McCain booed after trying to calm anti-Obama crowd

[elvis]

why is ayers not considered a danger to society, but chapman is?

 

[Modbert]

why is ayers not considered a danger to society, but chapman is?

Chapman has murdered someone, he is not mentally sane.

Ayers has not murdered anyone, he is mentally sane.

 

[elvis]

Chapman has murdered someone, he is not mentally sane.

Ayers has not murdered anyone, he is mentally sane.

so, once again,

because ayers wasn't successful,

he's fine. didn't he say recently he wished he would have been successful?

 

[Annie]

Chapman has murdered someone, he is not mentally sane.

Ayers has not murdered anyone, he is mentally sane.

Hmm, not murdered, but...

Book review: Fugitive Days by Bill Ayers

Fugitive Days: A Memoir
Bill Ayers

Beacon Press, 2001 Beacon Press
Cloth ISBN: 0-8070-7124-2, 296 pages
Penguin Group, 2003 us.penguingroup.com
Paper ISBN: 0-14-200255-0

At least since Truman Capote's In Cold Blood it has been acceptable to mix history and fiction. Not that the line between the two has ever been terribly bright. Numerous histories—and innumerable autobiographies—have contained conscious half-truths and outright falsehoods.

So, the first thing that Bill Ayers does right in Fugitive Days: A Memoir is fess up to the fact that he is smudging the facts. He isn't telling all that he remembers. And there is much that he has forgotten. He's remembered things badly, if at all. He has deliberately changed names and locations. You have been warned: this is not history and it is not—despite the subtitle—a memoir. It is a smudged memoir.

So don't come looking for all the facts. They aren't all here.

There's another way in which Fugitive Days is more like fiction than history. It's narrative, not reflective. Ayers tells stories, he doesn't probe motives. It's first-person narrative all the way; we are wrapped by the subjectivity of Bill Ayers. Objectivity has no place here; there's never a glimmer of the world glimpsed through the eyes of anyone else.

Above all this is not a book for those looking for well-considered facts. This is not a book of dispassion. Some thirty years later Ayers is still trying to justify—as he did then—the core Weatherman belief that some forms of violence are tactically useful to achieve just ends.

Not that all forms of violence are legitimate—nor even that all the forms of violence that Weatherman deployed during its relatively brief lifetime were legitimate. The streetfighting tactics unleashed for the Days of Rage in Chicago in October 1969? A strategic mistake. Building a bomb intended to maim or kill soldiers at Fort Dix? A terrible mistake. Setting and detonating bombs that only harmed property? Well…

So much depends on context. This book had the misfortune to be published in September 2001, when the idea of anyone trying to justify the use of bombs seemed monstrous. But 1970 was a different time. The acts of Bill Ayers and the rest of the Weatherman crew can only be understood—if anywhere—within the context of that time: the concurrent violence at home and abroad in the late 1960s and early 1970s.

Though of course, for most people at the time—including most anti-war activists—the acts of Weatherman made no sense. The story of Fugitive Days is not a typical story of a radical of the 1960s. Relatively few supported Weatherman tactics and far, far fewer joined them—at most 300 people were ever members of the Weatherman organization. ....On March 6, 1970, an explosion rocked Eleventh Street in Greenwich Village; the townhouse at number 18 was reduced to rubble. At least five members of the Weatherman organization were in the townhouse at the time of the explosion. Three were killed—Terry Robbins, Diana Oughton, and Ted Gold. Kathy Boudin and Cathy Wilkerson escaped with minor injuries and quickly disappeared. The cause of the explosion was a bomb packed into a briefcase. The bomb was composed of dynamite surrounded by roofing nails. This was not a bomb meant to only destroy property; it was intended for a non-commissioned officers' dance at Fort Dix in New Jersey. Probably it was mishandling of the wiring that caused its premature detonation, though no one knows exactly what happened.

Ayers takes the reader through the townhouse destruction three times in the course of his memoir. His narrative opens with the explosion—or more accurately, his hearing about the explosion in a telephone call placed to a phone booth in a desert location. The second time he relates the explosion in the chronological context of his memoir. A third time he re-imagines the explosion and so reinterprets its significance. The whole point of his memoir, plausibly, is just to set the stage for that final re-imagination.

In his re-imagined townhouse disaster, Diana Oughton is not a victim of misplaced wires but a savior of the lives of the bomb's intended victims. Cognizant of the lives that the bomb would destroy as well as foreseeing the awful trail of destruction that would be created by a whole series of bombings by Weatherman and those who would be inspired by them—not to mention the moral and spiritual, if not physical destruction that would undoubtedly be visited upon the bombers themselves—Diana chooses to connect the wires she knows will destroy the bomb, herself, and her companions. In the dream of Bill Ayers her death was tragic but not absurd: it was noble and virtuous sacrifice.

It is an illusion to imagine a better ending for the tragic young dead, but at least for a moment it's consoling. In such illusions at least some of the parents or spouses or lovers of the 58,000 American soldiers who died in Vietnam must also haved consoled themselves. Imagine the war was not a mistake and they died for a noble and virtuous end. Or imagine the war was a mistake, but by their sacrifice in that misbegotten war the world was spared the excesses of American hubris for a generation.

It is an illusion that history can be run backwards. As it was lived—forwards—the people of Weatherman, like McNamara, like Johnson, when faced with a confusing and frustrating situation, made some wrong decisions and as a result young people died who should not have died so young.

Only those with an ideological ax to grind can regard this history and see only black and white, pure good and absolute evil. Reality is more complex, like the consequences of the townhouse blast.

Three in Weatherman blew themselves up, so the bomb was never delivered to Fort Dix and that carnage never came to pass. Three in Weatherman blew themselves up, so the rest of the Weatherman organization, in consequence, carefully placed subsequent bombs so as to do only damage to property. Three in Weatherman blew themselves up, so tens of thousands on the left denounced the tactics of bombs and violence. Were these good ends? In context, certainly. Do they absolve the actors? Certainly not.

In the end—though not so straightforwardly that the ideologically opposed have noticed—Bill Ayers has made plain the errors of Weatherman, has made plain how good intentions go awry, has made plain how difficult it is to act justly in the glaring headlamps of both fame and self-righteousness.

...

 

[elvis]

In the government's mind, both squeaky and ayers have been rehabilitated.

so once again, you ready to party with squeaky?

 

[Modbert]

so, once again,

because ayers wasn't successful,

he's fine. didn't he say recently he wished he would have been successful?

He did say in 2001 that he wish he would of been successful.

He is talking about that time, he is not talking about currently doing anything.

Stop trying to tilt this in a certain way so your points look better.

 

[Modbert]

Hmm, not murdered, but...

Book review: Fugitive Days by Bill Ayers

So you quoted an entire article to show that?

Ayers has not been found guilty of any murders unless you can prove it.

 

[elvis]

He did say in 2001 that he wish he would of been successful.

He is talking about that time, he is not talking about currently doing anything.

Stop trying to tilt this in a certain way so your points look better.

i am not tilting anything.

you don't think someone who says they wish they'd been successful is a danger to society?

or is it just because it involves the Messiah?

 

[Modbert]

In the government's mind, both squeaky and ayers have been rehabilitated.

so once again, you ready to party with squeaky?

Nope, I rarely party in general. Why would I want to party with someone I don't even know?

Besides, she has committed other crimes in which would give me reason to not hang around her anyway.

 

[Modbert]

i am not tilting anything.

you don't think someone who says they wish they'd been successful is a danger to society?

or is it just because it involves the Messiah?

Kind of hard to believe in an Messiah when you mostly don't believe in a God eh?

Someone who wishes they been successful isn't a danger to society. That lovely Gov't you protect so much has not arrested Ayers, so they don't see him as a threat.

Take full stock of the man, he's not going to be committing any crimes anytime soon.

Besides your missing a point, he said he wishes was successful AT THAT TIME, not saying he wishes he could murder more people currently.

I didn't even grow up in the 60's (and I don't know if you did) but I seem to have a better handle on that time then you.

 

[elvis]

Kind of hard to believe in an Messiah when you mostly don't believe in a God eh?

Someone who wishes they been successful isn't a danger to society. That lovely Gov't you protect so much has not arrested Ayers, so they don't see him as a threat.

Take full stock of the man, he's not going to be committing any crimes anytime soon.

Besides your missing a point, he said he wishes was successful AT THAT TIME, not saying he wishes he could murder more people currently.

I didn't even grow up in the 60's (and I don't know if you did) but I seem to have a better handle on that time then you.

a better handle? and why would that be?
its possible but I doubt it. I can't JUDGE the way you think you can. You make judgments about people and put labels on them all over this website.
I know why he wanted to bomb the pentagon. I know what was going on then. The Arabs have legitimage grievances with the US. but no one would condone what happened in 2001. yet you seem to let ayers off the hook because he is connected to obama.

I don't think Obama is a terrorist. People who call him that have no base for doing so. I don't believe in guilt by association. Otherwise, Dennis Wilson would have been guilty of murder.
I have only been trying to point out why people have a problem with him. but I can't even do that, because people are so enthrawled with him.

 

[Modbert]

a better handle? and why would that be?
its possible but I doubt it. I can't JUDGE the way you think you can. You make judgments about people and put labels on them all over this website.
I know why he wanted to bomb the pentagon. I know what was going on then. The Arabs have legitimage grievances with the US. but no one would condone what happened in 2001. yet you seem to let ayers off the hook because he is connected to obama.

I don't think Obama is a terrorist. People who call him that have no base for doing so. I don't believe in guilt by association. Otherwise, Dennis Wilson would have been guilty of murder.
I have only been trying to point out why people have a problem with him. but I can't even do that, because people are so enthrawled with him.

By saying I make judgements about people and put labels all over this website, your judging me.

You make judgements all the time. I give my opinion, I'm allowed to do that here.

I don't let Ayers off the hook because he is connected to Obama. He went through the legal system, he didn't murder anyone, and has been a upstanding citizen since. Until any of those three are proven otherwise, I don't condemn the man.

You Cons believe in guilt by association, otherwise you wouldn't bring Ayers the fuck up at all.

 

[Annie]

So you quoted an entire article to show that?

Ayers has not been found guilty of any murders unless you can prove it.

You said, 'not murdered', I said, "Hmmm" and provided information-not an entire article-that was about a book he'd written and the story he told. Now it's a 'fact' that three were killed in the townhome. It's a fact that Ayers was tied to whatever it was they were doing. It's also a fact that he got off for prosecutorial misconduct, though even he said, "Guilty as hell, but free as a bird." You can decide anything else for yourself.

 

[elvis]

By saying I make judgements about people and put labels all over this website, your judging me.

You make judgements all the time. I give my opinion, I'm allowed to do that here.

I don't let Ayers off the hook because he is connected to Obama. He went through the legal system, he didn't murder anyone, and has been a upstanding citizen since. Until any of those three are proven otherwise, I don't condemn the man.

You Cons believe in guilt by association, otherwise you wouldn't bring Ayers the fuck up at all.

You judged me here and put a label on me. you just did it. that is not judging, it is stating the obvious.
if i believed in guilt by association, would I have said i DIDNT think obama was a terrorist? hmmmmm

 

[Modbert]

You said, 'not murdered', I said, "Hmmm" and provided information-not an entire article-that was about a book he'd written and the story he told. Now it's a 'fact' that three were killed in the townhome. It's a fact that Ayers was tied to whatever it was they were doing. It's also a fact that he got off for prosecutorial misconduct, though even he said, "Guilty as hell, but free as a bird." You can decide anything else for yourself.

I followed the link, it was the entire story, article, whatever you want to call it.

If he did kill anyone, he would of went to jail for it.

To be honest, I find it fucking stupid we are sitting here discussing William Ayers instead of politics because William Ayers does not represent Barack Obama.

William Ayers and what he did in the 60's holds no water for during the time he knew Obama.

But this is what the Cons want us to do, discuss this and not the issues. Because if we dicuss the issues, we see how bad McCain/Palin really is.

 

[Modbert]

You judged me here and put a label on me. you just did it. that is not judging, it is stating the obvious.
if i believed in guilt by association, would I have said i DIDNT think obama was a terrorist? hmmmmm

Well are you a Republican/Conservative? Republicans in general talking about Ayers 24/7 and saying how wrong Obama is to be even associated with the man is guilt by association.

If you don't vote for Obama because of Ayers, your voting against him because you believe in guilt by association.

You wouldn't say Obama was a terrorist because despite how much you may hate Obama, even you know it's fucking crazy to call him a terrorist. You'd look like a right wing nutjob.

 

[Annie]

I followed the link, it was the entire story, article, whatever you want to call it.

If he did kill anyone, he would of went to jail for it.

To be honest, I find it fucking stupid we are sitting here discussing William Ayers instead of politics because William Ayers does not represent Barack Obama.

William Ayers and what he did in the 60's holds no water for during the time he knew Obama.

But this is what the Cons want us to do, discuss this and not the issues. Because if we dicuss the issues, we see how bad McCain/Palin really is.

Actually there are some very serious reasons to look at their connections, but that takes time to read what has been written. I did not use the entire article, much of it had nothing to do with the deaths in the townhouse. In any case, you chase whatever chimeras you like.

 

[Toro]

Civil rights icon and Georgia congressman John Lewis is accusing John McCain and Sarah Palin of stoking hate, likening the atmosphere at Republican campaign events to those featuring George Wallace, the segregationist former governor of Alabama and presidential candidate. McCain's campaign has responded with a statement in the candidate's name, urging Barack Obama to repudiate Lewis's comments.

"What I am seeing reminds me too much of another destructive period in American history," Lewis said in a statement issued today for Politico's Arena forum. "Sen. McCain and Gov. Palin are sowing the seeds of hatred and division, and there is no need for this hostility in our political discourse."

Lewis didn't accuse McCain of imitating Wallace, but suggested there were similarities.

Jonathan Martin's Blog: John Lewis, invoking George Wallace, says McCain and Palin 'playing with fire' - Politico.com

 

[Modbert]

Actually there are some very serious reasons to look at their connections, but that takes time to read what has been written. I did not use the entire article, much of it had nothing to do with the deaths in the townhouse. In any case, you chase whatever chimeras you like.

Again, what serious reasons would be there to look at their serving on the same Antipoverty Charity board together?

 

[elvis]

Well are you a Republican/Conservative? Republicans in general talking about Ayers 24/7 and saying how wrong Obama is to be even associated with the man is guilt by association.

If you don't vote for Obama because of Ayers, your voting against him because you believe in guilt by association.

You wouldn't say Obama was a terrorist because despite how much you may hate Obama, even you know it's fucking crazy to call him a terrorist. You'd look like a right wing nutjob.

"even" me?

I am not a republican, I have said that 50 times. ayers has nothing to do with why i am not voting for obama. I thought we were talking about it now
for philosophy's sake.