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How do you know for sure that silent prayer is the ONLY thing going on? And what about before and after prayers when the students co-mingle? There appears to be ample opportunity for "subversive meetings". What if some self-declared teenager imam with terrorist tendencies began prayer time with his special thoughts? Hello Columbine?
Just because it SAYS what is going on does not mean that is what is ACTUALLY going on.
Are you actually asking him to prove the negative. Even though you have no evidence that anything but prayer is going on, you are actually implying that he can't make his case unless he proves to you that nothing other than prayer is going on. Do you expect him to make a trip to San Diego and report back to you?
You are fucking unbelievable.
)Why shouldn't he prove the negative to support his argument? I can prove "the positive"...that terrorism breeds within Muslim prayer groups.
Even moderate Muslims recognize it as fact. Here's their very own guidelines to fight terrorism...within their very own groups.
http://www.mpac.org/ngcft/mosque-guidelines/
Not so fucking unbelievable anymore, is it? (sorry if that was too harsh
Facts are facts. Why not face them.Well, it is nice that you attempt to prove the positive. You should expect no more of anyone else, as proving the negative is a silly standard to uphold in any kind of discussion. [What??? You can't prove to me that the Baltimore Ravens are terrorists? Then I should assume that they are!]
Glad you agree. I will agree that every church is not a breeding ground for terrorism.ReillyT said:Is there some connection between terrorism, on the one hand, and certain Muslim spriritual centers, on the other? Of course. That is why we refer to them as religious fanatics. However, just because because some nutcases attend a Christian church in Georgia, and then conspire to blow an abortion clinic, that doesn't mean that every (or christianity) church is a breeding ground for terrorism.
Tell me why.ReillyT said:I find it particularly interesting that you referred to the Muslim Affairs Council site on fighting terrorism to support your case. Hmmm... think about that.
Really? Or am I just straining your liberal beliefs?ReillyT said:You are fucking unbelievable.
Facts are facts. Why not face them.
Glad you agree. I will agree that every church is not a breeding ground for terrorism.
Tell me why.
Really? Or am I just straining your liberal beliefs?
Why shouldn't he prove the negative to support his argument?
So any argument that cannot "prove the negative" means that that argument is correct?I don't know what facts you are referring to. I was merely suggesting that asking someone to prove the negative is silly. See Baltimore Ravens example.
OK then. Since I gave the "positive proof", then how about he prove ME wrong?ReillyT said:See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_proof regarding logical fallacies.
That may be true, but the odds of terrorism are certainly much higher with a Muslim group than a Christian group. Have you ever read anything about what a lot of muslim kiddies are taught?ReillyT said:Good. I am sure that you also agree that not every Mosque or every group of Muslim grade school kids praying is a terrorist network.
Jihad Kids -- Islamic Seeds of Hate and Martyrdom
Almost from birth, Muslim children are taught to hate Christians and Jews - to glorify "jihad" (holy war) and to embrace violence, death and child martyrdom.
In their schools and mosques, young Muslim's are taught songs about wanting to become "suicide warriors" and taking up guns and bombs to kill non-believers. Such indoctrination is an essential part of Islamic prescribed destiny which is to destroy all non-Muslims (infidels) and thereby achieve their Quranic vision of one world under Islam.
Muslims have been in this unceasing struggle since the time of Muhammad.
During the last decade, Islamic expansionist have further perfected the exploitation of children and teenagers indoctrinated with messages of hatred and incitement against Christians and Jews to perpetrate terrorist attacks and engage in terrorist-supportive activities such as demonstrations and clashes with authority.
Let there be no doubt about it, World War III is underway and Islamic expansionist have no problem sacrificing their young for the cause.
http://www.usvetdsp.com/dec06/jihad_kids.htm
Is this more of your liberal doublespeak? The Muslim link proves that even Muslims are aware of terrorism breeding within their own ranks.ReillyT said:Because you are suggesting that every Muslim group (even grade school kids) represents a potential danger that we should be wary of. To do this, you cite to a Muslim website about fighting terrorism. Hmmmm.... think about it some more.
Nothing better to say?ReillyT said:No. It is much simpler than that. I think you are stupid, or a bigot. Probably both.
How do you know for sure that silent prayer is the ONLY thing going on? And what about before and after prayers when the students co-mingle? There appears to be ample opportunity for "subversive meetings". What if some self-declared teenager imam with terrorist tendencies began prayer time with his special thoughts? Hello Columbine?
Just because it SAYS what is going on does not mean that is what is ACTUALLY going on.
It is also not required for Muslims to pray in a public school. Let their parents come get them to pray elsewhere at their required times. If that's too hard to do, then let the parents enroll them in a madrassa, not a public school. If Muslims can get special time and places for prayer, then I don't see why the majority of public schools can't provide special times and places for Christian prayer.
Talk about a softball statement. Tell me, when exactly is the lawsuit forthcoming? The tenth of never?
They state: "The ACLU takes seriously both the free exercise of religion and the need to prevent governments and public schools from promoting particular religious beliefs and practices." I guess to the ACLU when a school provides time and places for groups of Muslims to pray they are not promoting religion but when a school provides elective (meaning you can choose to attend or not) courses on Christianity they are promoting religion. Go figure.
There is no plaintiff because Christians are by and large tolerant....unlike certain groups.
Why shouldn't he prove the negative to support his argument? I can prove "the positive"...that terrorism breeds within Muslim prayer groups.
Even moderate Muslims recognize it as fact. Here's their very own guidelines to fight terrorism...within their very own groups.
http://www.mpac.org/ngcft/mosque-guidelines/
So any argument that cannot "prove the negative" means that that argument is correct?
Umm no. It merely says that not "proving a negative" does not mean the argument is incorrect.
OK then. Since I gave the "positive proof", then how about he prove ME wrong?
And what exactly did you provide proof of again?
That may be true, but the odds of terrorism are certainly much higher with a Muslim group than a Christian group. Have you ever read anything about what a lot of muslim kiddies are taught?
Provide evidence that "Muslim kiddies" in the US are taught that.
Is this more of your liberal doublespeak? The Muslim link proves that even Muslims are aware of terrorism breeding within their own ranks.
Yes, hence a reason to believe that there is a difference between moderate muslims and extremist muslims.
So any argument that cannot "prove the negative" means that that argument is correct?
OK then. Since I gave the "positive proof", then how about he prove ME wrong?
That may be true, but the odds of terrorism are certainly much higher with a Muslim group than a Christian group.
Is this more of your liberal doublespeak? The Muslim link proves that even Muslims are aware of terrorism breeding within their own ranks.
Nothing better to say?
It's not bigoted when there is proof that other things than just simple prayer go on within Muslim prayer groups.Larkinn said:Lmao. I don't know "for sure" that silent prayer is the only thing going on. But I have no reason to think that anything else is going on. Nor do you. Oh wait, except that they are Muslim. Which to my eyes is a very is very bigotted.
Any evidence that there is anything different going on? No? Then you are just spouting nonsense.
Since when does a religion's "requirements" provide justification for it to be practiced in government settings when other religions cannot? And just because one's religion "requires" something, why should that mean it gets to disrupt the lives others? Shouldn't religion be done on one's own time and in a private setting? Seems to me that is what the ACLU keeps telling us Christians.Larkinn said:Because one is required by their religion, and one is not. Freedom of religion also means that people are generally not required to do things that go against their religion.
Ah yes, the "nuance". More like the two-faced two-step. They, unlike me, are obviously anti-Christian and pro-Muslim.Larkinn said:Its a nuanced statement. They, unlike you, don't disagree with something merely because it is Islamic.
Again, the idiotic and unconstitutional ACLU rationale for supporting Muslim prayer but not Christian prayer in schools.Larkinn said:Again, the difference between required religious practice and non-required religious practice.
And those facts are?Larkinn said:Or maybe because they know facts about the situation that you, in your ignorance, do not.
Yes, sad to say, radical Islam does actually exist within some Muslim prayer groups. I know you PC sensitive libs are totally blown away by that concept.Larkinn said:Wow...just wow.
No, that doesn't disprove anything. It just shows that some Muslims have brought their religion into the 21st century.Larkinn said:Wait, you mean moderate Muslims are against terrorism? Wait...that disproves your central belief that where there are Muslims there is terrorism now doesn't it?
But you still can't disprove my argument that radical Islam does occur in Muslim prayer groups.Larkinn said:Umm no. It merely says that not "proving a negative" does not mean the argument is incorrect.
I gave you a link to a Muslim-made list of how they attempt to prevent radical Islam from occuring within Muslim mosques. If that is not proof positive of my claim that radical Islam exists within Muslim prayer groups, I don't know what is. (but there's more proof)Larkinn said:And what exactly did you provide proof of again?
Do you think that all Muslims who immigrate to the U.S. suddenly drop their deeply-held Muslim beliefs? Or that all muslims adhere to moderate beliefs? In London, Saudi schools use textbooks at London's King Fahad Academy that teach children that Jews are monkeys and Christians are pigs. A teacher at the school said pupils had been heard saying they wanted to kill Americans, that 9/11 was good, and that Osama bin Laden was a hero.Larkinn said:Provide evidence that "Muslim kiddies" in the US are taught that.
Scholars of Islam find it difficult to precisely assess the impact of 40 years of Saudi missionary work on the United States' multi-ethnic Muslim community -- estimated at 6 million to 7 million. But survey data are suggestive.
The most comprehensive study, a survey of the 1,200 U.S. mosques undertaken in 2000 by four Muslim organizations, found that 2 million Muslims were "associated" with a mosque and that 70 percent of mosque leaders were generally favorable toward fundamentalist teachings, while 21 percent followed the stricter Wahhabi practices. The survey also found that the segregation of women for prayers was spreading, from half of the mosques in 1994 to two-thirds six years later.
John L. Esposito, a religion scholar at Georgetown University, said the Saudi theological efforts have resulted in "the export of a very exclusive brand of Islam into the Muslim community in the United States" that "tends to make them more isolationist in the society in which they live."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A13266-2004Aug18?language=printer
Yes, so what? The point is that the radicals do exist and why would we want any infiltrating into our schools via unsupervised muslim prayer groups?Larkinn said:Yes, hence a reason to believe that there is a difference between moderate muslims and extremist muslims.
ReillyT said:You just don't get it do you. You can't be asked to prove the negative. He can't be asked to prove the negative. Asking to prove the negative is silly way to argue. Try to keep this in your head. It will come in very useful someday.
What you provided was evidence, although that evidence consisted of the existence of a link between some Muslim groups and terrorism. That happens to be very, very, very weak evidence because a) its draws conclusions from a small quantity of instances and applies that conclusion to a large quantity of people, and b) it is not incident specific - it has nothing to do with Carver Elementary.
What Larkin provided was evidence that the only thing going on was prayer (as opposed to fanatical indoctrination). Why is his evidence better? Because a) it is based on the printed sources that are the basis of the information we have about the case (the news article), and b) was specific to Carver Elementary.
You see how this works. Logic is fun.
Uh, did you know that we are at WAR with radical Islam? This is called simple defense on the home front. Why beg for trouble in our schools?ReillyT said:Perhaps, although if you choose to draw conclusions about the millions of Muslims in the US based upon a group here and person there, you are engaging in mass generalizations about a religious group based on your knowledge about a few them. This is either bigotry, or sheer stupidity. I leave it to you to figure out which.
Your liberal feelings are of no concern to me and certainly don't hold water against my logical and factual arguments.ReillyT said:See Larkin's response. It pretty well conveys my feelings.
Do you have something better to say? If so, which facts are you referring to?ReillyT said:As you said earlier. Facts are facts.
It's not bigoted when there is proof that other things than just simple prayer go on within Muslim prayer groups.
If we have a problem with mosques breeding terrorism (and obviously we do) why would we allow anything even remotely related to that within our schools? This is something new and untested. Are you not concerned with the safety of our children?
Since when does a religion's "requirements" provide justification for it to be practiced in government settings when other religions cannot? And just because one's religion "requires" something, why should that mean it gets to disrupt the lives others? Shouldn't religion be done on one's own time and in a private setting? Seems to me that is what the ACLU keeps telling us Christians.
Ah yes, the "nuance". More like the two-faced two-step. They, unlike me, are obviously anti-Christian and pro-Muslim.
Again, the idiotic and unconstitutional ACLU rationale for supporting Muslim prayer but not Christian prayer in schools.
And those facts are?
Yes, sad to say, radical Islam does actually exist within some Muslim prayer groups. I know you PC sensitive libs are totally blown away by that concept.
No, that doesn't disprove anything. It just shows that some Muslims have brought their religion into the 21st century.
But you still can't disprove my argument that radical Islam does occur in Muslim prayer groups.
I gave you a link to a Muslim-made list of how they attempt to prevent radical Islam from occuring within Muslim mosques. If that is not proof positive of my claim that radical Islam exists within Muslim prayer groups, I don't know what is. (but there's more proof)
Do you think that all Muslims who immigrate to the U.S. suddenly drop their deeply-held Muslim beliefs? Or that all muslims adhere to moderate beliefs? In London, Saudi schools use textbooks at London's King Fahad Academy that teach children that Jews are monkeys and Christians are pigs. A teacher at the school said pupils had been heard saying they wanted to kill Americans, that 9/11 was good, and that Osama bin Laden was a hero.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,2006532,00.html
There have been many Saudi-backed wahabbist missionaries who teach their fundamental version of the Koran in the U.S. Wahabbism is an especially virulent form of Islam that advocates jihad.
Yes, so what? The point is that the radicals do exist and why would we want any infiltrating into our schools via unsupervised muslim prayer groups?
Hmm, who is being persecuted in the world, if you said muslims, please dont procreate, and if you said christians, and jews. you are correct.
radical christianity is not a threat to the u.s. or the world, a few fred phelps will be around of course, but for every fred phelps there are 130 million muslims who want to kill us. Nice try buddy.
We need to monitor mosques not churches.
Christians are not a global threat, Muslims are.
Islam is a cancer, that was never peaceful, and the only moderates are those who dont practice islams violent jihad practices.
You just can't let go of your little logic argument about "proving the negative" can you? This is so typical of a liberal who wins some dinky little point in an argument. You think you have won this argument because it is not logical to "prove the negative". So what if I agreed with you on that point about not "proving the negative". Big deal. You still have not yet satisfactorily refuted my proof positive that radical Islam exists within Muslim prayer groups. I don't think that it is "very, very, very weak evidence" because it is obvious that moderate Muslims consider it enough of a problem that they are taking steps to prevent it.
Larkinn's claim that ONLY prayer is taking place in Carver school is not substantiated. Carver does not state that there are any school officials sitting in on the Muslim prayer meetings who can verify that as fact. Of course a school can't force a non-Muslim teacher to be exposed to religious practices which they don't believe in. What a catch 22. Perhaps a Muslim teacher sits in on the prayer sessions but who is to say that he would necessarily expose any radical Islam that surfaced?
Yes, logic can be fun. Common sense also works.
Uh, did you know that we are at WAR with radical Islam? This is called simple defense on the home front. Why beg for trouble in our schools?
Your liberal feelings are of no concern to me and certainly don't hold water against my logical and factual arguments.
Jihad In Schools?
INVESTOR'S BUSINESS DAILY
7/9/2007
Political Correctness: Seems the ACLU couldn't care less that a San Diego public school has set aside 15 minutes of classroom instruction time for Muslim students to pray, while non-Muslims twiddle their thumbs.
Right now it has no plans to legally challenge the budding madrassa as endorsement of a religion by government. Apparently the establishment clause only applies to the practice of Judeo-Christian rituals in public places.
The special accommodations for Carver Elementary's nearly 100 Somali Muslims don't stop with organized prayer. The school cafeteria has banned pork and other foods that conflict with the Islamic diet.
And the K-8 school has even added Arabic — the language of the Quran — to its curriculum, while segregating classes for girls, a la the Taliban.
In effect, Carver administrators have carved out a school within a school expressly for Muslims, elevating them above Christian and Jewish students. They've had 15 minutes of instruction time taken away from them, so Muslims can roll out their pray mats.
It amounts to a special privilege afforded a specific religion, which plainly does not have our best interests at heart. That same privilege is not extended to other faiths that are part of our traditional culture — and do not wish us ill or pray for the demise of our system of government.
Tough, say Muslim-rights groups. The Council on American-Islamic Relations, which is defending the Carver program, insists public schools must cater to the growing number of Muslim students. "Our country is transforming demographically, religiously," said the spokesman for CAIR's San Diego chapter. "Our country has to now accommodate things that are not traditionally accounted for before."
snip
There's a stealth jihad under way in our schools, and school officials, wittingly or not, are aiding it. The ACLU, which operates from a double standard, refuses to step in. That leaves it up to parents to stand up and insist that the purpose of our tax-supported public schools is to educate our children in English as Americans.
snip
http://www.investors.com/editorial/editorialcontent.asp?secid=1501&status=article&id=268874251390676
ACLU Supports Right of Iowa Students to Distribute Christian Literature at School
DES MOINES--The Iowa Civil Liberties Union today announced that it is publicly supporting the Christian students who recently filed a lawsuit against the Davenport Schools asserting the right to distribute religious literature during non-instructional time.
"The school's policy against the distribution of religious literature outside of class is clearly wrong," said Ben Stone, Executive Director of the ICLU. "Not only does the policy violate the students' right to freely exercise their religious beliefs, but it also infringes on their free speech rights," he said.
.
"The First Amendment says the government can't restrict the right of people to practice their personal religious beliefs, while at the same time it forbids the government from endorsing religious beliefs, especially in a school setting," said Stone.
http://www.aclu.org/studentsrights/religion/12811prs20020711.html
RHODE ISLAND ACLU FILES APPEAL ON BEHALF OF INMATE BARRED FROM PREACHING AT CHRISTIAN SERVICES
The Rhode Island ACLU has filed an appeal in federal court on behalf of an ACI inmate who has been barred from preaching during Christian religious services at the state prison. The plaintiff, Wesley Spratt, had been preaching at ACI services for seven years before he was unilaterally stopped from doing so based on vague and generalized “security” concerns. The appeal, filed by ACLU volunteer attorney Carly Beauvais Iafrate, argues that the preaching ban violates a federal law designed to protect the religious freedom of institutionalized persons.
Spratt, who considers his preaching a “calling” from God, had been preaching at religious services on a weekly basis under the supervision, and with the support, of clergy at the ACI. The DOC provided no evidence of security problems during, or as the result of, his supervised preaching during the seven years he had been doing so. Nonetheless, when a new warden took over the maximum security facility in 2003, Spratt was ordered to stop preaching.....snip
ACLU attorney Iafrate said today: “RLUIPA is an important federal law that was designed to protect the religious freedom of people like Wesley Spratt. That law is undermined if courts give uncritical deference to prison officials in denying inmates the right to practice their religion.”
http://www.riaclu.org/20060111.html
After ACLU Intervention on Behalf of Christian Valedictorian, Michigan High School Agrees to Stop Censoring Religious Yearbook Entries
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
DETROIT - The American Civil Liberties Union of Michigan today announced an out-of-court settlement between the Utica Community School District and a local student over the censorship of her 2001 yearbook entry. The student's entry had been deleted from the yearbook because it contained a passage from the Bible.
"While it is true that the Constitution forbids public schools to promote religion, schools must be careful not to suppress the private religious expression of students," said ACLU of Michigan Legal Director Michael J. Steinberg, who represented the student. "In this case, a high school purported to create an open forum for student expression, yet censored a student's speech because it was religious in nature.
http://www.aclu.org/studentsrights/expression/12845prs20040511.html
