Maryland Woman Fined $310 for Killing Police Officer

[Dogger]

That a fact? Sounds like some really fancy footwork to explain a double standard based on what is and is not pollitically correct.

Okay, gunny, let's approach it from another angle. If she had run through a stop sign and killed him, would that be murder, manslaughter or nothing?

 

[Gunny]

I take Dogger’s side on this. Too much relevant information was left out of your piece. With information that Dogger included, a clearer picture is revealed. While I do not condone what she did, it provides more understanding. Circumstances should be taken into account.

So take his side. I'm s-o-o-o hurt.

I posted an article. Simple as that. There was more to the story and Dogger posted it. Good for him. I have no problem with someone posting more articles or information.

If you have a complaint about the article, let Fox News know, not me. I could care less. I was skimming headlines and posted the article. I wasn't aware that came with personal endorsement. Apparently, when a Fox News-hater wants to make a bullshit partisan issue out of it, it does.

 

[Gunny]

Really? You know this how exactly?



http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/factsheets/drving.htm

During 2005, 16,885 people in the U.S. died in alcohol-related motor vehicle crashes, representing 39% of all traffic-related deaths

Since, from your claims, you've never been endangered by a DUI driver, but you have been endangered by speeding drivers (all day long), but yet 39% of all deaths are alcohol related, I'd say its pretty clear that alcohol poses the larger threat on an individual level, which is how we punish people. We don't punish people depending on how many other people do it, we do it based on the crime itself.



I live in NYC now. I've only lived in the city for about a year. I was a delivery driver in undergrad, I ride motorcycles (or I used too), I've driven across the country several times, and I once drove from Cali to NY in 3 days. I have just a wee bit of experience driving as well I'd say.

Yeah, I'll be sure and accept your numbers which does not include the number of fatalities caused by speeding/reckless driving. You present only one side; which, does not refute anything.

You are quite free to believe whateve suits your fancy. It's a double standard. Period. The crime is a motor vehicle operator was driving in violation of the law and killed a cop. That's the EXACT same thing a driver operating under the influence of alcohol is doing -- driving in violation of the law.

Was just wondering about the driving. I've lived all over the country and driven it as well and I know driving in one place isn't necessarily the same as driving in another.

 

[Gunny]

Okay, gunny, let's approach it from another angle. If she had run through a stop sign and killed him, would that be murder, manslaughter or nothing?

My vote would be manslaughter for that as well.

 

[Swamp Fox]

It's a different level of culpability. If she had hit him while fleeing from a bank robbery, most states would treat that as felony murder. Same result plus higher culpability equals dramatically higher prison time.

I hate to agree with Dogshit, but I don't see a case for manslaughter here. I do see a case of poor police practice and if my boss told me to step out on the highway to stop cars, the answer would be, "After you."

Lawyers and other intelligent folk understand nuance and shades of gray.

Lawyer don't understand the shades of gray, they make money exploiting the shades of gray.

 

[Larkinn]

Yeah, I'll be sure and accept your numbers which does not include the number of fatalities caused by speeding/reckless driving.

Speeding is NOT the same as reckless driving.

You present only one side; which, does not refute anything.

Feel free to present the other side. I couldn't find any stats on it so I took your word that speeding is significantly more common than drunken driving. Are you taking that back? Or would you agree that an individual driving drunk is substantially more dangerous than an individual speeding?

By the way...ever been in a car driven by someone drunk? Ever been in a car that was speeding? One is a lot scarier than the other....its not surprising at all that it causes a lot more accidents than speeding.

You are quite free to believe whateve suits your fancy. It's a double standard. Period. The crime is a motor vehicle operator was driving in violation of the law and killed a cop. That's the EXACT same thing a driver operating under the influence of alcohol is doing -- driving in violation of the law.

Thats patently untrue. Its NOT exactly the same thing, since I've specified several differences between them. Ignoring those differences don't make them go away.

Was just wondering about the driving. I've lived all over the country and driven it as well and I know driving in one place isn't necessarily the same as driving in another.

Manhattan is a lot different than Wisconsin is a lot different than California. I like Manhattan driving the best. Controlled chaos at its finest. Wisconsin was boring as fuck, everyone went 5 miles under the speed limit. Took me forever to get out of that state.

 

[Larkinn]

Lawyer don't understand the shades of gray, they make money exploiting the shades of gray.

Impressive that they can exploit it somehow without even understanding it.

 

[Gunny]

There were 39,352 fatal accidents in 2005.

http://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/Main/index.aspx

What do you suppose those other 22,367 fatalities were from?

 

[Swamp Fox]

Impressive that they can exploit it somehow without even understanding it.

Even a blind squirrel can find a nut occassionally..........

 

[Larkinn]

There were 39,352 fatal accidents in 2005.

http://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/Main/index.aspx

What do you suppose those other 22,367 fatalities were from?

A variety of things. Could be drugs. Could be failure to see a stoplight. Could be falling asleep. Could be reckless driving. Could be speeding. Could be they were riding a bike and someone didn't see them.

 

[Larkinn]

Even a blind squirrel can find a nut occassionally..........

Yes, but I doubt they make much money off of it if their successes only come "occasionally".

 

[Swamp Fox]

Yes, but I doubt they make much money off of it if their successes only come "occasionally".

Not with the rates they charge....

 

[Larkinn]

Not with the rates they charge....

And yet people pay that much money despite only "occasional" success. Curious.

 

[Dogger]

Okay, gunny, let's approach it from another angle. If she had run through a stop sign and killed him, would that be murder, manslaughter or nothing?

My vote would be manslaughter for that as well.

Does this story affect your thinking?

Mrs. Bush ran stop sign in fatal crash

AUSTIN, Texas (AP) - Details in a 1963 accident report say that Laura Bush, then 17, ran a stop sign in the Texas crash that killed a friend in another car. The report, adding information to previous reports of the crash, was released to The Associated Press on Wednesday.

Mrs. Bush now is the wife of Republican presidential nominee-to-be George W. Bush, the Texas governor.

''It was a very tragic accident that deeply affected the families and was very painful for all involved, including the community at large,'' said Mrs. Bush's spokesman, Andrew Malcolm. ''To this day, Mrs. Bush remains unable to talk about it.''

She did say in March, when asked at a campaign stop about the crash, ''I know this as an adult, and even more as a parent, it was crushing ... for the family involved and for me as well.''

There had been published accounts of the accident, but city officials had declined to release the records because those involved were under 18. The police report was released Wednesday in response to an open-records request that was submitted to Midland officials in March.

According to the two-page accident report, Laura Welch was driving her Chevrolet sedan on a clear night shortly after 8 p.m. on Nov. 6, 1963, when she drove into an intersection and struck a Corvair sedan driven by 17-year-old Michael Douglas.

Although previous news accounts have reported Douglas was thrown from the car and broke his neck, those details were not in the report.

The speed of Laura Bush's car was illegible on the report. The speed limit for the road was 55.

Laura Bush and her passenger, Judy Dykes, also 17, were taken to a hospital and treated for minor injuries, according to an accident account printed at the time in the Midland Reporter-Telegram.

The police report indicates no charges were filed. That section of the report was left blank.

''As far as we know, no charges were filed,'' said Midland city attorney Keith Stretcher. ''I don't think it's unusual that charges weren't filed.''

 

[Diuretic]

I hate to agree with Dogshit, but I don't see a case for manslaughter here. I do see a case of poor police practice and if my boss told me to step out on the highway to stop cars, the answer would be, "After you."
.............

You're entirely too polite, my response would have a "you" in but it wouldn't have an "after"

 

[Dr Grump]

There were 39,352 fatal accidents in 2005.

http://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/Main/index.aspx

What do you suppose those other 22,367 fatalities were from?

Fair enough, speed could possibly be the reason for the other 22,000 but I think Larkinn is right in that there could be a whole host of other reasons, too.

However, you also have to take into account the percentages. Let's say 16,000 people were killed by drunk drivers and 22,000 people were killed by speeders. I'd say there are a shitload more speeders than drunk drivers. Say there were 1 million people caught drunk driving last year and 16,000 people were killed that involved somebody driving under the influence that's 1 person killed for every 62 drunks. I'd bet any thing you like that at least 20 times the number of people were caught speeding. So 20 million divisible by 22,000 is 909. So you are 15 times more likely to be killed by a drunk driver. I pulled those figures out my arse, but just going from experience, that's my opinion.

And when you have two cops and an ex cop telling you, from the coal face, that they do see a difference, maybe there is. As an aside, most drunk driving fatalities I came across, almost ALL involved speed....second common most cause with drunks was falling asleep at the wheel..

 

[MasterChief]

Just like you never look down the barrel of a loaded gun, you should never step out in front of a speeding car--the results could be the same.

 

[AllieBaba]

Awesome. The new version of the felony murder law is now downgraded to a citation murder law. Amazing idea.

In Oregon the law is such that you receive a $350 ticket if you do not switch lanes when you see a cop on the side of the road with his lights on. If you cannot switch lanes safely, you MUST slow down.

But failing to see the lights/failing to slow down and subsequently hitting an officer on a freeway is not the same as murder. In some cases it isn't even negligent, if you aren't speeding and the road/traffic is such that you could reasonably not see the officer.

 

[Larkinn]

In Oregon the law is such that you receive a $350 ticket if you do not switch lanes when you see a cop on the side of the road with his lights on. If you cannot switch lanes safely, you MUST slow down.

Ontario has that law as well actually. I got pulled over there because of it by a very angry cop who let me go when she saw I had no idea why she was pulling me over.

But failing to see the lights/failing to slow down and subsequently hitting an officer on a freeway is not the same as murder. In some cases it isn't even negligent, if you aren't speeding and the road/traffic is such that you could reasonably not see the officer.

Breaking the law doesn't automatically make it negligent. Especially if the law is such that they feel its unimportant enough that its not even a crime, and you only get cited for it.

 

[Gunny]

Does this story affect your thinking?

Within the context of intentionally violating the law -- meaning if Laura Bush ran the stop sign because she just didn't feel like slowing down, not in the least. I'd still go for a manslaughter charge.

If she ran the sign because she did not know of its existence and/or did not see it, THEN I could see her not being charged.

In the case of the woman in the original article, she was speeding. Intentionally violating the law. Her intentional violation of the law resulted in the death of another human being.

Unless I misunderstand definitions, she could actually be charged with second degree murder, correct? My going for manslaughter in this case IS actually taking into account that the death was not intentional and the officer partly to blame.

The fact is, the jury had a different opinion and she walked after paying her traffic fines. A crushing blow, but I'll live.