Lincoln and the Moral Imagination.

[Scamp]

Newspapers...Lincoln shut down hundreds of Northern newspapers for speaking out against him. Can you imagine that, trashing the First Amendment. And this guy is looked at as a hero?

 

[Picaro]

"But what am I to do in the meantime with those men at Montgomery [meaning the Confederate constitutional convention]? Am I to let them go on... [a]nd open Charleston, etc., as ports of entry, with their ten-percent tariff. What, then, would become of my tariff?" ~ Lincoln to Colonel John B. Baldwin, deputized by the Virginian Commissioners to determine whether Lincoln would use force, April 4, 1861.

"Union means so many millions a year lost to the South; secession means the loss of the same millions to the North. The love of money is the root of this as of many other evils....The quarrel between the North and South is, as it stands, solely a fiscal quarrel".... Charles ****ens in a London periodical in December 1861

"The contest is really for empire on the side of the North and for independence on that of the South....". ..... London Times of 7 Nov 1861

"Slavery is not the cause of the rebellion ....Slavery is the pretext on which the leaders of the rebellion rely, 'to fire the Southern Heart' and through which the greatest degree of unanimity can be produced....Mr. Calhoun, after finding that the South could not be brought into sufficient unanimity by a clamor about the tariff, selected slavery as the better subject for agitation"..... North American Review (Boston October 1862)

"They [the South] know that it is their import trade that draws from the people's pockets sixty or seventy millions of dollars per annum, in the shape of duties, to be expended mainly in the North, and in the protection and encouragement of Northern interests....These are the reasons why these people [the North] do not wish the South to secede from the Union." ..... New Orleans Daily Crescent 21 January 1861

"In one single blow our foreign commerce must be reduced to less than one-half what it now is. Our coastwise trade would pass into other hands. One-half of our shipping would lie idle at our wharves. We should lose our trade with the South, with all of its immense profits. Our manufactories would be in utter ruins. Let the South adopt the free-trade system, or that of a tariff for revenue, and these results would likely follow." .... Chicago Daily Times December 1860

"At once shut down every Southern port, destroy its commerce and bring utter ruin on the Confederate States." ..... NY Times 22 March 1861

"the mask has been thrown off and it is apparent that the people of the principal seceding states are now for commercial independence. They dream that the centres of traffic can be changed from Northern to Southern ports....by a revenue system verging on free trade...." .... Boston Transcript 18 March 1861

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"You and I both anticipated that the cause of the country would be advanced by making the attempt to provision Fort Sumter, even if it should fail ; and it is no small consolation now to feel that our anticipation is justified by the result. "
Abraham Lincoln, in a letter to Gustavus Fox, May 1, 1861

"The affair at Fort Sumter, it seems to us, has been planned as a means by which the war feeling at the North should be intensified, and the administration thus receive popular support for its policy.... If the armament which lay outside the harbor, while the fort was being battered to pieces [the US ship The Harriet Lane, and seven other reinforcement ships], had been designed for the relief of Major Anderson, it certainly would have made a show of fulfilling its mission. But it seems plain to us that no such design was had. The administration, virtually, to use a homely illustration, stood at Sumter like a boy with a chip on his shoulder, daring his antagonist to knock it off. The Carolinians have knocked off the chip. War is inaugurated, and the design of the administration accomplished." ~ The Buffalo Daily Courier, April 16, 1861.

"We have no doubt, and all the circumstances prove, that it was a cunningly devised scheme, contrived with all due attention to scenic display and intended to arouse, and, if possible, exasperate the northern people against the South.... We venture to say a more gigantic conspiracy against the principles of human liberty and freedom has never been concocted. Who but a fiend could have thought of sacrificing the gallant Major Anderson and his little band in order to carry out a political game? Yet there he was compelled to stand for thirty-six hours amid a torrent of fire and shell, while the fleet sent to assist him, coolly looked at his flag of distress and moved not to his assistance! Why did they not? Perhaps the archives in Washington will yet tell the tale of this strange proceeding.... Pause then, and consider before you endorse these mad men who are now, under pretense of preserving the Union, doing the very thing that must forever divide it." ~ The New York Evening Day-Book, April 17, 1861

Suspension of habeus corpus under certain circumstances is a power granted Congress by Article 1, Section 9 of the Constitution. Congress was not in session at the time, and Lincoln’s use of the power was illegal as well.

 

[Scamp]

Lincoln's blockading of Southern ports was an act of war. And his calling up of 75,000 soldiers to invade the Confederacy inaugurated Civil War. Only Congress can do these things. What a Tyrant Lincoln was.

 

[MPS777]

Without secession there would have been no civil war. So did slavery influence secession? How about tariffs? Let’s consult the historical record...

South Carolina declaration of secession:
Declaration of Causes of Secession
Mentions of slavery = 19, mentions of tariffs = 0

Georgia declaration of secession:
Declaration of Causes of Secession
Mentions of slavery = 35, mentions of tariffs = 0

Mississippi declaration of secession:
Declaration of Causes of Secession
Mentions of slavery = 7, mentions of tariffs = 0

Texas declaration of secession:
Declaration of Causes of Secession
Mentions of slavery = 17, mentions of tariffs = 0

Governor of Florida message to the Florida Secession Convention:
Florida Declaration
Mentions of slavery = 14, mentions of tariffs = 0

Alabama declaration of secession:
Alabama Ordinance of Secession - CivilWarWiki
Mentions of slavery = 9, mentions of tariffs = 1

Virginia declaration of secession:
The Declaration of Causes of Seceding States | Civil War Trust
Mentions of slavery = 1, mentions of tariffs = 0

Governor of Arkansas message to the Arkansas Secession Convention:
Why Did Arkansas Secede?
Mentions of slavery = 12, mentions of tariffs = 0

Louisiana secession commissioner message:
Why Did Louisiana Secede?
Mentions of slavery = 12, mentions of tariffs = 0

Governor of Tennessee message calling for secession:
https://americancivilwar.com/documents/isham_harris.html
Mentions of slavery = 57, mentions of tariffs = 0

 

[Picaro]

Without secession there would have been no civil war. So did slavery influence secession? How about tariffs? Let’s consult the historical record...

South Carolina declaration of secession:
Declaration of Causes of Secession
Mentions of slavery = 19, mentions of tariffs = 0

Georgia declaration of secession:
Declaration of Causes of Secession
Mentions of slavery = 35, mentions of tariffs = 0

Mississippi declaration of secession:
Declaration of Causes of Secession
Mentions of slavery = 7, mentions of tariffs = 0

Texas declaration of secession:
Declaration of Causes of Secession
Mentions of slavery = 17, mentions of tariffs = 0

Governor of Florida message to the Florida Secession Convention:
Florida Declaration
Mentions of slavery = 14, mentions of tariffs = 0

Alabama declaration of secession:
Alabama Ordinance of Secession - CivilWarWiki
Mentions of slavery = 9, mentions of tariffs = 1

Virginia declaration of secession:
The Declaration of Causes of Seceding States | Civil War Trust
Mentions of slavery = 1, mentions of tariffs = 0

Governor of Arkansas message to the Arkansas Secession Convention:
Why Did Arkansas Secede?
Mentions of slavery = 12, mentions of tariffs = 0

Louisiana secession commissioner message:
Why Did Louisiana Secede?
Mentions of slavery = 12, mentions of tariffs = 0

Governor of Tennessee message calling for secession:
https://americancivilwar.com/documents/isham_harris.html
Mentions of slavery = 57, mentions of tariffs = 0

Yes, we know it wasn't much of an issue, and Lincoln almost lost much of his base in the 1862 elections because too many people in the midwest and north thought he was too dedicated to freeing slaves, and then allowing them to migrate north and drive down wages there. As for you weak attempts at deflecting from just irrelevant slavery was, the issue was already addressed in my last post. All the Lincoln peddlers have left is merely playing "I Touched You Last!!', as always, until everybody gets bored and quits answering. What politicians say in public has little or nothing to do with real issues, any more than Jefferson's anti-slavery screeds represented his existential reality, or the Soviet Union's Constitution being almost an exact replica of our own, or the serial rapist Democratic President Bill Clinton's claim of not having sex with that girl. .

 

[Scamp]

Without secession there would have been no civil war. So did slavery influence secession? How about tariffs? Let’s consult the historical record...

South Carolina declaration of secession:
Declaration of Causes of Secession
Mentions of slavery = 19, mentions of tariffs = 0

Georgia declaration of secession:
Declaration of Causes of Secession
Mentions of slavery = 35, mentions of tariffs = 0

Mississippi declaration of secession:
Declaration of Causes of Secession
Mentions of slavery = 7, mentions of tariffs = 0

Texas declaration of secession:
Declaration of Causes of Secession
Mentions of slavery = 17, mentions of tariffs = 0

Governor of Florida message to the Florida Secession Convention:
Florida Declaration
Mentions of slavery = 14, mentions of tariffs = 0

Alabama declaration of secession:
Alabama Ordinance of Secession - CivilWarWiki
Mentions of slavery = 9, mentions of tariffs = 1

Virginia declaration of secession:
The Declaration of Causes of Seceding States | Civil War Trust
Mentions of slavery = 1, mentions of tariffs = 0

Governor of Arkansas message to the Arkansas Secession Convention:
Why Did Arkansas Secede?
Mentions of slavery = 12, mentions of tariffs = 0

Louisiana secession commissioner message:
Why Did Louisiana Secede?
Mentions of slavery = 12, mentions of tariffs = 0

Governor of Tennessee message calling for secession:
https://americancivilwar.com/documents/isham_harris.html
Mentions of slavery = 57, mentions of tariffs = 0

Slavery was legal and the USA already had slavery for about 85 years by 1860. By this time the South had turned it into a Billion dollar per year industry with the crops of cotton and tobacco. But the North could not grow these crops because of climate. You think they would have given up a legal billion dollar enterprise? LOL.

 

[Picaro]

Without secession there would have been no civil war. So did slavery influence secession? How about tariffs? Let’s consult the historical record...

South Carolina declaration of secession:
Declaration of Causes of Secession
Mentions of slavery = 19, mentions of tariffs = 0

Georgia declaration of secession:
Declaration of Causes of Secession
Mentions of slavery = 35, mentions of tariffs = 0

Mississippi declaration of secession:
Declaration of Causes of Secession
Mentions of slavery = 7, mentions of tariffs = 0

Texas declaration of secession:
Declaration of Causes of Secession
Mentions of slavery = 17, mentions of tariffs = 0

Governor of Florida message to the Florida Secession Convention:
Florida Declaration
Mentions of slavery = 14, mentions of tariffs = 0

Alabama declaration of secession:
Alabama Ordinance of Secession - CivilWarWiki
Mentions of slavery = 9, mentions of tariffs = 1

Virginia declaration of secession:
The Declaration of Causes of Seceding States | Civil War Trust
Mentions of slavery = 1, mentions of tariffs = 0

Governor of Arkansas message to the Arkansas Secession Convention:
Why Did Arkansas Secede?
Mentions of slavery = 12, mentions of tariffs = 0

Louisiana secession commissioner message:
Why Did Louisiana Secede?
Mentions of slavery = 12, mentions of tariffs = 0

Governor of Tennessee message calling for secession:
https://americancivilwar.com/documents/isham_harris.html
Mentions of slavery = 57, mentions of tariffs = 0

Slavery was legal and the USA already had slavery for about 85 years by 1860. By this time the South had turned it into a Billion dollar per year industry with the crops of cotton and tobacco. But the North could not grow these crops because of climate. You think they would have given up a legal billion dollar enterprise? LOL.

Lincoln's 'reconstruction plan' was to keep them on the plantations, while claiming they were 'free'; according to Lincoln, if he paid them a wage, he thought $3 a month was plenty, they were free. Slavery was so important they passed all kinds of pork bills, tariff bills, homestead bills, etc. for 3 years before they ever got around to 'freeing the slaves', and even then they only freed them in the seceded states, not the slave states in the Union. Illinois and the other Midwestern states still kept their Black Codes, which made it impossible for blacks to immigrate to them, much less able to make a legal living there, laws which Lincoln himself helped make even tougher in the 1850's.

But never mind facts, it's about weirdos trying to claim they 'freed' somebody or other, and taking credit for it as if they had something to do with it. Of course, given what pathetic fashion victims and parrots they are in these times, it's highly unlikely they would have done squat if they had been around back then, so I fail to be impressed with their sniveling and phony posturing. Why not snivel about those nasty Hittites, or the Mongols?

 

[Picaro]

Without secession there would have been no civil war. So did slavery influence secession? How about tariffs? Let’s consult the historical record...

South Carolina declaration of secession:
Declaration of Causes of Secession
Mentions of slavery = 19, mentions of tariffs = 0

Georgia declaration of secession:
Declaration of Causes of Secession
Mentions of slavery = 35, mentions of tariffs = 0

Mississippi declaration of secession:
Declaration of Causes of Secession
Mentions of slavery = 7, mentions of tariffs = 0

Texas declaration of secession:
Declaration of Causes of Secession
Mentions of slavery = 17, mentions of tariffs = 0

Governor of Florida message to the Florida Secession Convention:
Florida Declaration
Mentions of slavery = 14, mentions of tariffs = 0

Alabama declaration of secession:
Alabama Ordinance of Secession - CivilWarWiki
Mentions of slavery = 9, mentions of tariffs = 1

Virginia declaration of secession:
The Declaration of Causes of Seceding States | Civil War Trust
Mentions of slavery = 1, mentions of tariffs = 0

Governor of Arkansas message to the Arkansas Secession Convention:
Why Did Arkansas Secede?
Mentions of slavery = 12, mentions of tariffs = 0

Louisiana secession commissioner message:
Why Did Louisiana Secede?
Mentions of slavery = 12, mentions of tariffs = 0

Governor of Tennessee message calling for secession:
https://americancivilwar.com/documents/isham_harris.html
Mentions of slavery = 57, mentions of tariffs = 0

Slavery was legal and the USA already had slavery for about 85 years by 1860. By this time the South had turned it into a Billion dollar per year industry with the crops of cotton and tobacco. But the North could not grow these crops because of climate. You think they would have given up a legal billion dollar enterprise? LOL.

That, and we have Lincoln's own words, whining about how low the southern tariffs were going to be compared to his extortionate thievery. I'll add they cared so much about the plight of black people in the South that while they were forcing the 'freed 'blacks into 'property camps' to starve and die by the hundreds of thousands rather than sending them north as 'free people', they were exporting millions of bushels of food to Europe and elsewhere the entire war, and had an extensive railroad system and river and coastal network that could have easily transported and dispersed them within days in many states, no need for 'property camps' at all, but we know why Lincoln didn't bother.

 

[Scamp]

When Lincoln started the war, it was OK for the Union states of Maryland, Delaware, Kentucky, Missouri, and New Jersey to keep slavery. As long as they remained loyal to the Union. During the war, Lincoln illegally made West Virginia a new State. And they could keep slavery too.
So like, was the war about slavery?

 

[MPS777]

When Lincoln started the war, it was OK for the Union states of Maryland, Delaware, Kentucky, Missouri, and New Jersey to keep slavery. As long as they remained loyal to the Union. During the war, Lincoln illegally made West Virginia a new State. And they could keep slavery too.
So like, was the war about slavery?

Yep, slavery was one of the major root causes of the war. Desire to preserve the union was another cause. The Union fought largely to prevent secession. The Confederacy seceded largely to preserve slavery. The historical record attests to both these facts. It’s not a coincidence of history that the 13th amendment to the US Constitution, which outlawed slavery in all states, passed in 1865; and the war was also coming to an end in 1865. These two events are correlated because slavery was a major issue in the war.

 

[Scamp]

When Lincoln started the war, it was OK for the Union states of Maryland, Delaware, Kentucky, Missouri, and New Jersey to keep slavery. As long as they remained loyal to the Union. During the war, Lincoln illegally made West Virginia a new State. And they could keep slavery too.
So like, was the war about slavery?

Yep, slavery was one of the major root causes of the war. Desire to preserve the union was another cause. The Union fought largely to prevent secession. The Confederacy seceded largely to preserve slavery. The historical record attests to both these facts. It’s not a coincidence of history that the 13th amendment to the US Constitution, which outlawed slavery in all states, passed in 1865; and the war was also coming to an end in 1865. These two events are correlated because slavery was a major issue in the war.

 

[Scamp]

When Lincoln started the war, it was OK for the Union states of Maryland, Delaware, Kentucky, Missouri, and New Jersey to keep slavery. As long as they remained loyal to the Union. During the war, Lincoln illegally made West Virginia a new State. And they could keep slavery too.
So like, was the war about slavery?

Yep, slavery was one of the major root causes of the war. Desire to preserve the union was another cause. The Union fought largely to prevent secession. The Confederacy seceded largely to preserve slavery. The historical record attests to both these facts. It’s not a coincidence of history that the 13th amendment to the US Constitution, which outlawed slavery in all states, passed in 1865; and the war was also coming to an end in 1865. These two events are correlated because slavery was a major issue in the war.

At first Lincoln said the war was to preserve the Union. Then after well over a hundred thousand Union soldiers were dead, he needed something more compelling to keep suckering people to fight. So he changed the reason for his war. Now it was to free the slaves.

 

[Scamp]

The Confederacy seceded because nothing in the Constitution prevented that. Of course they wanted to continue the billion dollar enterprise that was legal. The Confederate soldier fought because his land and homes were invaded by an army sent by a Tyrant.

What's more honorable, defending your homeland from a foreign invasion, or invading your neighbor because some Tyrant sent you?

 

[regent]

The Confederacy seceded because nothing in the Constitution prevented that. Of course they wanted to continue the billion dollar enterprise that was legal. The Confederate soldier fought because his land and homes were invaded by an army sent by a Tyrant.

What's more honorable, defending your homeland from a foreign invasion, or invading your neighbor because some Tyrant sent you?

I think the honorable thing is for some people to be able, by law, to own other people.

 

[Scamp]

The Confederacy seceded because nothing in the Constitution prevented that. Of course they wanted to continue the billion dollar enterprise that was legal. The Confederate soldier fought because his land and homes were invaded by an army sent by a Tyrant.

What's more honorable, defending your homeland from a foreign invasion, or invading your neighbor because some Tyrant sent you?

I think the honorable thing is for some people to be able, by law, to own other people.

It was USA law that made slavery legal.

 

[regent]

The Confederacy seceded because nothing in the Constitution prevented that. Of course they wanted to continue the billion dollar enterprise that was legal. The Confederate soldier fought because his land and homes were invaded by an army sent by a Tyrant.

What's more honorable, defending your homeland from a foreign invasion, or invading your neighbor because some Tyrant sent you?

I think the honorable thing is for some people to be able, by law, to own other people.

It was USA law that made slavery legal.

Sounds like laws are not always honorable. For example are consumer protection laws honorable or dishonorable?