Mashaal vows to Gaza crowds Hamas will not concede land

as usual tinman and expand cite "points" that are moot. Israel existed in the past as a country ----got renamed "palestine" by the romans and after it was sacked by rome in the first century AD ----was never a "country" again until 1948--
HOWEVER----even it it were ----the contention of tinman and expand that NEW COUNTRIES based on partitions of lands or even of existing countries are somehow not "VALID" countries is the biggest messageboard joke of this
decade. According to tinman----Pakistan does not exist as a valid country-----Bangla desh CERTAINLY does not exist-----the new Independent land SOUTH SUDAN does not exist ----Jordan does not exist ---Saudi arabia would have to invite a whole bunch of christians and jews and zoroastrians etc to be citizens in order to exist ------and california----well----I think it is part of spain but I am not sure
 
irosie91, expand, et al,

War - Not War, Occupied - Owned - Not Owned, Legal - Not Legal - Validity, Border establishment, --- --- --- it is all rhetoric from both sides.

It is only disputed by Israel. International law is quite clear on the matter of the inadmissibility of acquiring any land through the course of war. The lands that Israel acquired during the course of the Six Day War can only be illegally claimed by Israel and there have been countless resolutions acknowledging this fact.

They are still in a state of war because Israel is an occupying power. You cannot occupy another people and their land without being in a state of war, regardless of Hamas' 'declarations'.
wrong "expand" The fact of OCCUPATION does not mean that countries are in a State of War . The USA OCCUPIED japan long after Japan surrendered and the state of war between the USA and Japan was terminated I do not believe that you are all that IGNORANT--------you are simply a typical lying islamo nazi

as to disputed borders------the BORDER between Israel and the west bank was NEVER DETERMINED there is only a truce line You can check maps from books published by your fellow islamo nazis. Some of the land in the "WEST BANK" is OWNED by jews by PURCHASE I understand that for an islamo nazi----purchase of land by a jew is invalid------but OWNERSHIP of land by an islamo nazi pig on the basis of murder, rape and pillage ---is LEGAL These matters do remain in dispute
(COMMENT)

These are all just vollies of accusations via point-counterpoint, ad Hominem exchanges, to justify a continuation of hostilities and to further obstruct a serious dialog between the parties - preventing the ability to work out differences and crafting a viable set of solutions and equitable settlements needed to develop a new relationship between the Arab/Palestinians and Israelis on the realities of today.

People like Khaled Mashaal don't want peace or a settlement; to them it is something entirely different. Schooled in the war torn West Bank, college in Kuwait, a longtime member of the Muslim Brotherhood, ascended to the position of Chairman of the Hamas Political Bureau, having an established relationship Iran, declared "jihad" against Israel, and considers Palestinian Resistance to only acceptable answer to the grievances against Israeli Occupation, it is all about power and domination. It is his life's work; he knows no other way of life. He came to real prominance in '97 when he accepted responsibility for the two Mahane Yehuda Market Bombings (as our friend SherriMunnerlyn would note, killing Gregory Paskhovitz, 15, of Jerusalem, a legitimate victim in the name of Palestinian Resistance). In the mentality exemplified by (but not exclusively held) by Mashaal, and it contagion that has spread through the Palestinian population and beyond, like a plague, the solution to the Arab/Palestinian and Israeli issue until those infected have faded away, and replaced by those who actually want to create something new and bold for the 21st Century.

This nonsense that one side or the other is more right or more wrong than the other - is simply deflecting the truth. The idea that some special providence blankets one above the other, is simply a mental apparition. A higher truth doesn't exist. Only a realization by both parties that the current approach of "tit-for tat" hostile exchanges and the aggravations of old men that are in search of a justice that doesn't exist, THAT it is time for peace will lead to a pathway to peace.

Most Respectfully,
R

This nonsense that one side or the other is more right or more wrong than the other - is simply deflecting the truth.

Israel attacked and occupied Palestine.

Where are the Palestinians wrong in defending their country?
 
irosie91, expand, et al,

War - Not War, Occupied - Owned - Not Owned, Legal - Not Legal - Validity, Border establishment, --- --- --- it is all rhetoric from both sides.

wrong "expand" The fact of OCCUPATION does not mean that countries are in a State of War . The USA OCCUPIED japan long after Japan surrendered and the state of war between the USA and Japan was terminated I do not believe that you are all that IGNORANT--------you are simply a typical lying islamo nazi

as to disputed borders------the BORDER between Israel and the west bank was NEVER DETERMINED there is only a truce line You can check maps from books published by your fellow islamo nazis. Some of the land in the "WEST BANK" is OWNED by jews by PURCHASE I understand that for an islamo nazi----purchase of land by a jew
is invalid------but OWNERSHIP of land by an islamo nazi pig on the basis of murder, rape and pillage ---is LEGAL These matters do remain in dispute
(COMMENT)

These are all just vollies of accusations via point-counterpoint, ad Hominem exchanges, to justify a continuation of hostilities and to further obstruct a serious dialog between the parties - preventing the ability to work out differences and crafting a viable set of solutions and equitable settlements needed to develop a new relationship between the Arab/Palestinians and Israelis on the realities of today.
People like Khaled Mashaal don't want peace or a settlement; to them it is something entirely different. Schooled in the war torn West Bank, college in Kuwait, a longtime member of the Muslim Brotherhood, ascended to the position of Chairman of the Hamas Political Bureau, having an established relationship Iran, declared "jihad" against Israel, and considers Palestinian Resistance to only acceptable answer to the grievances against Israeli
Occupation, it is all about power and domination. It is his life's work; he knows no other way of life. He came to real prominance in '97 when he accepted responsibility for the two Mahane Yehuda Market Bombings (as our friend


SherriMunnerlyn would note, killing Gregory Paskhovitz, 15, of Jerusalem, a legitimate victim in the name of Palestinian Resistance)
. In the mentality exemplified by (but not exclusively held) by Mashaal, and it contagion that has spread through the Palestinian population and beyond, like a plague, the solution to the Arab/Palestinian and Israeli issue until those infected have faded away, and replaced by those who actually want to create something new and bold for the 21st Century.
This nonsense that one side or the other is more right or more wrong than the other - is simply deflecting the truth. The idea that some special providence blankets one above the other, is simply a mental apparition. A higher truth doesn't exist. Only a realization by both parties that the current approach of "tit-for tat" hostile exchanges and the aggravations of old men that are in search of a justice that doesn't exist, THAT it is time for peace will lead to a pathway to peace.

Most Respectfully,
R

This nonsense that one side or the other is more right or more wrong than the other - is simply deflecting the truth.

Israel attacked and occupied Palestine.
Where are the Palestinians wrong in defending their country?


Wrong tinman----the dogs of arabia ATTACKED and OCCUPIED palestine aka
israel/judea-----what is wrong with the JEWS (ie people of Judea) defending
their country?
All people should keep in mind that when OSAMA BIN LADEN spoke to the
world he mentioned as part of his agenda CORRECTING THE TRAGEDY OF ANDALUSIA ----
which---tinman does understand is "ISLAMIC" for ISLAMIC RECONQUEST of SPAIN
ALWAYS REMEMBER----to tinman SPAIN and even SOUTHERN FRANCE is "MUSLIM LAND"
 
Rosie, no offence, but most of your post was simply nonsense. What I will address is this part:

"Arab muslims who lived in the palestine mandate were described as "ARABS" sometimes "arab syrians" I do not know why "expand" feels compelled to lie about this issue."

Directly from the 1937 Peel Commission:

Contents: Chapter XV Nationality Law and Acquisition of Palestinian Citizenship

Yes, that's correct, there's an entire chapter on 'Palestinian' citizenship.

Page 17: were Palestinians

Page 14: Palestinian schools

Page 22: Palestinian conscripts

Page 39: While Article 7 provides for a Palestinian citi?enship
common to Arabs and Jews,


Page 43: From the first the junior posts
were filled by Palestinians, Arab and Jew;

The police were
Palestinian with British officers,;

The rest of
the judges and magistrates were Palestinians. ;

And for the well-being and develop-
ment of the Arabs, who constituted the overwhelming majority
of the Palestinian people


Page 54: Palestinian element in the police diminished;

replaced by Palestinians, Arab and Jew.



Page 55: that in course
of time Arabs and Jews could and would sink their differences in
a common Palestinian citizenship.


Page 56: And
they refused to co-,oper,ate in ,any form ,of government other
than a n:ational government responsible tlo the Palestinian
p, people.


Page 59: The sympathy of the Palestinian Arabs


And so it goes on and on and on and on. It seems, Rosie, that it is you who are proved the liar.

Anyone who is interested in learning about the conspiracy theory of 'No Palestinians', need only read the readily available documented record from that era to learn the truth. Once I reach 15 posts I'll provide the link to the PDF version of the Peel Commission. Until then, it should be first on a Google result of the search: 'Peel Commission PDF'.

Thanks.
 
as usual tinman and expand cite "points" that are moot. Israel existed in the past as a country ----got renamed "palestine" by the romans and after it was sacked by rome in the first century AD ----was never a "country" again until 1948--

Israel did not exist as a country or a state in any modernly definable way.

And in its birth, its inhabitants were a vast majority of European immigrants with no more of an historical tie to the land, and no more a legitimate claim to the land, than Australians would have to Britain. Or African Americans to Africa, or Japanese to China (the list goes on).

For the record, I do believe Israel within its 1967 pre war borders has a right to exist. Too many generations of children have been born on that land to try to wash away a claim. But I do not believe they have even the slightest claim to the Occupied Territories.

And those who attempt to wash away Palestinians' legitimate claims to the land are deplorable characters.

And even by using your definition - modern day Palestinians are actually largely descended from Christians and (mainly) Jews from that era. They have a traceable line of history almost exclusively located in that region (as opposed to European immigrants with a 2000 year history tied elsewhere).
 
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Expand----you have demonstrated that the BRITISH decided at one
point in history------that SOME DAY----the arabs who lived in the
palestine mandate would SOMEDAY along with jews ----be "PALESTINIANS"
as JOINT CITIZENS of a country called "PALESTINE". At the time of
the wirting ----the only people who were called "PALESTINIANS" were jews.

ie----you made a fool of yourself again
 
Erm, no. What I 'demonstrated' (proved) is that the inhabitants of Palestine, both Arab and Jew, were referred to as Palestinians, and that they also defined themselves as such (as far as the Arabs go).

"the only people who were called "PALESTINIANS" were jews."

Sorry, but you are now ever so slightly embarrassing yourself. I have just proven that the above quote is complete and utter nonsense. Why would you even try to continue denying this fact?
 
Hmmm leader of the Fraudestinians makes his first ever visit to the Gaza strip? Hilarious isn't it? the terrorist donkey leader of a people who falsely claim a land...HASN'T EVEN BEEN THERE!

1. He was born in the West Bank, which is part of the internationally recognised Palestinian State.

2. Falsely claim a land? Are you actually being serious here? This should be fun...
His first visit to Gaza. Are you crew or Argyle?
 
Erm, no. What I 'demonstrated' (proved) is that the inhabitants of Palestine, both Arab and Jew, were referred to as Palestinians, and that they also defined themselves as such (as far as the Arabs go).

"the only people who were called "PALESTINIANS" were jews."

Sorry, but you are now ever so slightly embarrassing yourself. I have just proven that the above quote is complete and utter nonsense. Why would you even try to continue denying this fact?
Proof? Where? I'd say crew.
 
Erm, no. What I 'demonstrated' (proved) is that the inhabitants of Palestine, both Arab and Jew, were referred to as Palestinians, and that they also defined themselves as such (as far as the Arabs go).

"the only people who were called "PALESTINIANS" were jews."

Sorry, but you are now ever so slightly embarrassing yourself. I have just proven that the above quote is complete and utter nonsense. Why would you even try to continue denying this fact?
Proof? Where? I'd say crew.

Wrong again expand----at no point did you come up with any statement by any arab living in palestine before 1948 ------remotely suggesting that arabs of palestine CALLED THEMSELVES "PALESTINIANS" you came up with a "for the future" plan
devised by a british person. But do keep searching----if what you claim is true---then
you will have no problem finding such allusions in OLD DOCUMENTS written BY ARABS
 
Erm, no. What I 'demonstrated' (proved) is that the inhabitants of Palestine, both Arab and Jew, were referred to as Palestinians, and that they also defined themselves as such (as far as the Arabs go).

"the only people who were called "PALESTINIANS" were jews."

Sorry, but you are now ever so slightly embarrassing yourself. I have just proven that the above quote is complete and utter nonsense. Why would you even try to continue denying this fact?
Proof? Where? I'd say crew.

I just provided quotes showing that the Arabs (and Jews) of Palestine were referred to as 'Palestinians' as far back as 1937 (in reality it was much farther. From the 1922 Churchill White Paper: 'it is contemplated that the status of all citizens of Palestine in the eyes of the law shall be Palestinian').

Palestinian Nationalism was first envisioned as far back as during the Ottoman Empire and its modern inception was realised during the Mandate of Palestine. Not in the 1960s as some would have us falsely believe.

So, yes, I proved her to be a liar.
 
Wrong again expand----at no point did you come up with any statement by any arab living in palestine before 1948 ------remotely suggesting that arabs of palestine CALLED THEMSELVES "PALESTINIANS" you came up with a "for the future" plan
devised by a british person. But do keep searching----if what you claim is true---then
you will have no problem finding such allusions in OLD DOCUMENTS written BY ARABS

'In 1918, as the Palestinian Arab national movements gained strength in Jerusalem, Jaffa, Haifa, Acre and Nablus, Aref al-Aref joined Hajj Amīn, his brother Fakhri Al Husseini, Ishaaq Darweesh, Ibrahim Daeweesh, Jamal al-Husayni, Kamel Al Budeiri, and Sheikh Hassan Abu Al-So’oud in establishing the Arab Club.

The Faisal-Weizmann Agreement led the Palestinian Arab population to reject the Syrian-Arab-Nationalist movement led by Faisal (in which many previously placed their hopes) and instead to agitate for Palestine to become a separate state, with an Arab majority. '

Palestinian nationalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You cannot have 'Palestinian Nationalism' without the people defining them as 'Palestinians'.

Besides, your claim was: '"the only people who were called "PALESTINIANS" were jews."', not 'the only people who defined themselves as Palestinians'. Doesn't matter, I've shown both claims to be false.

The Churchill White Paper quote: Churchill White Paper - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Peel Commission: Palestine Royal Commission ("Peel Commission") report - UK/Non-UN document (1 July 1937)
 
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How can you claim a state that never existed? No such thing as an Arab Palestinian until the 1960's. no such thing as a Palestinian country. The land was controlled by the British and before that owned by the Ottoman Turks for 600 years. The empire was carved up into the countries we see today after the end of WWII, and "Palestine" was supposed to be Jordan.


The land was under Mandate by the British, with the future plan of creating a state for the Arabs living there (Palestinians) inclusive of a 'national home' for the Jews/Zionists. Haven't you read any of the documents from that era? They are all readily available to anyone with an internet connection.

And I'm not exactly sure how you can try to claim that there was no such thing as a Palestinian before the 60s. This is actually one of the silliest things I've ever heard. Here is the Peel Commission from 1936-37: (I see that I cannot post links yet - Google 'Peel Commission PDF' to find the document).

In it you will note multiple references to indigenous population of Palestine as 'Palestinians'. Hell, they were issuing them with 'Palestinian' passports and referring to them as such as far back as the early 1920s.

Palestine is not, and was never intended to be, Jordan. The letter that promised the Arabs land for their help in WW1 (specifically the Hashemites promised Jordan) never included the lands 'West of the Jordan River'. This is really an entirely silly claim, and was cleared up as far back as 1922 in the British White Paper. That people are still trying to claim nonsense such as this nearly 100 years later is really quite astounding.

The documented record shows your case to be nothing more than a fallacy.

How can someone claim a state that never existed? Really? I could name 10 states that never existed before they were 'claimed' right now off the top of my head - and guess what, Israel happens to be one of them.

A people's claim to a land matters not when their nationalism was born. The only thing that matters is their direct tie to that land (ie, being born there or directly descended from people born there). To which effect, the Palestinians most definitely have a claim to the land of Palestine.
The country Palestine never existed.

"There has never been a land known as Palestine governed by Palestinians. Palestinians are Arabs, indistinguishable from Jordanians (another recent invention), Syrians, Iraqis, etc. Keep in mind that the Arabs control 99.9 percent of the Middle East lands. Israel represents one-tenth of one percent of the landmass. But that's too much for the Arabs. They want it all. And that is ultimately what the fighting in Israel is about today... No matter how many land concessions the Israelis make, it will never be enough." -Arab writer and journalist

Let us hear what other Arabs have said:

"There is no such country as Palestine. 'Palestine' is a term the Zionists invented. There is no Palestine in the Bible. Our country was for centuries part of Syria. 'Palestine' is alien to us. It is the Zionists who introduced it".
- Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi, Syrian Arab leader to British Peel Commission, 1937 -

"There is no such thing as Palestine in history, absolutely not".
- Professor Philip Hitti, Arab historian, 1946 -

"It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but Southern Syria".
- Representant of Saudi Arabia at the United Nations, 1956 -

What other Arabs declared after the Six-Day War:

"There are no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. We are all part of one nation. It is only for political reasons that we carefully underline our Palestinian identity... yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only tactical purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel".
- Zuhair Muhsin, military commander of the PLO and member of the PLO Executive Council -

1920-boundaryconventionmap.jpg


truncatedmap.jpg
 
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you continue to fail expand----now find that PASSPORT that describes an arab muslim as a "PALESTINIAN" so far all you have is ATTEMPTS by some people to foist upon arabs a novel "PALESTINIAN NATIONALITY" which never existed before but which did exist for almost 2000 years for jews
living in palestine aka Judea/israel------all that time----without interruption
 
The country Palestine never existed.

So? The country of 'Pakistan' never existed. The country of 'Afghanistan' never existed. The country of 'Northern Ireland' never existed. The country of 'Germany' never existed. And, believe it or not, the country of 'Britain' at some point never existed.

The subject of when a country's and people's nationalism began, does not in any way reflect their human rights to self-determination. It does not in any way nullify their claim to a land that is theirs; a land they have direct ties to. If half of France decided to break away from the rest and call themselves whatever, then they can because it is their right.

Why on earth do you think that when the country was first called something matters? It is the inhabitants of the land that matter.
 
The country Palestine never existed.

So? The country of 'Pakistan' never existed. The country of 'Afghanistan' never existed. The country of 'Northern Ireland' never existed. The country of 'Germany' never existed. And, believe it or not, the country of 'Britain' at some point never existed.

The subject of when a country's and people's nationalism began, does not in any way reflect their human rights to self-determination. It does not in any way nullify their claim to a land that is theirs; a land they have direct ties to. If half of France decided to break away from the rest and call themselves whatever, then they can because it is their right.

Why on earth do you think that when the country was first called something matters? It is the inhabitants of the land that matter.
So the Jews never stole anyone's "land". The land has been ancient Jewish ancestral land to begin with. The Palestinians want a second Arab terrorist shithole state? Maybe if they behaved like human beings the world and Israel will consider.
 
you continue to fail expand----now find that PASSPORT that describes an arab muslim as a "PALESTINIAN" so far all you have is ATTEMPTS by some people to foist upon arabs a novel "PALESTINIAN NATIONALITY" which never existed before but which did exist for almost 2000 years for jews
living in palestine aka Judea/israel------all that time----without interruption

I'm not sure why I keep replying to you as it has become clear that all you do is make baseless claims and try to wash away documented record with nothing more than your empty claims, but alas, here I am again.

"The Mandatory Palestine passport refers to the travel document that was intended for residents of Mandatory Palestine between 1924 and 1948. From 1926 to 1935 alone approximately 70,000 of such travel documents were granted"

Page 149 of this book: The International Law Foundations of Palestinian Nationality: A Legal ... - Mutaz M. Qafisheh - Google Books

It refers to the 'citizens of Palestine' (which includes Arabs). Now, if you please, provide me with your own 'proof' that they were only issued to Jews?
 
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yes and if the jews of palestine and of the middle east and of parts of europe decide to BREAK AWAY that is their right, too. Muslims EAST BENGAL who invaded less than 1000 years ago decide to displace the HINDUS of east bengal who had been there for more than 5000 years -----as they did----it would have been nice if they had not murdered a million of them in the process.

For that matter it would have been nice if the muslims of the middle
east had not murdered millions of jews of the middle east along the way,
too.

I am all for UNIVERSAL PRINCIPLES of rights equally conferred on ALL
peoples You got some UNIVERSAL RIGHTS you wish to mention---
go right ahead-----so far you WEDGE YOUR ROUND CONCEPTS INTO
SQUARE HOLES
 
The country Palestine never existed.

So? The country of 'Pakistan' never existed. The country of 'Afghanistan' never existed. The country of 'Northern Ireland' never existed. The country of 'Germany' never existed. And, believe it or not, the country of 'Britain' at some point never existed.

The subject of when a country's and people's nationalism began, does not in any way reflect their human rights to self-determination. It does not in any way nullify their claim to a land that is theirs; a land they have direct ties to. If half of France decided to break away from the rest and call themselves whatever, then they can because it is their right.

Why on earth do you think that when the country was first called something matters? It is the inhabitants of the land that matter.

It is the people of a place that matters.

Names are irrelevant.
 

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