Maybe I Missed It...Does Someone Have A Clue To What NK Is Hoping For?

onedomino said:
NK’s objective is to obtain a non-aggression pact with the US and material largess from SK and Japan. NK has seen what happened to the regimes in Afghanistan and Iraq. It desperately wants to show that the price for taking out the NK government will be too high for the US to tolerate. There is no question that the price is too high. The results of short range nukes missiles fired at SK and Japan are too horrendous to contemplate. The nuke horse has left the barn (thanks to Clinton and Carter) and NK has America’s military sidelined because (among other things) we cannot permit the destruction of the 15 million people that live in Seoul. The only way out of NK’s nuke extortion is a bullet proof ABM system. Are we going to gamble that our ABM system will really work when pressed to knock down an armed weapon? Not if SK, Japan, and the residents of West Coast America have anything to say about it. ABM missiles, however, are not the only way to knock the NK missiles out of the air. There is also the 747 mounted high energy laser that is currently under development. Do not expect any help from China on this issue. The Chinese want to diminish SK influence in NK. They seek to prevent a merger of the two Koreas. The last thing that the Chinese want is a US influenced economic powerhouse on its NE border.


I will not presume to have an answer to what should be done, but I do know that 'diplomacy' and 'appeasement' are not the answer, though it looks like that IS where we are going. We are just laying the groundwork for Iran, a much richer and more technologically capable country than N.K.

All hell is going to break out, down the road. But no one is looking down the road. Nothing new here.

Did you all know there are elections coming up soon?
 
1549 said:
This is actually a little more simple than that. We included North Korea in the 'axis of evil'. We have already attacked Iraq, and rumors always float about future invasions.

I think Kim Jong Il sees this weapons program as leverage. It is obviously a little more difficult to pull the trigger on an invasion of a country that is capable of wiping out a major city.

oooooooo..... we hurt poor wittle Kim Jong Il's wittle feelings!!!! Boo-Hoo!

This just shows how much you lefties fall for Kim Jong Il's propaganda. You lefties are like Pavlov's dogs, you're so used to blaming America for everything, you do it automatically, almost as if by reflex. I'm starting to think every time someone rings a doorbell, you lefties start to drool.....

No, it's not because we invaded Iraq and it's not because we called his regime evil. His regime IS evil, they have more death camps than the Nazis ever did, they do bio and chemical weapons testing on prisoners, they're starving their population, especially kids.

No, Beloved Hemorrhoid started pursuing nuclear weapons technology right after the "agreed framework" he made with the Clinton Administration back in 1994. Back then, he promised NOT to develop nuclear weapons in exchange for nuclear technology... that was 9 years before Iraq, several years before Bush's "axis of evil" speech and while GWB was governor of the state of Texas.

It's a good thing we don't act like Beloved Butthead and launch a missile each time someone called America "the Great Satan", blamed us for all the evil in the world, or called Bush bad names. If we did, we'd need so many missiles, if placed end to end, they'd go to Pluto and back about a thousand times.
 
theHawk said:
Jeez, how many ways did Clinton fuck this country? Anyone have a count?
:smoke:
I'm not sure, but I heard a conservative estimate of somewhere between the number of stars in the galaxy and the number of atoms in the universe.
 
KarlMarx said:
oooooooo..... we hurt poor wittle Kim Jong Il's wittle feelings!!!! Boo-Hoo!

This just shows how much you lefties fall for Kim Jong Il's propaganda. You lefties are like Pavlov's dogs, you're so used to blaming America for everything, you do it automatically, almost as if by reflex. I'm starting to think every time someone rings a doorbell, you lefties start to drool.....

No, it's not because we invaded Iraq and it's not because we called his regime evil. His regime IS evil, they have more death camps than the Nazis ever did, they do bio and chemical weapons testing on prisoners, they're starving their population, especially kids.

No, Beloved Hemorrhoid started pursuing nuclear weapons technology right after the "agreed framework" he made with the Clinton Administration back in 1994. Back then, he promised NOT to develop nuclear weapons in exchange for nuclear technology... that was 9 years before Iraq.

It's a good thing we don't act like Beloved Butthead and launch a missile each time someone called America "the Great Satan", blamed us for all the evil in the world, or called Bush bad names. If we did, we'd need so many missiles, if placed end to end, they'd go to Pluto and back about a thousand times.


I don't have the 'Power' but if I did, this would get a 'red ribbon'! Unfortunately I can't even rep it:

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to KarlMarx again.
 
Kathianne said:
I will not presume to have an answer to what should be done, but I do know that 'diplomacy' and 'appeasement' are not the answer, though it looks like that IS where we are going. We are just laying the groundwork for Iran, a much richer and more technologically capable country than N.K.

All hell is going to break out, down the road. But no one is looking down the road. Nothing new here.

Did you all know there are elections coming up soon?
I agree that appeasement is not the answer. That is why our current negotiating course in Iran will end in failure. Even if there are non-proliferation agreements with Iran and NK, they will continue nuke weapon development in secret. Count on it. On the surface, it appears that regime change is the only answer. But in the case of Iran, military action will lead to worldwide economic chaos, as oil will go to $100/bbl and beyond. As unattractive as that is, it pales in comparison to combat induced regime change in NK which would, at a minimum, result in millions of SK deaths. In the case of Iran and NK, America is suffering from decades of failed foreign policy and head-in-the-sand inaction. The situation is very dark indeed.
 
onedomino said:
I agree that appeasement is not the answer. That is why our current negotiating course in Iran will end in failure. Even if there are non-proliferation agreements with Iran and NK, they will continue nuke weapon development in secret. Count on it. On the surface, it appears that regime change is the only answer. But in the case of Iran, military action will lead to worldwide economic chaos, as oil will go to $100/bbl and beyond. As unattractive as that is, it pales in comparison to combat induced regime change in NK which would, at a minimum, result in millions of SK deaths. In the case of Iran and NK, America is suffering from decades of failed foreign policy and head-in-the-sand inaction. The situation is very dark indeed.

I do NOT think we should go into NK or Iran willy nilly. With that said, I do think if taking down NK were a priority, millions of SK would not HAVE to die. Unlike the 50's, I very much doubt that China would come to the aid of NK, we might actually be doing them a favor, though it wouldn't come through as such. Though they wouldn't come to NK's aid.
 
Kathianne said:
I do NOT think we should go into NK or Iran willy nilly. With that said, I do think if taking down NK were a priority, millions of SK would not HAVE to die. Unlike the 50's, I very much doubt that China would come to the aid of NK, we might actually be doing them a favor, though it wouldn't come through as such. Though they wouldn't come to NK's aid.
You might be right about China, but it would be a big gamble. Anyway, NK would not need China's help to inflict massive damage on SK. For example: "The biggest military concern in striking North Korean nuclear facilities is the threat of North Korean counter-attacks. Seoul, the South Korean capitol, lies within range of North Korean long-range artillery. Five hundred 170mm Koksan guns and 200 multiple-launch rocket systems could hit Seoul with artillery shells and chemical weapons, causing panic and massive civilian casualties. North Korea has between 500 and 600 Scud missiles that could strike targets throughout South Korea with conventional warheads or chemical weapons. North Korea could hit Japan with its 100 No-dong missiles. Seventy percent of North Korean army ground units are located within 100 miles of the demilitarized zone separating North and South Korea, positioned to undertake offensive ground operations. These units could fire up to 500,000 artillery rounds per hour against South Korean defenses for several hours. Finally, if North Korea does have one or two deliverable nuclear weapons, nuclear retaliation (or nuclear threats) would also be available to North Korea leaders." http://cns.miis.edu/research/korea/dprkmil.htm There are lots of sources on this topic. Chemical attacks on Seoul? I have visited Seoul. It is a relatively small area with at least 15 million people, located only a few miles from NK. No, the price of combat induced regime change in NK is too high. We need the best ABM systems that we can possibly develop. But they would not protect us against submarine delivered NK nukes sailing to SK, Japanese or American harbors. As I mentioned, the situation is very dark. We are paying the price for a series of poor foreign policy and military decisions that were made as far back as the 1950s.
 
onedomino said:
You might be right about China, but it would be a big gamble. Anyway, NK would not need China's help to inflict massive damage on SK. For example: "The biggest military concern in striking North Korean nuclear facilities is the threat of North Korean counter-attacks. Seoul, the South Korean capitol, lies within range of North Korean long-range artillery. Five hundred 170mm Koksan guns and 200 multiple-launch rocket systems could hit Seoul with artillery shells and chemical weapons, causing panic and massive civilian casualties. North Korea has between 500 and 600 Scud missiles that could strike targets throughout South Korea with conventional warheads or chemical weapons. North Korea could hit Japan with its 100 No-dong missiles. Seventy percent of North Korean army ground units are located within 100 miles of the demilitarized zone separating North and South Korea, positioned to undertake offensive ground operations. These units could fire up to 500,000 artillery rounds per hour against South Korean defenses for several hours. Finally, if North Korea does have one or two deliverable nuclear weapons, nuclear retaliation (or nuclear threats) would also be available to North Korea leaders." http://cns.miis.edu/research/korea/dprkmil.htm There are lots of sources on this topic. Chemical attacks on Seoul? I have visited Seoul. It is a relatively small area with at least 15 million people, located only a few miles from NK. No, the price of combat induced regime change in NK is too high. We need the best ABM systems that we can possibly develop. But they would not protect us against submarine delivered NK nukes sailing to SK, Japanese or American harbors. As I mentioned, the situation is very dark. We are paying the price for a series of poor foreign policy and military decisions that were made as far back as the 1950s.

I doubt very much that I would be overstating the fact, that if the US planned an attack, with the caveat that NY Times is in a blackout, that the troops at whatever level we have in the South, with aircraft carriers, subs, planes in the area the North would NOT have time to attack the South in any cohesive manner.

The numbers are irrelevant, barring Chinese numbers...
 
Kathianne said:
As the article illustrated, for the past 20 years or so, Kim has used provocation to get what he wanted and it worked. Through the 'rewards' he was able to keep selling weapons, counterfeiting our currency, acting as a drug conduit, and developing nuclear capabilities. This was NOT lost on Iranian up and coming leadership...

Today they watch what the US and UN will do. Will we beg for more talks, as the DNC, China and Russia demand? Will we tell them to f off and blockade? Will we destroy their capabilities? Yeah, Iran is watching.

What we NEED to do, IMO, is shoot one of his missiles down. Doesn't matter how. Parallel an F-15 with heatseekers and blast the sucker out of the sky.

That's MY idea of a message.
 
Kathianne said:
I doubt very much that I would be overstating the fact, that if the US planned an attack, with the caveat that NY Times is in a blackout, that the troops at whatever level we have in the South, with aircraft carriers, subs, planes in the area the North would NOT have time to attack the South in any cohesive manner.

The numbers are irrelevant, barring Chinese numbers...
Maybe...maybe not. Our intelligence regarding NK counterattack capability is probably not comprehensive. Perhaps SK has some good assets on the ground in NK. It would be amazing it they did not. Anyway, I would not gamble the lives of so many South Koreans unless I knew without doubt that a counterattack could be prevented. 500,000 shells per hour sounds like a lot of counterattack to suppress, especially if some of the shells are loaded with chemical and biological weapons. Would you be as willing to risk an NK counterattack if it was located only a few miles from Chicago?
 
onedomino said:
Maybe...maybe not. Our intelligence regarding NK counterattack capability is probably not comprehensive. Perhaps SK has some good assets on the ground in NK. It would be amazing it they did not. Anyway, I would not gamble the lives of so many South Koreans unless I knew without doubt that a counterattack could be prevented. 500,000 shells per hour sounds like a lot of counterattack to suppress, especially if some of the shells are loaded with chemical and biological weapons. Would you be as willing to risk an NK counterattack if it was located only a few miles from Chicago?

We have the assets to turn that counterattack into an "oh shit." To attack, you have to expose yourself. Expose yourself to the assets we have in and around Korea, and you "go away."

Also, do not underestimate the SK military. They're pretty badass on their own.

Are you willing to concede to Kim il Bad Hair's demands from now on as a price of avoiding confronting an idiot with WAY too much power for his meager intelligence to handle?
 
onedomino said:
Maybe...maybe not. Our intelligence regarding NK counterattack capability is probably not comprehensive. Perhaps SK has some good assets on the ground in NK. It would be amazing it they did not. Anyway, I would not gamble the lives of so many South Koreans unless I knew without doubt that a counterattack could be prevented. 500,000 shells per hour sounds like a lot of counterattack to suppress, especially if some of the shells are loaded with chemical and biological weapons. Would you be as willing to risk an NK counterattack if it was located only a few miles from Chicago?

If the threat were that close to Chicago, I would have been hoping for confrontation 30 years ago, seriously. As far as that argument goes, I almost hope this can be dealt with now, so that we can leave SK permanently, they do not deserve our troops there. Seriously, again.
 
Kathianne said:
If the threat were that close to Chicago, I would have been hoping for confrontation 30 years ago, seriously. As far as that argument goes, I almost hope this can be dealt with now, so that we can leave SK permanently, they do not deserve our troops there. Seriously, again.

Actually, I think you have been victimized by the MSM, who only show the "I hate Americans" South Koreans out protesting whatever. I don't recall meeting even one Korean that was rude, or not glad we were there.
 
GunnyL said:
Actually, I think you have been victimized by the MSM, who only show the "I hate Americans" South Koreans out protesting whatever. I don't recall meeting even one Korean that was rude, or not glad we were there.
I've been reading from the MSM and those translated from Korean papers. Their protests have been huge and our guys have been curtailed in where they can go.
 
Kathianne said:
I've been reading from the MSM and those translated from Korean papers. Their protests have been huge and our guys have been curtailed in where they can go.

Could be. Been awhile since I was there, and I wasn't in any major population (spelled: "unrealistic liberal") centers. Guess I only ran into "dumb, redneck red staters.":laugh:
 
GunnyL said:
We have the assets to turn that counterattack into an "oh shit." To attack, you have to expose yourself. Expose yourself to the assets we have in and around Korea, and you "go away."

Also, do not underestimate the SK military. They're pretty badass on their own.

Are you willing to concede to Kim il Bad Hair's demands from now on as a price of avoiding confronting an idiot with WAY too much power for his meager intelligence to handle?
Gunny, I have not doubt that we would win and win quickly. But that would not prevent massive civilian deaths in SK. The specter of such carnage has been the basis of NK deterrence against SK and American invasion. What has changed is the fact that NK now has 10 (maybe more) nukes and is close to being able to threaten America with them. With these nukes they want to extort a non-aggression pact from the Americans and commodities from SK and Japan. Even if we had an effective ABM system, NK would still be able to use other methods to deliver nukes to SK, Japan, and America. NK has several subs. Are we sure that we would be able to intercept a NK suicide sub from getting into Los Angeles harbor? No, combat induced regime change in NK is not a viable option (I wish it was, but it's not) and NK knows it. The missiles recently fired are not because NK is paranoid; they already had effective deterrence. They were fired because NK is a failed economic mess and they seek to extort a non-aggression pact, cash, infrastructure, and commodities.
 
onedomino said:
Gunny, I have not doubt that we would win and win quickly. But that would not prevent massive civilian deaths in SK. The specter of such carnage has been the basis of NK deterrence against SK and American invasion. What has changed is the fact that NK now has 10 (maybe more) nukes and is close to being able to threaten America with them. With these nukes they want to extort a non-aggression pact from the Americans and commodities from SK and Japan. Even if we had an effective ABM system, NK would still be able to use other methods to deliver nukes to SK, Japan, and America. NK has several subs. Are we sure that we would be able to intercept a NK suicide sub from getting into Los Angeles harbor? No, combat induced regime change in NK is not a viable option (I wish it was, but it's not) and NK knows it. The missiles recently fired are not because NK is paranoid; they already had effective deterrence. They were fired because NK is a failed economic mess and they seek to extort a non-aggression pact, cash, infrastructure, and commodities.


the idea that Iraq could be 'over ran' so easily, or even Afghanistan, considering what happened to USSR, was 'common knowledge.' It's the reason for the 'fear' of attacking. NK may well have the 6 nuclear warheads that many fear, but they do NOT have a delivery system. Not for SK, not for anywhere. That much was proved this week.

We may not be 'able' to guarantee interception into LA harbor, but we have a vastly superior record of doing so than NK has on delivering any sort of weapon to LA harbor.

We should wait until they get better at it?
 
onedomino said:
Gunny, I have not doubt that we would win and win quickly. But that would not prevent massive civilian deaths in SK. The specter of such carnage has been the basis of NK deterrence against SK and American invasion. What has changed is the fact that NK now has 10 (maybe more) nukes and is close to being able to threaten America with them. With these nukes they want to extort a non-aggression pact from the Americans and commodities from SK and Japan. Even if we had an effective ABM system, NK would still be able to use other methods to deliver nukes to SK, Japan, and America. NK has several subs. Are we sure that we would be able to intercept a NK suicide sub from getting into Los Angeles harbor? No, combat induced regime change in NK is not a viable option (I wish it was, but it's not) and NK knows it. The missiles recently fired are not because NK is paranoid; they already had effective deterrence. They were fired because NK is a failed economic mess and they seek to extort a non-aggression pact, cash, infrastructure, and commodities.

So you're basically saying give in to them?
 
Kathianne said:
the idea that Iraq could be 'over ran' so easily, or even Afghanistan, considering what happened to USSR, was 'common knowledge.' It's the reason for the 'fear' of attacking. NK may well have the 6 nuclear warheads that many fear, but they do NOT have a delivery system. Not for SK, not for anywhere. That much was proved this week.

We may not be 'able' to guarantee interception into LA harbor, but we have a vastly superior record of doing so than NK has on delivering any sort of weapon to LA harbor.

We should wait until they get better at it?

Look at where onedomino lives.:dev3:
 

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