and respect for those brave men and women, shows you are nothing but human garbage!

Any respect and gratitude for those who kill civilians for money would be misplaced.
The US hasn't faced any threat since the end of WWII that required killing a single civilian.
Those who glorify hired killers based on an accident of birth deserve to find out what shock and awe feel like to those on the receiving end.

America haters are gay s0n....................fringe too, so we're real proud of ya!!

 

[georgephillip]

Ok when you use the word truth, put some in your post. You dont think the US ever tortured people BEFORE 9/11? That right their exposes your arguement as political and therefore useless and invalid. we have tortured people far worse before 9/11. Waterboarding would have been a vacation for them.

So all political arguments are "useless and invalid?"
Who knew??

Just because the US used torture to extract confessions before 911 doesn't mean that torture didn't become more common afterwards.

"After 9/11, our government turned to torture, seeking information about the terrorists who committed the atrocity and others who might follow after them. Senior officials ordered the torture of men at military bases and detention facilities in Afghanistan and Iraq, in secret CIA prisons set up across the globe, and in other countries – including Libya and Egypt — where abusive regimes were asked to do Washington’s dirty work."

On Memorial Day Weekend, America Reckons with Torture | Common Dreams

I know you dont belive this crap. Ever hear of WW2, Vietnam, ect.....Tribunals were the nicest thing they had to face. It's joke when you compare waterboarding to torture, or tribunals to torture, you're an idiot liberal that has no idea of how reality works. You're probably judging civilizations on what they did thousands of years ago, by your own modern values and have no context for the world in which they lived, correct?

As for now, I'm all for torture. It works, and it's your enemies. If we're talking about American citizens, they yeah, I'd have a problem. They are not citizens, so the Constitution does not apply. And as for internationa agreements, those were divised of modern countries that are on the same level and value system, because those "western" countries are more poitically, socialliy and economically developed and can enforce those rules to some degree. Again it does not apply to terrorists, sorry but terrorists are lower than spies, and spies are among the most hated of military personel, just ask George Washington.

Who gets your vote for the greatest purveyor of violence on this planet, Einstein?

Fuck off with the "thousands of years ago" shit and tell me which country incinerated Hiroshima and Nagasaki? The same one that butchered thousands of Koreans and Vietnamese for market share and Rockefeller oil interests. The same "shining light on a hill" that's maimed, murdered, incarcerated and displaced millions of Iraqis.

Those who believe war crimes can never apply to any country they were born in are the ones who need a reality lesson. Clean you own government of terrorists before worrying about any others.

 

[buckeye45_73]

And george I explained the whole concpet of terrorism and why they can be tortured. They are lower than spies, and lets see what the Geneva convention has to say.
International Humanitarian Law - Fourth 1949 Geneva Convention
"' Article 29 '. -- A person can only be considered a spy when, acting clandestinely or on false pretences, he obtains or endeavours to obtain information in the zone of operations of a belligerent with the intention of communicating it to the hostile party.
Thus, soldiers not wearing a disguise who have penetrated into the zone of operations of the hostile army, for the purpose of obtaining information, are not considered spies. Similarly, the following are not considered spies: soldiers and civilians carrying out their mission openly, entrusted with the delivery of despatches intended either for their own army or for the enemy's army. To this class belong likewise persons sent in balloons for the purpose of carrying despatches and, generally, of maintaining communications between the different parts of an army or a territory."

So in other words, if you have a military uniform you're protected and if you dont it depends, but if you're a spy, you hope for a quick death (hence why you see them with cyanide capsules in the movies). Sio there is YOUR Geneva convention....I win....again

 

[The T]

So all political arguments are "useless and invalid?"
Who knew??

Just because the US used torture to extract confessions before 911 doesn't mean that torture didn't become more common afterwards.

"After 9/11, our government turned to torture, seeking information about the terrorists who committed the atrocity and others who might follow after them. Senior officials ordered the torture of men at military bases and detention facilities in Afghanistan and Iraq, in secret CIA prisons set up across the globe, and in other countries – including Libya and Egypt — where abusive regimes were asked to do Washington’s dirty work."

On Memorial Day Weekend, America Reckons with Torture | Common Dreams

I know you dont belive this crap. Ever hear of WW2, Vietnam, ect.....Tribunals were the nicest thing they had to face. It's joke when you compare waterboarding to torture, or tribunals to torture, you're an idiot liberal that has no idea of how reality works. You're probably judging civilizations on what they did thousands of years ago, by your own modern values and have no context for the world in which they lived, correct?

As for now, I'm all for torture. It works, and it's your enemies. If we're talking about American citizens, they yeah, I'd have a problem. They are not citizens, so the Constitution does not apply. And as for internationa agreements, those were divised of modern countries that are on the same level and value system, because those "western" countries are more poitically, socialliy and economically developed and can enforce those rules to some degree. Again it does not apply to terrorists, sorry but terrorists are lower than spies, and spies are among the most hated of military personel, just ask George Washington.

Who gets your vote for the greatest purveyor of violence on this planet, Einstein?

Fuck off with the "thousands of years ago" shit and tell me which country incinerated Hiroshima and Nagasaki? The same one that butchered thousands of Koreans and Vietnamese for market share and Rockefeller oil interests. The same "shining light on a hill" that's maimed, murdered, incarcerated and displaced millions of Iraqis.

Those who believe war crimes can never apply to any country they were born in are the ones who need a reality lesson. Clean you own government of terrorists before worrying about any others.

WHY do you ignore the butchers like Mao, Stalin, Saddam, Hitler, Pol Pot, and a plethora of others and SIDE rather with them?