Lt. Col. Allen West

[AtlantaWalter]

If I were in his unit and found out who snitched on him, they's find his body in the desert tomorrow morning!!!

 

[NightTrain]

Perhaps I should reiterate here that I personally think the Lt. Col. did the correct thing.

My point was that the top brass will make an example out of him so that everyone in the future adheres rigidly to the rules regarding interrogations - the last thing the military and this administration needs are true stories being circulated about clear violations of the Geneva Conventions.

This story should have never seen the light of day, especially since the prisoner was unharmed. War is an ugly thing and our fighting forces sometimes are put into desperate situations that call for desperate measures.

I know what you mean, Jim. It really is galling that we do our best to fight honorably & conduct ourselves by the rules while the enemy breaks every rule in the book.

I'm exhausted. Off to bed.

 

[SLClemens]

How would we feel if an Iraqi interrogator had discharged a pistol beside the head of an American POW to get information about American activities, and had thus saved Iraqi lives? Sooner or later Iraqi guerrillas are going to capture some US soldiers, and I wonder how US treatment of Iraqis is going to affect how they're treated?

I also can't help but wonder how accurate the story is that the info he got was life-saving.

 

[eric]

How would we feel if an Iraqi interrogator had discharged a pistol beside the head of an American POW to get information about American activities

Are you kidding me? You know damn well what these animals would do regardless of the way they are treated, this has been proven over and over.

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by SLClemens
How would we feel if an Iraqi interrogator had discharged a pistol beside the head of an American POW to get information about American activities, and had thus saved Iraqi lives? Sooner or later Iraqi guerrillas are going to capture some US soldiers, and I wonder how US treatment of Iraqis is going to affect how they're treated?

I also can't help but wonder how accurate the story is that the info he got was life-saving.

"Would we feel"? They've already done worse, or did you forget the footage released at the beginning of the war?

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/Primetime/iraq_POWs030323.html

"Seventeen Americans held captive by Iraq during the Gulf War say in a federal court lawsuit filed against Iraq that they were subjected to beatings, starvation, freezing, electric shock, cigarette burns, mock executions and threatened with castration while being interrogated."
http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2003/030403-interrogation01.htm

 

[SLClemens]

I've read Andy McNab's Bravo Two Zero (an amazing book, btw) and have a pretty good idea how Saddam's men opperated. But the next time, if Americans are captured by Iraqi insurgents, it might be a different bunch. What about if and/or when the Shias in the South start revolting en masse? Would you like them to think that threatening to kill someone is an acceptable interrogation technique? What about when the US tries to solicit co-operation of the Iranian government to try to restrict assistance of Iranian groups to Iraqi resistence? Might US treatment of Iraqi civilians have an effect on how they co-operate, or what excuses they use not to? What if, perhaps, there's a role for the Iranian or Syrian governnet to play if some US servicemen go missing? Might this story and others like it have an effect on how they act?

 

[SLClemens]

Originally posted by jimnyc
"Would we feel"? They've already done worse, or did you forget the footage released at the beginning of the war?

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/Primetime/iraq_POWs030323.html

"Seventeen Americans held captive by Iraq during the Gulf War say in a federal court lawsuit filed against Iraq that they were subjected to beatings, starvation, freezing, electric shock, cigarette burns, mock executions and threatened with castration while being interrogated."
http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2003/030403-interrogation01.htm

Thanks for the links, though I'm already quite familiar with these stories. I'm also now more familiar with the true story of Jessica Lynch. If the medical staff who saved her life had seen a US officer blowing off a pistol beside an Iraqi's head I wonder if they would have been so inclined to save her life, even donating their own blood and risking their lives. (hey - Private Jessica now has Iraqi blood in her - how cool!).

 

[dijetlo]

>> You know damn well what these animals would do regardless of the way they are treated<<
Eric, the question is not what Husseins men or the Jihadists would do in this situation. If we are only aspiring to their level, I have good news, we can go home right now and they can run that country. We are in Iraq (at this point) and if this isn’t going to be remembered as a simple grab for oil we need to deliver a better system of government than they had. Shooting at prisoners is not the direction we need to be heading.

 

[lilcountriegal]

I've signed. Thought maybe 'some' of you would like to sign this as well.

Petition for Leniency for Col. West

 

[SLClemens]

Originally posted by lilcountriegal
I've signed. Thought maybe 'some' of you would like to sign this as well.

Petition for Leniency for Col. West

Well wouldn't it be reassuring for Iraqis to find out how "millions of Americans" feel about the rule of law?

 

[5stringJeff]

I still don't see how, legally, LTC West did anything wrong. Maybe it was a little edgy, but 1) it worked, and 2) the Iraqi EPW was unharmed, although I'm sure they had to issue him a new set of underwear.

 

[SLClemens]

Originally posted by gop_jeff
I still don't see how, legally, LTC West did anything wrong. Maybe it was a little edgy, but 1) it worked, and 2) the Iraqi EPW was unharmed, although I'm sure they had to issue him a new set of underwear.

How would you feel if an Iraqi interogator discharged a pistol beside an American POW to try to get information on US military movements? Should his countrymen applaud him for his deed, or refuse to endorse such tactics?

 

[eric]

How would you feel if an Iraqi interogator discharged a pistol beside an American POW to try to get information on US military movements?

Well lets see, I know how I felt when I saw our POW's during this conflict and during Desert Storm. Believe me you do not want to know how I felt, I am certainly not the humanitarian you seem to be.

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by SLClemens
How would you feel if an Iraqi interogator discharged a pistol beside an American POW to try to get information on US military movements? Should his countrymen applaud him for his deed, or refuse to endorse such tactics?

Hmmmm..... Probably better than what they did to previous POW's.

A little fear factor is always better than assault, maiming & death.

 

[SLClemens]

Originally posted by jimnyc
Hmmmm..... Probably better than what they did to previous POW's.

A little fear factor is always better than assault, maiming & death.

I think I'd rather be slapped around a bit than have someone point a gun at me, threaten me with death, and then blow it off beside my head, though I'd prefer the latter to being maimed or killed. None of them are remotely civilized options, and indicate the extent to which a war such as this one forces us to lower ourselves much more towards our enemy's level.

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by SLClemens
I think I'd rather be slapped around a bit than have someone point a gun at me, threaten me with death, and then blow it off beside my head, though I'd prefer the latter to being maimed or killed. None of them are remotely civilized options, and indicate the extent to which a war such as this one forces us to lower ourselves much more towards our enemy's level.

You're correct as usual. We should have taken the higher ground and allowed soldiers to die.

This was an exception rather than a rule. Under the conditions currently in Iraq I think the US should be commended for not laying out a full catastrophic assault. They are doing the best they can in fighting insurgents while at the same time trying to rebuild the country.

 

[5stringJeff]

Originally posted by SLClemens
I think I'd rather be slapped around a bit than have someone point a gun at me, threaten me with death, and then blow it off beside my head, though I'd prefer the latter to being maimed or killed. None of them are remotely civilized options, and indicate the extent to which a war such as this one forces us to lower ourselves much more towards our enemy's level.

Clemens,

American POWs have been treated much worse than this. Our treatment of POWs is famously lenient and fair, which is one of the reasons that LTC West's actions were so successful.
It is never easy to deal with EPWs. It is never easy to interrogate one either. But I still believe that LTC West did not break any laws.

 

[dijetlo]

gop_jeff
It is never easy to deal with EPWs. It is never easy to interrogate one either. But I still believe that LTC West did not break any laws.

You know, I don't agree with what the man did, but then again I don't have to walk in his boots either. I'm not responsible for those lives (his command). I find myself agreeing with a lot of your arguments Jeff, but what are we to do? Is this a policy you want the army to institute? What will we do when Pfc. Problemchild cuts somebody in half 'cause his weapon was set on "rock and roll" instead of 'semi'? I'll tell you one thing, at that point we better roll the hell out of Iraq, 'cause you aint winnin' no hearts and minds with that strategy.

 

[5stringJeff]

I think the DoD policy that we treat EPWs according to the Geneva conventions still applies, and as long as we continue to do so, I think that we are on solid ground. And as far as I know, LTC West did so. If I am wrong, I would certainly like to know where in the conventions it outlaws his behavior.

What will we do when Pfc. Problemchild cuts somebody in half 'cause his weapon was set on "rock and roll" instead of 'semi'?

I understand your concern; however, I think this is a different issue, one which I'm confident would be handled in military channels.

 

[SLClemens]

Discharging a gun beside someone's head constitutes a death threat and is most certainly against the geneva convention.

Now think for a moment why we signed that convention: mutual self-interest. Yes, we can get very important information by applying dirty tactics to the enemy but then he can do the same to us. Why not both sides decide that they'll dispense with such uncivilized behavior? Or should the Geneva Convention be applied only when we know the other side will comply? If we do, no one will be the first side to comply.

I found it especially interesting when all the networks were complaining about American POWs being shown on Iraqi TV as a GC breach. We had been doing the same up to that point. Suddenly, when it was in our self-interest, we ordered the networks not to film prisoner's faces.