Losing the fiscal argument on healthcare, GOP tries to discredit the referees

[Soggy in NOLA]

Wow, you asshats didn't get the tongue in cheek reference at all. Humorless bores.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

If you want a good idea of what America is.. read The American Ideal of 1776 -The Twelve Basic American Principles

You progressives won't like it. But you'll understand the fight.

 

[Mr. Shaman]

The CBO is anything but reliable. They simply make calculations based on the assumptions and information given. The Dems figured out how to game the system by inputting unrealistic assumptions. The GOP is being rude enough to call them on this.

Obamacare is a fiscal nightmare. How could it be otherwise? The American people understand this, with a majority believing it will add to the deficit, a correct belief btw.

Yeah.....the Health Care insurer's record-profit$ are reeeaaallly adding to the deficit.

"So the next time you hear an insurance industry flack or apologist complain about those "measly" profit margins, don't buy it. Their "reframing" is nothing more than an attempt to take your mind off the tragedies these companies cause for so many Americans every single day."

Reframing The Debate​

 

[Seawytch]

So what?...Y'alll didn't give a shit about the polls then, why should anyone care now?

Which polls? The ones that said that the Health Care reform should go much further than it did? Or perhaps the polls that showed a majority of Americans wanting a public option? Those polls?

 

[WillowTree]

So what?...Y'alll didn't give a shit about the polls then, why should anyone care now?

Which polls? The ones that said that the Health Care reform should go much further than it did? Or perhaps the polls that showed a majority of Americans wanting a public option? Those polls?

show us what you got!

 

[The Rabbi]

Losing the fiscal argument on health care, Republicans try to discredit the referees

Friday, January 21, 2011
It's the age of civility in American politics, but there's one institution that's been civil all along: the Congressional Budget Office (sorry, but sometimes civility is boring). The nonpartisan agency, which calculates the official cost of legislation for Congress, speaks in the polite language of actuarial tables, refuses to reliably please or disappoint either party and is the closest thing American politics has to an umpire. And the Republicans are getting sick and tired of it.
<more>

Well now we've seen the lie that this post is. Even the CBO has come out and said that with the changes that have been enacted Obamacare is going to be very costly. So much for losing the fiscal argument. Republicans were absolutely right, Democrats absolutely wrong if not simply lying on this issue.

 

[Seawytch]

So what?...Y'alll didn't give a shit about the polls then, why should anyone care now?

Which polls? The ones that said that the Health Care reform should go much further than it did? Or perhaps the polls that showed a majority of Americans wanting a public option? Those polls?

show us what you got!

Most in U.S. want public health option: poll | Reuters

Without Public Option, Enthusiasm for Health Care Reform, Especially Among Democrats, Collapses - Rasmussen Reports™

Health Care Poll: Support For A Public Option At An All Time High

Poll: Most Back Public Health Care Option - CBS News

Most support public option for health insurance, poll finds - washingtonpost.com

Polling Numbers for Health Care, Public Option Polls - Polls

Poll Finds Most Doctors Support Public Option : NPR

CBS Poll: For Many, Health Care Reform Does Not Go Far Enough | FDL Action

Poll: Many voters think healthcare reform didn't go far enough - The Hill's Blog Briefing Room

Repeal? Most Americans think health reform did not go far enough, poll finds | The Raw Story

How Polls Divided Americans on Obama

 

[Oddball]

Which polls? The ones that said that the Health Care reform should go much further than it did? Or perhaps the polls that showed a majority of Americans wanting a public option? Those polls?

show us what you got!

Most in U.S. want public health option: poll | Reuters

Without Public Option, Enthusiasm for Health Care Reform, Especially Among Democrats, Collapses - Rasmussen Reports™

Health Care Poll: Support For A Public Option At An All Time High

Poll: Most Back Public Health Care Option - CBS News

Most support public option for health insurance, poll finds - washingtonpost.com

Polling Numbers for Health Care, Public Option Polls - Polls

Poll Finds Most Doctors Support Public Option : NPR

CBS Poll: For Many, Health Care Reform Does Not Go Far Enough | FDL Action

Poll: Many voters think healthcare reform didn't go far enough - The Hill's Blog Briefing Room

Repeal? Most Americans think health reform did not go far enough, poll finds | The Raw Story

How Polls Divided Americans on Obama

Just about everybody wants everything, especially if they can be conned into beliving that everyone else is going to pay for it.

Try catching up on your Bastiat. The Law, by Frederic Bastiat

 

[johnrocks]

Weird how some thinks that people are too stupid to handle their own healthcare decisions,too stupid to pick their own Doctors and too ignorant to make other choices but thinks those same dumbasses are smart enough to vote in politicians who have all the answers,won't be bought off by special interests or do things to concentrate more power for them and their allies.

 

[Political Junky]

Weird how some thinks that people are too stupid to handle their own healthcare decisions,too stupid to pick their own Doctors and too ignorant to make other choices but thinks those same dumbasses are smart enough to vote in politicians who have all the answers,won't be bought off by special interests or do things to concentrate more power for them and their allies.

"Obamacare" does not choose your doctor for you. You can keep your doctor.
Unfortunately, those against it have lied about that, as well as made up tales of death panels.

 

[johnrocks]

Weird how some thinks that people are too stupid to handle their own healthcare decisions,too stupid to pick their own Doctors and too ignorant to make other choices but thinks those same dumbasses are smart enough to vote in politicians who have all the answers,won't be bought off by special interests or do things to concentrate more power for them and their allies.

"Obamacare" does not choose your doctor for you. You can keep your doctor.
Unfortunately, those against it have lied about that, as well as made up tales of death panels.

Discussing in generalities;not specifics; just seems that many have more faith in politicians whose jobs are dependent upon campaign contributions from special interest groups and bureaucrats than they are the free market system which we have not had in health-care in at least a couple of generations.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

I don't know if Obamacare is the whole answer or even the right answer. But what we should be able to agree on is that the HC system is BROKEN and only getting worse. People who got sick or injured were going bankrupt because they couldn't afford the HC premiums. And when the hospitals couldn't collect on the bills they would simply pass the costs onto the rest of us.

Forcing people to buy HC coverage and subsidizing premiums for the lower income only promotes social responsibility. No longer will it be acceptable to expect everyone else to pay for your decision to not buy HC. That's why I agreed with forcing people to buy auto insurance.

I say give Obamacare a chance to work and solve the problems as they occur.

Forcing people to pay for something for someone else promotes responsibility? BTW... nobody's forced to buy auto insurance.

You should rethink your position, it's pretty dumb.

 

[DaGoose]

show us what you got!

Most in U.S. want public health option: poll | Reuters

Without Public Option, Enthusiasm for Health Care Reform, Especially Among Democrats, Collapses - Rasmussen Reports™

Health Care Poll: Support For A Public Option At An All Time High

Poll: Most Back Public Health Care Option - CBS News

Most support public option for health insurance, poll finds - washingtonpost.com

Polling Numbers for Health Care, Public Option Polls - Polls

Poll Finds Most Doctors Support Public Option : NPR

CBS Poll: For Many, Health Care Reform Does Not Go Far Enough | FDL Action

Poll: Many voters think healthcare reform didn't go far enough - The Hill's Blog Briefing Room

Repeal? Most Americans think health reform did not go far enough, poll finds | The Raw Story

How Polls Divided Americans on Obama

Just about everybody wants everything, especially if they can be conned into beliving that everyone else is going to pay for it.

Try catching up on your Bastiat. The Law, by Frederic Bastiat

The important thing is that he showed that the vast majority want Obamacare. And the fact that the GOP is hell bent on repealing it shows how out of touch they really are.

.

 

[code1211]

I love the word "Obamacare"; Obama cares. I suppose some Republicans care but the leadership's care seems to be focused on the Republican Party's future, not my future, your future or our kid's futures.
Blaming Obama for the rise in the cost of medical care and getting people to believe it is masterful. If only the Republican leadership were honest the problems might be more easily defined (pointing fingers is easy, defining problems not so much) and compromise might lead to win-win solutons. As it stands we are watching a zero sum game played out by the Republican leadership which assures losers.

Right...When your crammed-down-the-throat policy goes over like a turd in the punch bowl, it's best to get your name dissociated from it post haste.

being able to talk about it for a year does not equal rammed down your throat

In this case, it does.

 

[The Rabbi]

The CBO is anything but reliable. They simply make calculations based on the assumptions and information given. The Dems figured out how to game the system by inputting unrealistic assumptions. The GOP is being rude enough to call them on this.
Obamacare is a fiscal nightmare. How could it be otherwise? The American people understand this, with a majority believing it will add to the deficit, a correct belief btw.

yeah the article covers your post as well:

You can play whack-a-mole with this stuff all day. But beneath it is something more insidious: an effort to discredit the last truly neutral, truly respected scorekeeper in Washington. The facts don't support the particular case the Republicans want to make, so they're trying to take down the people who supply the facts. But once that's done, it can't easily be undone. And the true loser will be the very thing Republicans claim to care most about: the deficit.

Your cite has nothing to do with my point.
New CBO health care estimate: Oops, we goofed -- Obamacare actually costs $1 trillion - National post-partisan | Examiner.com
The CBO revised the estimate after Obamacare passed.
The GOP was right. The Dems were lying and using the rules the CBO must use to game the system in their favor. This is now obvious to anyone who is not an outright partisan hack/liar.

 

[The Rabbi]

I love the word "Obamacare"; Obama cares. I suppose some Republicans care but the leadership's care seems to be focused on the Republican Party's future, not my future, your future or our kid's futures.
Blaming Obama for the rise in the cost of medical care and getting people to believe it is masterful. If only the Republican leadership were honest the problems might be more easily defined (pointing fingers is easy, defining problems not so much) and compromise might lead to win-win solutons. As it stands we are watching a zero sum game played out by the Republican leadership which assures losers.

Right...When your crammed-down-the-throat policy goes over like a turd in the punch bowl, it's best to get your name dissociated from it post haste.

being able to talk about it for a year does not equal rammed down your throat

True.
Cramming it down our throats equals cramming it down our throats. And that is just what happened. From the Cornhusker bribe to the Louisiana Purchase this legislation was lied, cajoled, and forced on the American people. It is the most unpopular legislation ever passed, and only grows in unpopularity.

 

[FA_Q2]

I don't know if Obamacare is the whole answer or even the right answer. But what we should be able to agree on is that the HC system is BROKEN and only getting worse. People who got sick or injured were going bankrupt because they couldn't afford the HC premiums. And when the hospitals couldn't collect on the bills they would simply pass the costs onto the rest of us.

Forcing people to buy HC coverage and subsidizing premiums for the lower income only promotes social responsibility. No longer will it be acceptable to expect everyone else to pay for your decision to not buy HC. That's why I agreed with forcing people to buy auto insurance.

I say give Obamacare a chance to work and solve the problems as they occur.

There is a problem with that though. For one, the problems are already occurring as many businesses and insurers are preparing for the complete bill to be enacted and healthcare rates skyrocket at even faster rates than before. The other is that, once fully enacted, it is VERY difficult to undo parts of the bill. It is very difficult to roll back a process once it has begun and this will be no different.

I have been saying this for a long time here but I will repeat it again; this legislation NEEDED to be done piece mentally through many bills at a controlled pace. That would have prevented 90 percent of the problems we are having today not to mention the scope of changes would have been understandable and the people would have known what is actually happening. Washington does not want that though, you can't hide special interest payoffs, unrelated pork spending and agendas in simple, concise bills. That is the real reason they created such a massive concoction.

 

[FA_Q2]

Poll: Voters Want Congress to Focus on Jobs Before Health Care


A CBS News/New York Times survey out Thursday found 43 percent of Americans believe the most important thing for the new Congress to deal with is job creation -- compared to just 18 percent who say the top priority should be health care.

I fail to see your point here. Are you saying that because people want jobs as the top priority that healthcare suddenly should be off the table? Is that only because you have got the bill you wanted passed or because you think that congress can only pass one bill a month? Maybe there is some law that I do not know about that prevents congress from doing more than one thing in a given time period???

 

[FA_Q2]

I don't know...

I think Obamacare is a rigged and gigged mess that will certainly be a catastophe if it's enacted.

WE agree on that.



And on that, too.




Those ideas, while possibly being sound will ALSO fail.





No argument from me on that, either.



The whole idea that the problem is merely one of funding is flawed.



Not a clue what the above means.




Well its a drop dead certainty that we won't reduce prices by throwning more money at HC, isn't it?


Is that a thought that is just too obvious to be understood in Washington?



I totally agree.




I've posted my objections to the current reforms many time on this board.

Don't try to build a pyramid; just pitch a tent for the guy who needs it for a night's sleep. Then use that tent tomorrow for the next guy and so on.

Don't know what the above means, either.

What I can tell you is that we cannot fix the HC problem by putting more people on government HC or by doing nothing, either.

We do not have a demand side problem.

Demand will expand to suck up every cent we throw into HC

We do have a supply side problem.

HC providers are making too god damned much money and there's not enough of them.

That's a SUPPLY SIDE problem.

Look, the whole theory of pricing depends on a theory that does NOT apply in HC.

The theory of man as a RATIONAL CONSUMER.

That's a preposterous assumption to begin with and an ESPECIALLY preposterous assumption when it comes to HC.

Absolutely correct! We are trying to operate a supply & demand business with a socialist funding scheme. The result is that everybody wants and gets the top level (and priced) care and does not even check the cost.

I and others on this board have conjectured that if this was the way cars were purchased we would all be driving some model from Rolls Royce.

Insurance companies are now adding cost components to their policies that force the policy holders to check the costs. The "Donut Hole" from Medicare is being built into employer provided plans so the employee suddenly foots all of the cost between a minimum threshold and the next threshhold.

The reason? To bring the market into play. In my plan, there used to be a co-pay from dollar one to a certain point at which 100% took over to a top end limit. Now there is a 100% cover to a threshold at which point I foot 100% to the next level and then there is an 80% co pay to the same limit where 100% coverage kicks in again.

There is now an incentive for me to stay under the first threshold and I am trying to do so.

The premiums stayed the same year to year. If I don't use much, I get a better return. If I use it all, it's the same. If I exceed the first threshold and get far enough into the Donut Hole, it cost me more.

In my case, it's working to accomplish the intended goal.

This approach will bend the cost of care down because every covered individual will find a way to decrease his own costs.

Good point and one of the MAJOR problems with healthcare in general. I have posted SEVERAL times about the problem we have with a disconnect between the consumer and the cost but I have not seen ONE liberal here actually address this glaring problem. As long as the end consumer has no concept of the cost of goods he will NEVER regulate its purchase.