Matthew 12:40

[pacer]

pacer,

Thanks for the link, but I'm afraid I don't see what is has to do with my question in the OP. I wonder if you might explain why you think that it does?

Wrong thread.

 

[rstrats]

I should also add: "...and who thinks that the 'heart of the earth' is referring to the tomb".

 

[rstrats]

Someone new looking in may know of some writing.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

I probably should have addressed the OP to those who think that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week.

6th day is Friday. Day before the Sabbath. Jews don't execute on the Sabbath. Romans mighta though.

 

[rstrats]

DeltaEmbassy,
Are you a 6th day of the week crucifixion advocate?

 

[amrchaos]

Delta, I think, has a jewish background.

By the way--why not ask a Christian Theologian/Biblical scholar that specializes on the issues surrounding the crucifixion?

 

[rstrats]

amrchaos,
re: "...why not ask a Christian Theologian/Biblical scholar that specializes on the issues surrounding the crucifixion?"


I have, and so far no one has provided any writing. Since this is the religion area of the US Forums, I thought someone looking in here might know of some.

 

[Andylusion]

amrchaos,
re: "...why not ask a Christian Theologian/Biblical scholar that specializes on the issues surrounding the crucifixion?"


I have, and so far no one has provided any writing. Since this is the religion area of the US Forums, I thought someone looking in here might know of some.

I do not think you will find such an answer on a general forum, since extremely few believe in 6 days crucifixion.

That belief system is exceptionally small, and limited. You'll need to go to a forum devoted to those who believe in such a small ideology.

I personally have never met anyone who believed in such a thing.

Expecting to find information here on such an isolated belief system, is like asking about the doctrine of the Thozhiyur Sabha church. With a massive 30K members, all based in India, who generally don't speak any common tongue. Yeah, good luck finding that out.

 

[rstrats]

Andyfusion,
re: "That belief system is exceptionally small, and limited. You'll need to go to a forum devoted to those who believe in such a small ideology. I personally have never met anyone who believed in such a thing."

I find that rather strange since I think the majority believes that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week.

 

[Andylusion]

Andyfusion,
re: "That belief system is exceptionally small, and limited. You'll need to go to a forum devoted to those who believe in such a small ideology. I personally have never met anyone who believed in such a thing."

I find that rather strange since I think the majority believes that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week.

Oooooo. lol.... I was thinking you were nuts, or there was a group of crazy people out there. I thought you were claiming there was a group of Christians who believed in 6 days in the grave. I could actually see there being such a group.

Ok, so the answer to your original question is, no. While it is true that the Jewish idiom is common that a part of day, is counted as a whole day, that wouldn't account for '3 nights'.

For example Esther 4, Esther says "Do not eat or drink for three days, night or day. I and my attendants will fast as you do. When this is done, I will go to the king"

Then it says Esther 5

"On the third day Esther put on her royal robes and stood in the inner court of the palace, in front of the king's hall."

So on the third day, she went in, even though it was only 2 days after she said she would go.

But Jesus specifically said 3 nights. So that fails the test.

There are a number of interesting alternative views about what this means. Was it some meaning lost in the translation? Were there two Sabbaths? Was the Feast on Thursday, and thus he was really crucified on Thursday instead?

All of those are nifty ideas, but to me they are nice possibilities, but more likely the answer is a bit more obvious.

An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale's belly, so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth​

Matthew 12 right? Crazy question for you. This is going to be insane to ask..... but... where do you see "tomb" in there?

It's not there. Can you tell me where else in the Bible, the phrase "heart of the earth" is used to reference death, burial, or anything similar?

No such reference exists.

How did we get the idea he meant the tomb? He certainly never suggest it.

You realize that for Jesus entire ministry, they couldn't touch him. They tried to stone him. Tried to kill him. Tried to arrest him. Over and over, they did everything they could to get him, but he would disappear, walk away, and escape any threat.

They couldn't lay a finger on him, until Thursday night.

When you go back to Jonah, Jonah specifically talks about his affliction. When did Jesus affliction start? Either when he was betrayed, or when he was beaten at the house of Caiaphas. In either case, it was night.

So if you start the 3 days and 3 nights, from the time of the betrayal, or Caiaphas house, the time line matches up perfectly.

By the way, if you look at other places describing the resurrection on the third day, when does the time line start in the text? Matthew 16:21

From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.​

See? He didn't start with "he must be killed and on the third day be raised" He started with "suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law".

In Luke 24:19, a couple of the disciples are asked what they are talking about.

“About Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. “He was a prophet, powerful in word and deed before God and all the people. The chief priests and our rulers handed him over to be sentenced to death, and they crucified him; but we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel. And what is more, it is the third day since all this took place. In addition, some of our women amazed us. They went to the tomb early this morning but didn’t find his body. They came and told us that they had seen a vision of angels, who said he was alive."​

Even the disciples did not start the events from the crucifixion, but rather when he was taken by the chief priests.

So, that is my view. I think the "heart of the earth" being a reference to the tomb, is false. Some well meaning, but mistaken people assumed he meant the tomb. But if Jesus had meant the tomb, he would have said the tomb.

 

[rstrats]

Andylusion,
re: "...so the answer to your original question is, no."

OK, someone else looking in may know of some writing.

 

[amrchaos]

Here is another question for you as well:

Why is it important to have a correct understanding of this passage?

By the way, you really shouldn't look for experts/scholars on a public, although experts/scholars may pop in.

 

[rstrats]

amrchaos,

re: "Why is it important to have a correct understanding of this passage?"

For the purpose of this topic, it isn't. I'm simply curious if there are any examples of writing to support the 6th day of the week crucifixion/1st day of the week resurrection proponet's assertion that Matthew 12:40 is using common Jewish idiomatic language.



re: "By the way, you really shouldn't look for experts/scholars on a public..."

Examples from anyone will be fine.

 

[rstrats]

With the new year upon us, maybe there will be someone new looking in who knows of examples as requested in the OP and clarified in subsequent posts. And again, remember that the purpose of this topic is not to discuss how long the Messiah was in the heart of the earth. As stated, there are other topics that do that. However, there are those who say that Matthew 12:40 is using common Jewish idiomatic language such as the Messiah saying that He would be in the heart of the earth for 3 nights when He knew that it would only be for 2 nights. But in order to say that it was common, one would have to know of other instances where the same pattern had to have been used. I am simply looking for some of those instances, scriptural or otherwise. So far no one has come forth with any.

 

[the_human_being]

Whenever the three days and three nights of Matthew 12:40 is brought up in a “discussion” with 6th day crucifixion folks, they frequently argue that it is a Jewish idiom for counting any part of a day as a whole day. I wonder if anyone has documentation that shows that the phrase “x” days and “x”nights was ever used in the first century or before when it absolutely didn’t include at least parts of the “x” days and at least parts of the “x” nights?

Well, why not try researching it?

 

[HaShev]

Whenever the three days and three nights of Matthew 12:40 is brought up in a “discussion” with 6th day crucifixion folks, they frequently argue that it is a Jewish idiom for counting any part of a day as a whole day. I wonder if anyone has documentation that shows that the phrase “x” days and “x”nights was ever used in the first century or before when it absolutely didn’t include at least parts of the “x” days and at least parts of the “x” nights?

1) it is less then 3 days they so fallaciously try and plagiarize the OT like the Jonah story, trying to deceptively fulfill their character.
2)it doesn't matter, because the christ sentenced (stoned & Hanged)at passover is Yeshu son of the Harlot Mary of 100bc.
This is not the Galilean figure crucified by Rome for his tax revolt nor the AD era by the Jordan river Christ who's Apostles were martyrs.
3) nobody rose from the dead, they had a VISION appear to them that didn't even look like him, as they didn't recognize him. This sets up a whole other bunch of issues like Satan(Rome was the adversary) getting his way after all as Jesus was worshiped throughout the world just by this imposters appearance saying he rose or the added story.
Or the fact they are recorded to be hallucinogenic mushroom users, doesn't help either.
4)Of course they are just story tellers(known proven liars), if it were real then any con man can say they were their figure and fool them (see the story of St. Germain as proof).
5)if it were real then how do you get trinity when that return in new form=4 a future new name new vessel as they said=5 a far cry from a trinity.
6)they said (as a preacher on TV even preached yesterday That the "spirit of truth" was speaking through him, that it was not him with the message.
That becomes problematic since it's Michael who they are calling the Father in Heaven(messenger) because of
Dan 10:21 which clearly states it's Michael who best knows these truths as the arch messenger of Truth.
7)this is problematic because nobody makes Daniel the one who's speaking through or with( Michael ) so why does Christianity make Jesus the one he says he is "Like Unto"-Rev 1:13 not that he is son of man. The one they say elsewhere that has his own name, a totally other person?

 

[The Irish Ram]

The Bible is pretty clear on the issue. 3 days and 3 nights means Christ died on Wed. No where in the Bible does it say that Christ died on Fri. Good Fri. is dogma. It stems from the fact that they had to hurry and prepare Christ's body with spices before the Sabbath, which starts on Fri. night. Thing is, there were more than one Sabbaths that week. There are 7 high Sabbaths that occur through the year. Going a little further into Matthew to 28:1 he mentions sabbathS, not just one.

 

[HaShev]

Once again ignore the pink neon elephant in the room.
It doesn't matter because you are discussing & teaching a differnt christ then the ad era one, proving my point, you have a compiled figure from many.=fictional character.

 

[guno]

tipofthespear,

re: "May I ask why it matters?"

When asked by the scribes and Pharisees for a sign of his authority, the Messiah said that the only sign would be His entombment for three days AND three nights. If He didn't spend that time in the tomb, then He would not qualify as the Messiah. So why do you think that it is not important as to the length of time?

Do you know of any writing that was asked for in the OP?

Ok, so you are trying to "discredit" Jesus based on the "particular reading" of a specific Scripture...........I read it as it is written.....both in the KJV and the CJB, and I have no problem understanding that Jesus was in the tomb for three days and nights......it may not have been a complete 72 hour time, but do not care, nor believe anyone would try to count it down to the very second, and if Jesus was resurrected ONE OR TWO seconds early, they would then PROCLAIM: AHA! SEE! HE IS NOT THE MESSIAH!

Don't forget when Jesus spoke of destroying the Temple, and He said He would raise it in three days..........and there are other references as well. Buy yourself a KJV, or other translation, and spend some time studying...........there is much to learn...

Jesus Did Not Fulfill the Messianic Prophecies
What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? One of the central themes of biblical prophecy is the promise of a future age of perfection characterized by universal peace and recognition of God. (Isaiah 2:1-4, 32:15-18, 60:15-18; Zephaniah 3:9; Hosea 2:20-22; Amos 9:13-15; Micah 4:1-4; Zechariah 8:23, 14:9; Jeremiah 31:33-34)

Specifically, the Bible says he will:

1. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).
2. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).
3. Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)
4. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world – on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).

If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, then he cannot be the Messiah.

Why Jews Don't Believe In Jesus

 

[rstrats]

the_human_being,

re: "Well, why not try researching it?"

I thought that's what I was doing. If someone is saying that Matthew 12:40 is using common idiomatic language, I'm simply asking if they might provide some examples to support their assertion that it was common.