Marine & wife killed and tortured by own men?

Shame on you for trying to distort what he said.

He was ABSOLUTELY talking about the way blacks were treated under our constitution. He was talking about them being considered less than a full person. In case you are unaware, and I know you aren't, the founding fathers specifically didn't make slavery illegal because they were afraid they wouldn't get the constitution enacted. That is a sad fact of life in a country that is theoretically founded on "liberty".

There is a difference between thining there are flaws in the constitution and thinking it is "flawed" in the sense that you are implying.

What do YOU think he was talking about?

AH! now that's the correct answer. It was the way blacks were treated by the Constitution because the Constitution did not outlaw slavery! Not because of the punishment of slave holding states by the 3/5ths rule. That is a distortion that is used to confuse people who don't know the Constitution. It makes it sound like black were counted as less than a person for the purpose of institutionalizing their status as such. When it was a penalty to the slave-holding states.

I think that people who know Constitutional history know that it is a document that represented pages and pages of compromises, some large, some small. Is a document flawed if their are compromises in it? If so, every law ever made except those handed down by dictators are flawed. I don't think that's a very tenable position.

The Constitution did as much work on the slave issue as was possible at the time. It banned the importation of slaves at a date certain. It penalized the slave states by reducing their potential representation (a carrot one might say, if they would only let the slaves be free, they could increase their Congressional power. I'm sure few if any slave states ever really considered that). It is true that the Constitution did not settle the matter of slavery in that one document. It took generations and a war to do that. I think it it too much to have asked of a document meant to set forth a form of government to also address a list of social ills. Instead, it provides a framework within which a list of social ills can be addressed.

When slavery was finally resolved, the Constitution provided a framework to pass the 13th, 14th and 15th Amendments and address aspects that could not be addressed in 1787. Is it a flawed document or a document that is fundamentally flawed? I don't see it. Not at all.

If we take the point of view that the document should not have been sign without resolution of the slave issue, it would have meant no Constitution. Would the world have been better off without an American Constitution or is it better off with one. I know what my answer is.
 
Is it a flawed document or a document that is fundamentally flawed? I don't see it. Not at all.

If we take the point of view that the document should not have been sign without resolution of the slave issue, it would have meant no Constitution. Would the world have been better off without an American Constitution or is it better off with one. I know what my answer is.

As a liberal, I agree.
 
If we take the point of view that the document should not have been sign without resolution of the slave issue, it would have meant no Constitution. Would the world have been better off without an American Constitution or is it better off with one. I know what my answer is.

I didn't say that at all. But that was a flaw in its essense. A country built on freedom denied that freedom to so many.

As I said, that flaw was fixed. But it doesn't mean it didn't have flaws. That is why there's a means of amending the constitution.

So, don't distort what I said either. You seem to have this problem with taking a point to its extreme, which isn't what was said
 
I will grant you that that used to be the case. However, witness the little publicized case in Knoxville last winter. A half dozen black guys kidnapped a white college couple. They tortured and raped the guy, then killed him and dumped him by the railroad tracks. They raped her for three days, tortured her including dumping bleach down her throat to try to conceal evidence. Then killed her.

The press? They said little or nothing. Locally, they barely covered the story. Nationally. Fox did a little blurb on it. CNN did nothing. When the local press did cover it, they did not say anything about race initially. Only much later did the press cover (and cover is a strong word) the aspect of the story that included race.

Granted this is a single, though exceptionally heinous, case. But, the point is, if it wasn't covered in an egregious case like this, then it shows that the press is not doing what they used to do.

There wouldn't be much point in my posting the volumes of accounts that totally contradict the almost silly notion that somehow the press is a friend to black people. That's ridiculous to the point of absurdity.

Here's the core of it as I see it .. the right like to blame the press for their every illness .. even though the media isn't owned by liberals or the left .. that's stupid.

The core it is the right is incapable of adapting to an evolving society. That truth is validated every single day I come here. Those on the right frequently reach for the absurd. Honestly, sometimes it's like listening to children .. without the innocence.

Exactly how old would one have to be to even suggest the media likes black people? .. what.. 12?

I can and have lived with the media biased coverage of African-Americans .. but let's talk about the biases of the justice system if care to deal with real injustice.
 
I didn't say that at all. But that was a flaw in its essense. A country built on freedom denied that freedom to so many.

As I said, that flaw was fixed. But it doesn't mean it didn't have flaws. That is why there's a means of amending the constitution.

So, don't distort what I said either. You seem to have this problem with taking a point to its extreme, which isn't what was said

You seem to have a problem with thinking it's all about you. I'm allowed to make a point or two of my own in these posts. Not all of it was directed at you.

My biggest point was that I have a problem with people using shorthand and half-truths in discussing historical, especially foundational historical, information. Most times the people that read this stuff are not history majors or lawyers and they won't look it up. They may, however, repeat what they read.

I think we both did a fine job in making sure all the points were clearly elucidated and as usual, I don't think we ended up too far apart. Our conclusions based on the facts may be different, but I think we agree on the facts.
 
I can and have lived with the media biased coverage of African-Americans .. but let's talk about the biases of the justice system if care to deal with real injustice.

Now there is a real issue.

Has anyone started a thread on the prison industrial complex and the people used as slaves to work for it?
 
There wouldn't be much point in my posting the volumes of accounts that totally contradict the almost silly notion that somehow the press is a friend to black people. That's ridiculous to the point of absurdity.

Here's the core of it as I see it .. the right like to blame the press for their every illness .. even though the media isn't owned by liberals or the left .. that's stupid.

The core it is the right is incapable of adapting to an evolving society. That truth is validated every single day I come here. Those on the right frequently reach for the absurd. Honestly, sometimes it's like listening to children .. without the innocence.

Exactly how old would one have to be to even suggest the media likes black people? .. what.. 12?

I can and have lived with the media biased coverage of African-Americans .. but let's talk about the biases of the justice system if care to deal with real injustice.

I'm sure we'll be dealing with that for the next several years.

As a member of the defense bar, what exactly would you like to tell me about the justice system and how it works? As someone who worked pro bono for Legal Services in Northern Virginia, what is it you can share with me about the justice system?
 
Haven't heard of the New Black Panthers huh?

Probably haven't heard of the Plan De San Diego either.

I not only know of the New Black Panthers but I know several of them, including Dr. Khalid Muhammed who lives here in Georgia.

Their central message is SELF-DEFENSE .. not whole sale murders of white people.

A 92 year old black woman was murdered by police as she sat quietly alone in her own home. They burst threw the door and shot her dead .. then accussed her of selling drugs and, Annie Oakley style, shooting all three police officers as the broke into her home .. ALL proven to be lies.

Some people believe in self-defense.

Name the murders of white people the NBP has been accused of murdering?

I'll go you one better .. name the murders of white people committed by the Nation of Islam .. another favorite target of the uneducated.

Here is their platform, most of which I don't agree with, but some of it I do.
New Black Panther Party for Self Defense

Compare that to the platform of the KKK, skinheads of your choice of lunatics from the smorgasboard of white American hate groups. Everyone of them profess murder and terrorism.

Did anybody think black people were going to kill Bush because he's white?

No, I do not know of the other group you posted which again validates my point .. there are no organized group of black people professing the wholesale murders of white people.
 
There wouldn't be much point in my posting the volumes of accounts that totally contradict the almost silly notion that somehow the press is a friend to black people. That's ridiculous to the point of absurdity.

Here's the core of it as I see it .. the right like to blame the press for their every illness .. even though the media isn't owned by liberals or the left .. that's stupid.

The core it is the right is incapable of adapting to an evolving society. That truth is validated every single day I come here. Those on the right frequently reach for the absurd. Honestly, sometimes it's like listening to children .. without the innocence.

Exactly how old would one have to be to even suggest the media likes black people? .. what.. 12?

I can and have lived with the media biased coverage of African-Americans .. but let's talk about the biases of the justice system if care to deal with real injustice.

You know, there is racism in the world. There is racism in the USA and as long as you are looking for it, you will find it whether it's there or not.

I'm 51. The first time I actually met a black person I was in jr high. She was sitting outside the cafeteria crying. I sat down next to her to find out what was wrong (that's the kind of person I am). I asked her why she was crying and she said "Nobody will talk to me because I'm black". I pointed out that I was talking to her and she said "You're just talking to me because I'm black".

When I was in college I met a really nice black girl outside the cafeteria. We went in together, and sat at the same table and chatted. We were having a grand time until 3 black men came to join us. They spent the rest of our lunch talking about "black power" and doing their best to make me uncomfortable. When I finished my lunch I stood up and told them what I thought of them. I pointed out that if any one of them had sat with me and a bunch of whites and we started talking about "white power" they'd be all over us. I told them they were both racist and rude and they deserved any racism that was directed at them.

One day, while standing in line at the pharmacy a black woman came in and walked straight up to the counter, even though there was a line where everyone was suppose to stand behind for privacy reasons. They told her to go stand in line with everyone else. She came and stood next to me and told me I had no idea what it was like being black in this world. They only treat her like that because she is black. When the people at the counter were finished, she stepped in front of me to take care of her business and I had to wait even longer. I'm sure she never realized that she was stepping in front of me in line, she certainly didn't thank me for letting her go ahead of me. Nope, she was looking for racism and she saw it even when it wasn't there.


Now, at 51, I have a sister that married a black man, he's a jerk. I love their kids but they have nothing to do with the white side of the family. I have another niece who's 1/2 Thai and she married a very nice black man, we have a great relationship. I have a cousin that married a black man and we get along fine. My black brother in law is a jerk, not because he's black, but because he's a jerk. He also cries racism a lot. Here's a man that wouldn't let his daughters date white boys in highschool and he claims we're racist because we think he's a jerk. BTW, my friend Jean, who's black, knows him and she says he's a jerk too.


You're crying about racism, forgetting that without the whites that risked their lives and many of them that gave their lives for the freedom of the slaves, you wouldn't be where you are today. You were sold by your black african ancesters and if the whites hadn't bought you, you'd be living in a world where slavery still exists today.

You forget about the whites that marched with MLK Jr. You forget about the white college students that lost their lives in the 60's trying to help blacks get equal rights.

Yep, as long as you are looking for racism, you will find it. I feel sorry for you.
 
Now there is a real issue.

Has anyone started a thread on the prison industrial complex and the people used as slaves to work for it?

I've posted several my brother and I mention both all the time .. but this isn't an issue Americans are interested in because it's just black people.

Obama know the issue very well from his days in Chicago politics .. but don't expect him to touch it either.
 
You're crying about racism, forgetting that without the whites that risked their lives and many of them that gave their lives for the freedom of the slaves, you wouldn't be where you are today. You were sold by your black african ancesters and if the whites hadn't bought you, you'd be living in a world where slavery still exists today.

You forget about the whites that marched with MLK Jr. You forget about the white college students that lost their lives in the 60's trying to help blacks get equal rights.

Yep, as long as you are looking for racism, you will find it. I feel sorry for you.

That first paragraph is utterly unbelievable. I can't believe someone would claim not to be racist but then post such nonsense.

Black people suffer institutionalized racism. That is fact. You can't learn that by reading it or finding it on a website or hearing someone say it. But its true. Once you are able to see that all of a sudden an epiphany will happen and oppression will give a whole new light to the world which will become a very different place in your eyes.
 
I've posted several my brother and I mention both all the time .. but this isn't an issue Americans are interested in because it's just black people.

Obama know the issue very well from his days in Chicago politics .. but don't expect him to touch it either.

And their convicted by a *cough* court of law which invalidates them as citizens and people. Double whammy: black and criminal.
 
I not only know of the New Black Panthers but I know several of them, including Dr. Khalid Muhammed who lives here in Georgia.

Their central message is SELF-DEFENSE .. not whole sale murders of white people.

A 92 year old black woman was murdered by police as she sat quietly alone in her own home. They burst threw the door and shot her dead .. then accussed her of selling drugs and, Annie Oakley style, shooting all three police officers as the broke into her home .. ALL proven to be lies.

Some people believe in self-defense.

Name the murders of white people the NBP has been accused of murdering?

I'll go you one better .. name the murders of white people committed by the Nation of Islam .. another favorite target of the uneducated.

Here is their platform, most of which I don't agree with, but some of it I do.
New Black Panther Party for Self Defense

Compare that to the platform of the KKK, skinheads of your choice of lunatics from the smorgasboard of white American hate groups. Everyone of them profess murder and terrorism.

Did anybody think black people were going to kill Bush because he's white?

No, I do not know of the other group you posted which again validates my point .. there are no organized group of black people professing the wholesale murders of white people.


Council of Conservative Citizens Blog Archive Black Panther Leader calls for violence against whites.
Black Panther Leader calls for violence against whites.

On whites: “I’m about the total destruction of white people. I’m about the total liberation of black people. I hate white people. I hate my enemy. . . .”

Black Criminals Purposely Target Whites Guy White: Making Sense On Race

Whites commit only 3% of crime against blacks. Blacks commit half of their crime against whites.

That means that a black person is 17 times more likely to commit an interracial crime than a white person.

:: LareDosnews.com :: - Local

The 1915 Plan de San Diego was a modest proposal that Mexicanos, Negroes, American Indians, and Japanese take up arms to seize the territory stolen by the United States from Mexico. To secure this goal, all North American males over the age of 16 were to be exterminated.
 
I'm sure we'll be dealing with that for the next several years.

As a member of the defense bar, what exactly would you like to tell me about the justice system and how it works? As someone who worked pro bono for Legal Services in Northern Virginia, what is it you can share with me about the justice system?

Statistics my brother .. you can start with undeniable statistics that clearly demonstrate the war on drugs is nothing more than a war on black people .. start with the statistic that whites make up as much as 72% of all illegal drug users in the United States. There are some drugs that whites use alsmost exclusively, like meth and designer drugs.

Then gather the statistics from a variety of organizations like the Innocence Project that clearly demonstrate the disparity in arrests and sentencing .. that clearly demonstrate that blacks get prison for the same violations whites get probation for .. that clearly demonstrate this is not due to quality of legal representation rather the the pigmentation of skin.

Then gather the statistics that clearly define America as the greatest prison nation in human history .. that clearly demonstrates that we incarcerate more of our population than all the totalitarian nations we like to point fingers at .. that clearly demonstrate that crime is a business in America and the prison/industrial complex has become the new plantation where prisoners/slaves work for some of the biggest corporations in America for about 25 cents an hour.

Given that you're a lawyer I'm sure you recognize slavery is still legal in America as defined by the 13th Amendment and prison is where its practiced.

Then ask yourself why black youth should have respect for the law when they know the law holds no respect for them?

That's just for starters my brother .. but if you are in a position to address any of this from within the system I appeal to your sense of spirituality and dedication to justice.
 
Last edited:
You know, there is racism in the world. There is racism in the USA and as long as you are looking for it, you will find it whether it's there or not.

I'm 51. The first time I actually met a black person I was in jr high. She was sitting outside the cafeteria crying. I sat down next to her to find out what was wrong (that's the kind of person I am). I asked her why she was crying and she said "Nobody will talk to me because I'm black". I pointed out that I was talking to her and she said "You're just talking to me because I'm black".

When I was in college I met a really nice black girl outside the cafeteria. We went in together, and sat at the same table and chatted. We were having a grand time until 3 black men came to join us. They spent the rest of our lunch talking about "black power" and doing their best to make me uncomfortable. When I finished my lunch I stood up and told them what I thought of them. I pointed out that if any one of them had sat with me and a bunch of whites and we started talking about "white power" they'd be all over us. I told them they were both racist and rude and they deserved any racism that was directed at them.

One day, while standing in line at the pharmacy a black woman came in and walked straight up to the counter, even though there was a line where everyone was suppose to stand behind for privacy reasons. They told her to go stand in line with everyone else. She came and stood next to me and told me I had no idea what it was like being black in this world. They only treat her like that because she is black. When the people at the counter were finished, she stepped in front of me to take care of her business and I had to wait even longer. I'm sure she never realized that she was stepping in front of me in line, she certainly didn't thank me for letting her go ahead of me. Nope, she was looking for racism and she saw it even when it wasn't there.


Now, at 51, I have a sister that married a black man, he's a jerk. I love their kids but they have nothing to do with the white side of the family. I have another niece who's 1/2 Thai and she married a very nice black man, we have a great relationship. I have a cousin that married a black man and we get along fine. My black brother in law is a jerk, not because he's black, but because he's a jerk. He also cries racism a lot. Here's a man that wouldn't let his daughters date white boys in highschool and he claims we're racist because we think he's a jerk. BTW, my friend Jean, who's black, knows him and she says he's a jerk too.


You're crying about racism, forgetting that without the whites that risked their lives and many of them that gave their lives for the freedom of the slaves, you wouldn't be where you are today. You were sold by your black african ancesters and if the whites hadn't bought you, you'd be living in a world where slavery still exists today.

You forget about the whites that marched with MLK Jr. You forget about the white college students that lost their lives in the 60's trying to help blacks get equal rights.

Yep, as long as you are looking for racism, you will find it. I feel sorry for you.

I'm sorry .. I know you were being sincere .. but this is so out of touch with reality that it's obvious that any comment I make won't help you.
 
Council of Conservative Citizens Blog Archive Black Panther Leader calls for violence against whites.
Black Panther Leader calls for violence against whites.

On whites: “I’m about the total destruction of white people. I’m about the total liberation of black people. I hate white people. I hate my enemy. . . .”

Black Criminals Purposely Target Whites Guy White: Making Sense On Race

Whites commit only 3% of crime against blacks. Blacks commit half of their crime against whites.

That means that a black person is 17 times more likely to commit an interracial crime than a white person.

:: LareDosnews.com :: - Local

The 1915 Plan de San Diego was a modest proposal that Mexicanos, Negroes, American Indians, and Japanese take up arms to seize the territory stolen by the United States from Mexico. To secure this goal, all North American males over the age of 16 were to be exterminated.

To quote a conseravative white hate group is hardly credible.

Council of Conservative Citizens -- Extremism in America

Council of Conservative Citizens - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

From their policy page:
Council of Conservative Citizens Statement of Principles

From their title:
"Advocating against minorities and racial integration"
 
Council of Conservative Citizens Blog Archive Black Panther Leader calls for violence against whites.
Black Panther Leader calls for violence against whites.

On whites: “I’m about the total destruction of white people. I’m about the total liberation of black people. I hate white people. I hate my enemy. . . .”

Black Criminals Purposely Target Whites Guy White: Making Sense On Race

Whites commit only 3% of crime against blacks. Blacks commit half of their crime against whites.

That means that a black person is 17 times more likely to commit an interracial crime than a white person.

:: LareDosnews.com :: - Local

The 1915 Plan de San Diego was a modest proposal that Mexicanos, Negroes, American Indians, and Japanese take up arms to seize the territory stolen by the United States from Mexico. To secure this goal, all North American males over the age of 16 were to be exterminated.

To quote a conservative white hate group is hardly credible.

Council of Conservative Citizens -- Extremism in America

Council of Conservative Citizens - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

From their policy page:
Council of Conservative Citizens Statement of Principles

From their title:
"Advocating against minorities and racial integration"
 
Council of Conservative Citizens Blog Archive Black Panther Leader calls for violence against whites.
Black Panther Leader calls for violence against whites.

On whites: “I’m about the total destruction of white people. I’m about the total liberation of black people. I hate white people. I hate my enemy. . . .”

Black Criminals Purposely Target Whites Guy White: Making Sense On Race

Whites commit only 3% of crime against blacks. Blacks commit half of their crime against whites.

That means that a black person is 17 times more likely to commit an interracial crime than a white person.

:: LareDosnews.com :: - Local

The 1915 Plan de San Diego was a modest proposal that Mexicanos, Negroes, American Indians, and Japanese take up arms to seize the territory stolen by the United States from Mexico. To secure this goal, all North American males over the age of 16 were to be exterminated.

You must have missed this part .. POST THE MURDERS OF WHITE PEOPLE THAT THE NEW BLACK PANTHER PARTY OR THE NATION OF ISLAM HAVE BEEN ACCUSED OF COMMMITTING

AND if you have to go back to 1915 to drudge up an obscure group to vaidate your point .. you must be totally unware how utterly absurd that is. Should we start from 1915 to talk about hate groups .. are you sure you want to go there?

I don't because it's completely unnecessary because it's a foolish argument.
 
Let us be realistic. Many Black men are just tired of seeing White men marrying our Women.Good looking women to at that. Now, as a previous poster noted, if this was a Black man murdered by some KuKluxKlan posse of White men in the deep south, they would all say "That ******, and his ****** loving white bitch got what they deserved".
But being that this is a White male , married to a Black female,we hear comments like
"What kind of savage demons,would kill a White man and his Black wife, how outrageous".
Until we remove White male and White female racism, and the double standard that America continues to perpetuate, we will have these kinds of incidents.
 

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