Manger scenes for US Governors

[manifold]

Under the U.S. Supreme Court: Governors get mangers under the Christmas tree - UPI.com


A few interesting bits...

WASHINGTON, Nov. 28 (UPI) -- The nation's 50 governors got an unexpected Christmas present this month -- Nativity scenes for each of them, sent by the Catholic League in New York, for display in each state capitol building.

...

Oh, and by the way, Donohue told the governors -- the league's monthly journal Catalyst had published the names of each of their chiefs of staff, so league members could contact them if the creche did not appear in the rotunda as requested.


...

As for the 50 governors who received the creche, "I've been encouraged by the response I've gotten," Donohue said. The best response has come from the Midwest, the West and the South. The worst from the Northeast.


...

He's still scratching his head over the outcome of a case originated by the Catholic League in New York City several years ago.

The case, Skoros vs. New York City, started off with letters from Donohue to the city Department of Education over its policy on holiday displays. "That policy allows the menorah to be displayed as a symbol of the Jewish holiday of Chanukah (Hanukkah) and the star and crescent to be displayed as a symbol of the Islamic holiday of Ramadan, but it does not allow a creche or Nativity scene to be displayed as a symbol of the Christian holiday of Christmas."

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A federal judge ruled for the city, saying the menorah and crescent and star were secular symbols and a federal appeals court affirmed. WTF!

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After taking several looks, the U.S. Supreme Court declined to review the case.

 

[Ravi]

Creepy:

Oh, and by the way, Donohue told the governors -- the league's monthly journal Catalyst had published the names of each of their chiefs of staff, so league members could contact them if the creche did not appear in the rotunda as requested.

 

[manifold]

Why do you hate people getting involved in politics Ravi?

 

[Ravi]

btw, the article is a little *ahem* misleading as the menorah, crescent and Christmas trees are allowed to be displayed. A nativity scene is actually more religious and apparently that is why it was disallowed.

Docket No.?04-1229-CV. - SKOROS v. CITY OF NEW YORK - US 2nd Circuit

 

[Wry Catcher]

Organized religions create more harm and hate then any organized criminal organization in history (and that includes the Nazi's).

 

[manifold]

btw, the article is a little *ahem* misleading as the menorah, crescent and Christmas trees are allowed to be displayed. A nativity scene is actually more religious and apparently that is why it was disallowed.

Docket No.?04-1229-CV. - SKOROS v. CITY OF NEW YORK - US 2nd Circuit

Are you claiming that UPI is biased?

Regardless, a nativity scene sure as shit is NOT any more religious than a menorah or crescent & star.

 

[California Girl]

Organized religions create more harm and hate then any organized criminal organization in history (and that includes the Nazi's).

Man creates hate, not ideas or beliefs.

 

[Ravi]

btw, the article is a little *ahem* misleading as the menorah, crescent and Christmas trees are allowed to be displayed. A nativity scene is actually more religious and apparently that is why it was disallowed.

Docket No.?04-1229-CV. - SKOROS v. CITY OF NEW YORK - US 2nd Circuit

Are you claiming that UPI is biased?

Regardless, a nativity scene sure as shit is NOT any more religious than a menorah or crescent & star.

Yes, they are extremely biased...the Moonie Times?

And yes, a scene depicting a God is more religious than a generic symbol such as a tree, menorah, or crescent.

 

[WillowTree]

Organized religions create more harm and hate then any organized criminal organization in history (and that includes the Nazi's).

It sure stirs the hatred in atheists I'll hand you that. They just fucking hate Christians and Christmas. Yep.

 

[manifold]

I have to disagree with you Ravi.

Especially when the menorah is displayed specifically to honor a Jewish holiday and the crescent is displayed specifically to honor a Muslim holiday.

I still believe that Christians who whine about the war on Christmas blow it out of proportion, but this decision is complete and TOTAL BULLSHIT.

 

[bodecea]

Creepy:

Oh, and by the way, Donohue told the governors -- the league's monthly journal Catalyst had published the names of each of their chiefs of staff, so league members could contact them if the creche did not appear in the rotunda as requested.

This is how they roll....

 

[bodecea]

Organized religions create more harm and hate then any organized criminal organization in history (and that includes the Nazi's).

It sure stirs the hatred in atheists I'll hand you that. They just fucking hate Christians and Christmas. Yep.

Reflect much?


And to show that I am winning this argument with you:

 

[Ravi]

I have to disagree with you Ravi.

Especially when the menorah is displayed specifically to honor a Jewish holiday and the crescent is displayed specifically to honor a Muslim holiday.

I still believe that Christians who whine about the war on Christmas blow it out of proportion, but this decision is complete and TOTAL BULLSHIT.

And a Christmas tree is displayed to honor a Christian holiday.

Disallowed: Images of God, Jesus and Mo.

Makes perfect sense, IMO.

 

[manifold]

There is absolutely NOTHING secular about a menorah or a crescent & star.

Nothing at all.

 

[manifold]

I have to disagree with you Ravi.

Especially when the menorah is displayed specifically to honor a Jewish holiday and the crescent is displayed specifically to honor a Muslim holiday.

I still believe that Christians who whine about the war on Christmas blow it out of proportion, but this decision is complete and TOTAL BULLSHIT.

And a Christmas tree is displayed to honor a Christian holiday.

Disallowed: Images of God, Jesus and Mo.

Makes perfect sense, IMO.

That's just your confirmation bias talking.

 

[manifold]

A Christmas tree is more pagan than Christian Ravi, despite it's name.

I'm surprised you didn't already know that.

 

[WillowTree]

Organized religions create more harm and hate then any organized criminal organization in history (and that includes the Nazi's).

It sure stirs the hatred in atheists I'll hand you that. They just fucking hate Christians and Christmas. Yep.

Reflect much?


And to show that I am winning this argument with you:

I'm not arguing with you so how are you winning?

 

[Ravi]

A Christmas tree is more pagan than Christian Ravi, despite it's name.

I'm surprised you didn't already know that.

It doesn't matter. It is currently used to celebrate Christmas.

And a menorah is used in a similar way to celebrate a Jewish holiday.

Not sure what religious significance the star and crescent have, exactly.

But they are all basically secularish representations of religions and a nativity scene simply doesn't fit that definition.

 

[manifold]

A Christmas tree is more pagan than Christian Ravi, despite it's name.

I'm surprised you didn't already know that.

It doesn't matter. It is currently used to celebrate Christmas.

And a menorah is used in a similar way to celebrate a Jewish holiday.

Not sure what religious significance the star and crescent have, exactly.

But they are all basically secularish representations of religions and a nativity scene simply doesn't fit that definition.

Again, that's your confirmation bias talking.

In mal's thread you seemed to agree with me that a nativity scene doesn't really serve any secular purpose, but here you seem to believe that a menorah does.

Care to explain exactly what secular purposes those might be?

PS: the phrase "secularish representations of religions" is oxymoronic poppycock.

 

[L.K.Eder]

There is absolutely NOTHING secular about a menorah or a crescent & star.

Nothing at all.

from skoros vs. city of new york:

In a subsequent letter dated December 14, 2001, Donohue challenged the DOE's characterization of the menorah and the star and crescent as secular symbols and asked for a clarification as to DOE policy regarding nativity scenes:  “Are they secular or religious, and can they be displayed in the schools?”   Donohue Letter to Levy, Dec. 14, 2001, at 1. The Chancellor's general counsel replied that “[t]he Supreme Court has recognized both the Menorah and Christmas tree as secular symbols of the holiday season.   On the other hand, the Supreme Court has found that a nativity scene is not a secular symbol and, therefore, it is unconstitutional to display it on public property.”   Vignola Letter to Donohue, Dec. 20, 2001, at 1.

and:

The district court concluded that Skoros's Establishment Clause challenge failed because the DOE holiday display policy, on its face, satisfied the three-part test established in Lemon v. Kurtzman, 403 U.S. 602, 612-13 (1971) (requiring challenged action to (1) have a valid secular purpose, (2) have a primary effect that neither advances nor inhibits religion, and (3) avoid excessive state entanglement with religion).
The district court found that the stated purpose of the policy was secular:  “ ‘to foster mutual understanding and respect for the many beliefs and customs stemming from our community's religious, racial, ethnic and cultural heritage.’ ”